Skate Buying Adventures

[emitche]

I remember at the start of this board someone mentioning that men's skates might work for a wider foot. I'm a Jacksons women's 8.5 E and ended up getting a men's wide boot (7W). The women's boot I wanted didn't have the width I needed and ordering customs would have cost $150 more and taken a long time. So I ordered a men's stock boot that fit great. The arches hurt at first, but eventually broke in and I don't feel them anymore.

How many hours have you skated and sat at home in the skates? If it's been over 5 hours, it's very possible that the skates you have are broken in but just a poor fit for your feet.

I hope you can get them to work out, but if not, perhaps you can sell them.

[Orianna2000]

I've skated in them perhaps 2.5 to 3 hours. Not sure how long I've worn them at home, maybe three hours? But not walking around, just sitting. They don't really feel broken in, the boot is still very stiff, to the point where I have to leave the top two hooks unlaced and fasten them with hair bands instead, because otherwise they're too stiff and I can't bend my knees. The rink manager who examined them said they probably weren't broken in yet, and that's why he was reluctant to punch or stretch them.

Update: We went to a running shoe store where they sell Superfeet. They did not carry the yellow Superfeet, which are for ice skates. Apparently those are a specialty item and have to be ordered online. Instead, they sold us 3/4 inserts meant for women's shoes with less than 1" heel. I guess they don't carry the kind for higher heels, since it's a store for athletic shoes. In any case, the prevailing attitude was, "You might as well try them. If they don't help, bring them back and we'll try something else." When I tried them in the skates, they did seem to take the pressure off the arch. They made the ball of my foot hurt, though, right in the center. The package warns that discomfort is common at first, until your feet adjust to being properly supported, so that may disappear with time. There's no telling how they'll feel on the ice, but well see. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Someone asked for my measurements and photos of my feet, so here we go. My right foot (my bigger foot) seems to be approximately 9 and 1/4 inches in length. It is 4 inches across the widest part, or 9 and 3/4 inches if measured all the way around. According to those charts, that would put me in a 6 E or maybe 6.5 E for Jackson skates. When I tried the 6.5, my toes hit the front, which is why I went with a 7.

Top View:


Side View:

[FigureSpins]

It takes hours of skating to break in skates - at least 12-15, in my experience for the stiffer Jacksons.

Sometimes, Omega Sports has the SuperFeet Yellow in stock, but it is the end of the recreational skating season, so they might have sold out.  You can just order them - sign up for the mailing list and get a discount coupon or ask the store manager to place the order and save shipping.  (Deals change from time to time of course)

[irenar5]

Your arch also looks very flat, so perhaps you can talk to your skate tech about mounting your blades slightly to the inside , so that you are not fighting your natural tendency to roll to the inside.   At our rink there are a lot of skaters with pronation, so the mounting seems to solve some of the issues according to our tech.

[Orianna2000]

Amazon carries the yellow Superfeet, and there's also a "custom gray" Superfeet insert that's for skates, but custom-fitted. I'd have to drive five hours to get to a dealer that sells them, but if the 3/4 arches don't work, we'll probably do that.

I do have trouble staying on my outside edges, but it never occurred to me that it might be caused by my flat feet. Makes sense, though, if I'm rolling inward. As far as remounting my blades, I've been told that most skate techs are reluctant to do anything with PVC soles. I guess they aren't as easy to work with as leather soles. But I'll definitely keep that in mind.

Would shifting the blades help with the arch pain, too? Or just with the pronation?

[irenar5]

I would think mounting may help with pain if you lessen the pressure over the inside part of the boot?   I would check with a tech about that.

I have normal arches and had some similar pain with one of Riedell models initially, but it went away after a few hours of skating (3-5). Your pain sounds pretty extreme, though.  Perhaps you could email pics of your feet to the manufacturer (Jackson, right?) and ask them for a suggestion?

[sampaguita]

Jackson has a new model: the Elle, which is made in widths B,C,D and has a stiffness rating of 35 (the Classique and the Freestyle have stiffness ratings of 45). I do not know which US retailers already have the Elle in stock, but maybe you can email Jackson Marketing about your fit problem and they might have some helpful comments.

Based on my experience, Jackson replies after around 2-3 days, but they are very cautious about recommending sizes. Maybe you can tell them about your problem so they can give you a more assertive answer. 

[Orianna2000]

Any idea how much the Elles cost? I saw them at Jackson's website, but I haven't been able to find any online retailers that carry them. That might be an option, if the inserts don't work. A less stiff boot would be nice, too.

I have my skating class tomorrow, so I'll get to try the 3/4 inserts and see how they do.

Here's a question. I was told to soak my socks in hot water and then put on my skates and sit in them until the socks cool, to help break in the boots faster. Would I do this with or without the 3/4 inserts?

Also, would the 3/4 inserts work as well if I put them underneath the boot's insole? Or do they have to be above the insole to work? I only ask because the inserts are hard plastic and the edge of the insert, where it ends just beneath the ball of my foot, creates a little ridge that rubs against the bottom of my foot and bothers me. I have always been extra sensitive to bumps and ridges and "things" in my shoes. My mom calls me "the Princess and the Pea", LOL. Maybe I wouldn't notice the ridge if I wore socks, but I wear skating tights, so it's noticeable. Due to the nature of the inserts, I'm not sure if they'll work if I put them under the boot's insole, but I was wondering about it. Any thoughts on that?

[FigureSpins]

I don't anyone who still does the "damp socks" approach.  The boot paddings today soak up that moisture.  Two experienced fitters told me it makes the skates moldy unless you air dry them well afterwards, so they don't recommend the technique any more.

The new technique (which TimDavid clued me into) is to put plastic bags over your socks and then wear the skates for skating.  Makes your feet get warm/sweat but the moisture doesn't get into the boots, it just heats them up to mold a bit.  Also provides a little protection against rubbing and pain.

I would definitely put the insoles inside during break in - you want the boot to mold with them in place so your foot's in the right places.  Using a hairdryer to pre-warm the boots will accelerate the process.

I know what you mean about the ridge - I can feel it too.  You'll have to try it both ways to see if it can work for you or if you need another insole.  I would first try the insole under the original insoles or a flat replacement insole.  That's one of the things I liked about the Superfeet insoles - they're full-length, so they can just replace the entire insole.  (Although I really like the leather insoles from Klingbeil much more than foam, felt or fabric.)

[sarahspins]

Would shifting the blades help with the arch pain, too? Or just with the pronation?

If your arch pain is actually muscle cramping from trying to compensate for the pronation, moving the blades over a bit may help... particularly if you find yourself "stuck" on inside edges much of the time, however, from reading the last page or so of this thread including your pictures and measurements, I have to say that I don't think you're ever going to be 100% comfortable in these skates, and that is because they're simply not wide enough for your feet... no amount of trying different insoles will help that... stretching may help, but that can only do so much and I really don't think you would be able to get enough width that way.  My feet are pretty close to the same length as yours, but not quite as wide (mine measure 9 1/8" around) and I can't imagine skatig in a C width boot... it would be torture.  I wear a 6.5 with an E ball with a B heel.

Wearing too narrow boots goes beyond "can I get my feet in them and lace them up" - you're basically forcing your foot into an unnatural position because it can't lay flat (side to side) in the boot.  Your foot actually has 4 arches... and I think compromising the metatarsal arch is really what contributes to a vast majority of foot pain, but more importantly the entire foot can't function correctly.

I definitely understand this is a frustrating process (I have been badly fit more than once in my skating life - one of those resulted in surgery to fix a problem created by trying to "tough it out" with a pair of boots that was much too narrow), but I would definitely contact Jackson and see which models can be made in an E (or EE) width.. I know that the Premiere boot can be made as an E because I asked about it last year, and the Elle and Freestyle may also be included, I just don't know.  The normal fee for ordering a non-stock (or if you need it split - narrower heel with a wider ball) width is $50.. if you want to make more changes than that to a boot, the cost goes up significantly, but I do have to say that these are your feet, and it's not worth risking an injury or permanent damage to save some money now - it's worth spending a little more to make sure that they fit well.

I would honestly consider trying to return the classique's - whoever sold them to you did so knowing they were not even close to the right size, which is really questionable IMO.

I would not wear wet socks in your boots... as mentioned it's really not a good idea.

[Orianna2000]

That's one of the things I liked about the Superfeet insoles - they're full-length, so they can just replace the entire insole.  (Although I really like the leather insoles from Klingbeil much more than foam, felt or fabric.)

My husband uses the yellow (skating) Superfeet and according to him, the package specifically says to put the insert in underneath your regular insoles. It doesn't replace the insole, it augments it. You would get to keep your nice leather insoles, but still have the benefit of the Superfeet insert underneath them. I thought it sounded strange, but he insists that's what the instructions said to do.

I would honestly consider trying to return the classique's - whoever sold them to you did so knowing they were not even close to the right size, which is really questionable IMO.

The guy who sold me the Classiques didn't fit me for them. Our pro-shop owner is new to the business and hasn't a clue about fitting skates. First he sold me a pair of size 8 Glaciers (when I'm a 6.5!) and when it became clear that I needed a smaller size in a wider width, he offered to special order whichever skates I wanted to try. I guessed that size 7 would fit best, and they didn't come wider than C, so that's what we ordered. He didn't check the fit when they arrived, he just handed them to me and let me decide whether to buy them or not.

The thing is, they don't feel that tight in the toes. I mean, the left boot is fine. The right boot touches my foot at the widest part, but it's not painful, just slightly annoying when I'm walking around. I don't even notice it while skating. The only pain comes from the arches. I can see how the problem might be that my foot is too wide across the arch, and that's why I'm feeling the bump. It makes sense, especially since the left boot takes longer before the arch starts to hurt. That foot must be a little narrower than the other.

I would definitely contact Jackson and see which models can be made in an E (or EE) width.. I know that the Premiere boot can be made as an E because I asked about it last year, and the Elle and Freestyle may also be included, I just don't know. 

I'm uncertain about special ordering an extra wide width, for a couple of reasons.

1. Unless I can get the Elle, it looks like it would have to be a skate that's stiffer than what I have now. I'm only in Adult 2, I'm learning edges and two-foot turns and pivots. My skates are already so stiff that I have to use elastic hair bands at the top two speed hooks instead of lacing them up, because otherwise I can't bend at the knees properly. I can't imagine a boot that's any stiffer!

2. I would have to special order them through my pro-shop (if they're capable of ordering special widths, which they might not be) or else drive 5 hours to the nearest figure skating shop and have them special order the E width. That means it would be difficult to return them. Most places I've seen won't give refunds once the skates have been sharpened, which means I can't test them on the ice to see if they truly work. So if they're still too narrow, or if the arches are still too high, or if there's some new problem--then I'm stuck with a fourth pair of skates that I can't wear.

Even so, I will give this consideration. Right now I feel like Tantalus: every step I take towards the water, the water recedes. It's right there, but it's forever out of reach.

The normal fee for ordering a non-stock (or if you need it split - narrower heel with a wider ball) width is $50.. if you want to make more changes than that to a boot, the cost goes up significantly, but I do have to say that these are your feet, and it's not worth risking an injury or permanent damage to save some money now - it's worth spending a little more to make sure that they fit well.

I agree that it's better to pay a little extra and reduce the risk of damage. It's just a LOT of money when this is only a hobby for me. I love skating and I would hate to have to quit. But at what point do I say, "This is costing too much"? 

Regarding the split width boots, how do you find out what heel width you need? I suspect I have narrow heels, since I've always had to add stick-on heel grip pads to my dress shoes. Without them, my heels slip out of the shoes with every step. In my old Riedells, my heel constantly slipped when I walked, unless I laced so tightly that it cut off my circulation. I haven't noticed that problem with the Classiques, but they have thick memory foam around the heel and ankles. Sooner or later, that's going to wear down and then there might be a problem with heel slippage. Especially with the new inserts, which lift my foot up slightly--it means my heel is no longer in the same place, so there might be slipping. I won't know for sure until I try skating in them. But in any case, is there a way of measuring to find out whether you need a narrower heel?

Is it possible to get skates that are extra-wide and are split-width with a narrow heel width? How much extra would something like that cost?

Just out of curiosity, if my boots are too narrow (and I agree that they probably are), will the inserts make a difference? They'll lift my foot up to where the boot is slightly wider, right? So will that help prevent damage to my feet? I'm just wondering whether I should start saving up for a pair of extra-wide skates even if the inserts stop the pain.

[Isk8NYC]

I checked my Superfeet directions.  They say to remove the original insole, put it on top of the Superfeet insole to measure and trace before cutting the SFinsole.  The instructions then say to put "the insole" inside.  "The insole" is the Superfeet insole, which is an aftermarket replacement insole, not an augmentation.  There is a comment about dress shoes without removable insoles and how you're supposed to put them on top of the glued-in insole or get their slim version, but that's not the same thing.
http://www.superfeet.com/users-guide/#original

I tried the superfeet under my leather insoles, but because Klingbeil had already created an orthotic-like insole, it wouldn't fit comfortably.  (Too thick and double arch supports!)  Glad it works for your husband, though.

Slightly OT:

Pro Shops just don't carry inventory anymore, especially for adults, absolutely for men's sizes.
Adults have to expect to order their skates.

Since I am in between sizes and wanted stock boots that weren't a model they usually carried, I took a risk on my Jackson boots.  I wish I had paid the shipping/return cost on two different-sized pairs in order to try them both on.  I think I would have found one width smaller to be a better fit.

Hindsight is 20/20, but that's my 2¢

[Sk8tmum]

Call Jackson. Their people are good, and they want you to be happy (and a long-time customer). Or, e-mail them.  I would suggest that if you FAX them tracings of your feet, and measurements (go on the Harlicks website for how to measure a foot, and have somebody do it) - they will help you out.

It's a choice.  You can pay now for skates, or you can maybe end up paying the podiatrist/physiotherapist etc potentially after you damage your feet. I know that's it's hard to find the cash ... my physio rates start at $85 for an assessment, and $60 for treatment.  Fortunately, my benefit plan covered the $1,000+ that it cost (and still costs) for the damage to my kid's achilles from misfitting skates.

What about the guy who sold you the skates?  Any chance he'll help you out?

[Orianna2000]

I doubt the pro-shop guy will do anything. I've had the skates for a few months now, they've been sharpened and skated in. I wouldn't expect him to take them back at this point. And it's not his fault they're too narrow. He didn't measure me or try to fit me. He just was the relay, ordering the skates on my behalf.

I told my husband about the huge discrepancy between what I measure at and what my skates' width is and he was surprised. Surprised and resigned. If the inserts don't make a tremendous improvement, I imagine he'll be willing to buy me a pair of extra-wide skates. He won't be terribly happy about it, but he'll do it. He likes the difference skating has made in my life. I have more stamina now, I'm getting exercise. It's good for me and he knows that. So he'll do what needs to be done.

[sarahspins]

Regarding narrower heels or split width.. it's not that I have a "narrow" heel necessarily, it's that I have a completely average sized heel compared to the rest of my very wide foot.  It's a bit of a trial and error thing... I had heel slipping issues before I had custom skates as a teenager (before my feet were as wide as they are now) so I just went with the split width when I got my Jacksons.

As far as width "feeling" okay.. I have a pair of Harlick Finalist boots (I bought them for the blades they had on them) that are a 6.5A.  I can "fit" my feet into them and lace them up fine, but I really wouldn't want to skate in them... it's not overtly painful right away, but just leaving them on my feet for a while gets pretty uncomfortable... and that's without any weight on them, I can't imagine how much worse it would be on the ice.

I still feel that ANY pro shop who would just blindly order a pair of boots and hand them over without checking fit is irresponsible.  At that point why not just order from any online store and most likely pay much less?  There are some online stores out there that really are top notch and even ordering with special options is not a problem.

I would definitely recommend that you talk to someone at Jackson.. you can call or email and they are extremely helpful and usually reply to email within 24 hours. Even if you don't end up ordering something else now, you would at least know for the future what they suggest in terms of size/width/stiffness, and maybe avoid some of this with your next pair.  Boots don't last forever, so it's still information you'll need at some point

[aussieskater]

Orianna, I'm sorry you're having such a problem with your boots.  Given how much time has passed, I agree with you that the pro shop will likely not be willing to help out much at this stage.  Sk8tmum gave you good advice in telling you to contact Jackson directly - if they can't help you, it's likely they can put you in touch with a recommended dealer who can.

If you do decide to change boots but stick with Jackson, you are going to need to get to a Jackson-recommended fitter who will stand behind what they sell you, and make good any errors (eg: incorrect sizing!)  It could also be that the Jackson last is not the best fit to your foot; and you need to try on other brands.

Is it possible to get skates that are extra-wide and are split-width with a narrow heel width? How much extra would something like that cost?

Yes they can; that's what they did for me.  I take a Jackson 9, and and measured A heel, E ball; so 3 width differences from stock.   (I then punched the boots out mercilessly right at the ball, so they're now effectively an F in that spot!!  )  I just grabbed a tape and measured my feet for reference (remember that my measurements are not professional).  As best as I can tell, at the ball I measure 9.5 inches around; at the arch just behind the ball I measure 9.25 inches around.

Jackson make the heel one size narrower than the ball as a matter of course, so an A heel would come standard with a B ball.  Then go out to a C ball (1st change) then D (2nd change) then E (3rd change).  I'm in Australia and the pro shop I ordered from charged a pretty significant uplift on the semi-custom fees, so I'm not sure what you'd pay locally.  I think I read somewhere that they charge $50 for the first change from stock, or $170 (? - can't remember exactly now) for 2-4 changes from stock.

I don't know for sure, but think the first level Jackson will do split widths might be the Freestyle (stiffness 45, same as Classiques)?  Not sure if they take the Freestyle past the standard D width though.   I do know that they'll take the Premiere (stiffness 65) out past D, as that is what my friend had to buy to get a wider boot.

The thing is, they don't feel that tight in the toes. I mean, the left boot is fine. The right boot touches my foot at the widest part, but it's not painful, just slightly annoying when I'm walking around. I don't even notice it while skating. The only pain comes from the arches.

Could you post a photo of your boots from the top (inside with the tongue pulled forward) and sides, and put an arrow on the photos where they're hurting?

[Orianna2000]

I'm going to investigate the Elle skates, because they're slightly less stiff than what I have, and they come in a D width. If I can find someplace to try them on, that would be ideal. I'd like to find out whether I need a split width or not. Is there a way to measure your heel to see what size it is, or do you just have to try skates on and see?

Here's the photo of the inside of my skate. I removed the insole, so you can see the area where it kind of swells up at the arch. That's where it hurts. I drew a line to indicate the area, but really it's the whole raised area, not just the edge, but the whole raised arch. Feels like I have a rock inside my boot when I skate, if that helps.

[sarahspins]

I just thought of something - have you tried skating in the boots without *any* insole in there to see if your arches feel the same?  Some skates don't come with thicker insoles like Jacksons do (like SP Teri or Harlick), and while Jacksons may be made to fit best with that insole, I don't think there is any rule that says you have to use it, or even a similar style insole.  If you don't want to skate on the bare boot inside, you could get the thin flat "trim to fit" (and they're cheap - about $3) insoles that are sold everywhere and cut them to size (and not be out much to try it).

[Orianna2000]

The insoles are pretty flat. The arch bump is built into the skate itself, so I don't know that removing the insole would change anything. But I'll give it a try tomorrow. As you can see in the photo, there are nail heads and stuff, so I would need some kind of insole to protect my tights from snagging. We're still considering the "custom gray" skating insoles from Superfeet, so that's an option, too.

[sampaguita]

It seems that it is an arch problem. If you say that the toes are okay and the heel is not slipping, then the boot has to be adjusted only in the arch area.

I am with the suggestion that you send these pictures to Jackson. Like Isk8NYC, I wouldn't recommend using the wet socks technique -- if those won't work, they would significantly decrease the resale value of your skates. The Classiques aren't heat moldable, so before trying anything, I think it's best to consult Jackson.

If Jackson tells you there's nothing that can be done, then maybe reselling is the best option. I know it's not the most desirable solution, but at least you'll be able to recover some of the cost.

As for trying another brand: I was able to fit Edea Overtures, and I don't think they would suit your feet since they are more suitable for high arches. I remember you had Riedell before the Jackson, what width were you in? How did it feel in the arch? Perhaps all you need are wider Riedells (men's sizes, perhaps). The Riedell 133, which costs about the same as the Classique, is heat moldable (I had mine heat molded at a pro shop, no problems with the sole at all). It might be a model worth considering if you decide to sell the Classique.

[Bunny Hop]

I know the agony of arch pain, and how it makes it impossible to skate for more than about ten minutes at a time (half hour private lessons were torture for me). Although I don't think my pain as from the same cause as yours, the solution was still to buy new boots. I did manage to sell my old pair on Ebay though. As they had no creases and only one small scratch, they were pretty much as new, so the buyer was very happy with them. So you may well get some money back on your previous pair.

I also agree that perhaps a different brand might be the answer, given the nature of the problem with the Jacksons.

[Orianna2000]

Unfortunately, Riedells do NOT fit my feet at all. I tried numerous versions and they all were uncomfortable. My previous pair of skates were Riedell 110s, size 7. The arches were fine, but they only came in full-sizes, so they were slightly too big. And they didn't come in wide widths, so they were too narrow. The shop lady punched the toe box out, but the punch-outs shrank, so by the time we got back home (a five hour drive) the skates were too narrow again and the edge of the punch-out hit right at the widest part of my foot, rubbing painfully. Plus, the back of the ankle cut into my ankle quite painfully. It's not that noticeable when I'm skating with knees bent, but the problem is that the boot angles inward, while my ankle angles outward. Hard leather wins against soft flesh! When I stand upright, the upper back edge of the boot cuts into my ankle (achilles tendon). Even with Bunka gel sleeves, it hurts, and I worried about doing permanent damage to the tendon. Doing pivots was impossible, because I couldn't arch my foot the right way without the ankle cutting in and causing agony. Now, maybe it would be different if I tried a pair of Riedells that actually were wide enough. But I just haven't had good experiences with that brand.

If I need new skates, we'll probably drive somewhere with a larger selection than the skating shop we visited in St. Louis. They were pretty small and were out of stock of almost every skate in my size. I'd like to be able to try different heel widths, and perhaps a few different brands. Maybe someplace in Chicago? It'd be an 8 or 9 hour drive, I think, but I don't know what choice we have. I'd really like to try the Elle. I definitely don't want to go stiffer, because the Classiques are already too advanced for the level I'm skating at. I can't do forward stroking without scraping the toe picks, because they're so huge. But we'll see.

I'll try contacting Jackson and see if they have any advice. Thanks for that suggestion.

This afternoon I'll get to try skating with the new 3/4 inserts, so we'll see how those work. At this point, I know they are probably only a temporary solution, but maybe they'll make skating in the Classiques tolerable enough that I can have time to save up for a new pair of wider skates. I'd rather not go into debt at this point (using the credit card for new skates) if at all possible. 

[Sk8tmum]

I do know a few skaters with feet "like" yours (yes, it's guessing based on pictures and descriptions) who have been well suited by Risports.  Something you might want to look at if you do get somewhere with a decent selection.

[sampaguita]

Risports? Interesting! I thought they were supposed to have a really narrow last. Just another reason not to typecast skate brands.

[Skittl1321]

Based on the line you drew- it does seem the skate is too narrow.  If that bump is on the SIDE of the skate, and not the bottom, your foot shouldn't be resting on it.

Without a fitter who knows what they are doing- I don't know how you can tell if you need split widths, and unfortunately you can't order them and try them and return them, since they are "customized".

Skate problems suck.  My first skates (which i actually tried several pairs, and paid a fortune in shipping) felt great sitting down, but as soon as I skated in them (and rendered them unreturnable) they were horrible. I could only skate for 10 minutes at a time. They were too narrow, so I found used skates that fit my budget and sold my brand new ones for barely anything.  It is so expensive to figure out what works.