eliminating CD discs a possibility?

[jjane45]

Another tech question: do you think your rink is in the position of using mp3 files instead of CDs for playing music on practice ice?

I was talking to someone today about how many CDs are burnt for each skating show (a lot), and tried to argue replacing CDs with mp3 files actually streamline things better and greener.

Our rink goes through a few CD players a year and still seems to have frequent tech glitches while playing music (keep holding that opening pose, kiddo!) either due to bad CDs or bad CD player. Directly playing from a computer probably is smoother, mp3 files fare so much better in general.

And people cut music on computers anyways, so skater can get the output on USB drives equally easily as on CDs. By storing files locally on computer for the whole season, skater does not need to turn in a CD every time, and only brings in a new file if music cuts changed.

I imagine it will reduce wait time between program run thrus, by queuing programs on a flexible music player.

Does your rink accept music formats other than CD for practice ice? What do you see as cons for mp3 files? Equipment should be cheap, maybe training monitors will be an issue?

Related thread: Programming music playing order for practice ice

[kiwiskater]

It sounds like a great idea but as with all removable storage media there is the potential for nasties to lurk in things like USB sticks!

My mother works as an preschool teacher, they use removable drives all the time and every workplaces she's been to have been compromised by a virus at some time, I think in part because they are small businesses without the IT power to ward off such attacks that perhaps some of the bigger businesses do, and in part because they are exposed to removable media on a frequent basis...

but I suspect that CDs will likely go the way of the video cassette sometime - after all I can no longer walk down to the supermarket & pluck a video off the shelf because I need to plug in my old VHS to record a programme on the other channel at the same time, if I hunt around I can but in reality hard drive players are driving the need for these kinds of media down...

[Sk8tmum]

MP3s make it too easy to steal a whole bunch of people's music too; if you have them "loaded" up on the computer, someone can simply download everyone's programs and have a whole raft of music that can be used elsewhere. 

[karne]

MP3s make it too easy to steal a whole bunch of people's music too; if you have them "loaded" up on the computer, someone can simply download everyone's programs and have a whole raft of music that can be used elsewhere. 

I agree with this. The problem of "stolen" music would spiral dramatically out of control.

I also think it's just too plain difficult. Where would the computer be kept? How would the line be monitored? What are you going to do about the gap between play times (or lack thereof)? What about running order, who decides that?

I think in the end it would be just as fiddly as working with a CD player. Not worth the hassle IMO. Maybe for competitions. But not for practice.

[Clarice]

Some of our skaters just load their programs onto their phones, and jack the phones into the CD player.  Works fine for practice, but wouldn't be practical for competition.  I did a competition once which had hired a service to do all the music - you emailed them your mp3 file, and they loaded all the music onto their computer and played it at the competition.  It was some kind of test run for that service.  I haven't seen it again, so I suppose they found some bugs that had to be worked out, but it seemd to work great at that competition.

[Isk8NYC]

There was a music management system advertised in various skating magazines a few years ago.  I can't remember the name, but it acted as a music monitor as well, making sure everyone took turns fairly.  The music had to be uploaded to the main system, which was in an office with controls rinkside.  There are two reasons that the rinkside music machinery fails: abuse and cold/humidity.  This allegedly resolved the problem.  I think it was pricey and required access to the machinery in order to even listen to a prospective bit of music over the soundsystem.  While it gave the management centralized control over the soundsystem, it also meant they had to be involved when a new song had to be added, even temporarily.

At our NY skating shows, the music maestro used to take the CDs and iPod songs and load them into his system somehow - I think it was a laptop or hard drive.  He used that to play the songs for the show instead of juggling discs and iPods.  He was a professional DJ for weddings and celebrations, so he was accustomed to dealing with music requests and so on.  It was his own equipment, although he donated its use and his time since his DD was a skater. 


The reason competitions and tests want a CD with only that song on it is to prevent delays in figuring out which track is the correct one on a multi-track disc.  The different types of iPods, mp3 players, cell phones, etc would be a nightmare for the music person.  I know that, when I use a student's phone to find and play the track, every one has a different interface and timeout setting.  It gets frustrating.

I like the idea of reusable USB drives or memory cards, if there's a laptop in use.  It's very easy to scan an external drive like that with a good anti-virus before importing the mp3.  However, not everyone uses mp3 format because they use other tools, like SoundForge, that generates different music-format files.


I do agree completely that the CDs are a waste.  For every competition event/skater, I burn three CD's.  They can use the same ones throughout the season, if the music doesn't change, but they just get tossed when they get a new program/music.  The CD+rw discs are reusable, but not every competition accepts them - some specify CD-r or CD+r.

[nicklaszlo]

MP3s make it too easy to steal a whole bunch of people's music too; if you have them "loaded" up on the computer, someone can simply download everyone's programs and have a whole raft of music that can be used elsewhere. 

So?  The skater still has their music.  Why would they care if someone else has it too?   The copyright holder might be upset, but other skaters and the rink need not worry about that.

Of course access control is necessary, but more to prevent people from playing music too much or with inappropriate lyrics.

[Skate@Delaware]

for practice, we just email our music to the skating director and our coach, them onto their iTouch/iPad. It works out great. We can no longer use CD's at our rink because that system has to be turned on at the front, and switched back & forth at the front (between CD's and the electronic device input). It's a pain, so they just cut out CD's completely except for competitions.

[jjane45]

Good to see it implemented nicely at your rink, Skate@Delaware! I don't see my rink pioneering in technical aspects, but it's just nice to discuss.

I think in part because they are small businesses without the IT power to ward off such attacks that perhaps some of the bigger businesses do, and in part because they are exposed to removable media on a frequent basis...

Yeah, a strong anti-virus program as Isk8NYC mentioned, or follow what school / library computers do by resetting the system files automatically everytime the computer restarts. Data saved on a different drive stay intact.

As an afterthought, email system is probably safer than USB drives.

MP3s make it too easy to steal a whole bunch of people's music too; if you have them "loaded" up on the computer, someone can simply download everyone's programs and have a whole raft of music that can be used elsewhere.  

If it's a concern, an alternative is to request mp3 files for every session, copy it to the computer for the current session, and files get cleaned up when computer restarts after the session.

For skaters who forget their CDs behind frequently (cough cough), it's probably not a serious issue.

The computer stays password protected, of course.

I also think it's just too plain difficult. Where would the computer be kept? How would the line be monitored? What are you going to do about the gap between play times (or lack thereof)? What about running order, who decides that?

Computers are getting very cheap, either use the same safeguarding procedures as the CD player, or lock up the computer into case and only leave the mouse, keyboard, and USB extension cable accessible.

I haven't looked into automatically adding gap between music tracks, pretty confident some music players out there can achieve this with plugins. If not, manually insert a "silent" track of desired length, say 20-30 seconds.

Since this proposal really only replaces the very technical part of music playing, whatever procedure was in place for running order and monitoring would stay.

There are two reasons that the rinkside music machinery fails: abuse and cold/humidity.

The different types of iPods, mp3 players, cell phones, etc would be a nightmare for the music person.  I know that, when I use a student's phone to find and play the track, every one has a different interface and timeout setting.  It gets frustrating.

...not everyone uses mp3 format because they use other tools, like SoundForge, that generates different music-format files.

I did not think of how long a rink side computer would last due to humidity, our rink does have a separate booth very close to the ceiling, at the top of bleachers.

The requirement will be USB drive containing only the relevant program music file(s), skaters don't hand monitors CDs with 12 tracks either. Alternatively, if wifi is available, skaters can opt to email in the music file ahead of time.

I have not used SoundForge before, but my understanding is as long as it outputs in some standard format, conversion to mp3 is extremely easy. If not... there is Audacity.

Thank you everyone for an interesting discussion!

[Skittl1321]

So?  The skater still has their music.  Why would they care if someone else has it too?   The copyright holder might be upset, but other skaters and the rink need not worry about that.

Because the skater may have spent a lot of money on that particular cut, and they don't want someone taking it a season later without asking/paying for it.

I cut my own music (badly) but I know people who spend TONS for it to be done professionally.  I know I wouldn't share if I did that.

[Query]

More advantages of MP3s over CDs:

• 
  Some CD players won't play back disks made by some CD recorders.
  
• CDs are easily scratched, and may fail to play.
  
• If people casually grab CDs between their grubby fingers, and leave dirt or finger oil on them, they may fail to play. I can't believe how many people I've seen do this to CDs and DVDs.
  
• I think CD players vary a bit in playback speed. So with CDs, you could be marked poorly, because your music went over the alloted time.

---

If you can play music from any source (CD player, computer, etc.) that has a line-out, speaker-out or headphone-out jack, you can record it on one of the MP3 players that is also an MP3 recorder. E.g., see

 http://reviews.cnet.com/4321-6490_7-6543950.html

All you need is a (stereo) mini-plug cable with jacks of the right sizes.

Likewise, if you have MP3 recorder software on your PC (if the program is short, Windows built in "Sound Recorder" will do), you can likewise use it to record anything the PC or other source plays, by connect the "line-out", "speaker-out", or "headphone out" jack to the "line-in jack". Then you may want to use something to convert the sound file to MP3, which many players can play.

None of this eliminates the legal issues associated with copying music, or playing it to an audience - you are supposed to obtain permission for either. If you load music files into a PC, products like Windows Media Player index them and probably inform Microsoft you have it on the PC. (If you don't believe me, read the license agreements for Windows Media Player, and most software that handles music files.)

[Skate@Delaware]

at competitions I go to, there is always one (or sometimes more than one) CD that won't play...usually the person burned it as an MP3 instead of an audio CD. It's an easy mistake to make in iTunes and Windows Media Player.  Or, they burned it onto a CD-RW instead of the standard CD-R.  I almost did that once.

I'm always leaving my music behind...I have forgotten my music at about 5 competitions. I didn't at my last one because my coach reminded me. 

[icedancer]

I think that for Regionals and Sectionals there are often back-ups made on a computer (via mp3? don't know) -= I have seen this, but not experienced it directly.  I would guess this also is the same for National and International competitions, so yes, I could see this as a reality for smaller non-qualifying competitions (and some which actually are much larger than, say, Skate America!

[karne]

I'm always leaving my music behind...I have forgotten my music at about 5 competitions. I didn't at my last one because my coach reminded me. 

All my music is on coloured CDs (just easier for me to sort them out at home). My original practice CD was green, and my two competition CDs were orange. I left the green CD at practice one time and it went walkabout  I thought I'd never see it again. Yesterday my coach handed it to me!  My response: "Yay, my green CD!"

OT, but it made several of the other kids laugh.

[jjane45]

I think that for Regionals and Sectionals there are often back-ups made on a computer (via mp3? don't know) -= I have seen this, but not experienced it directly.  I would guess this also is the same for National and International competitions, so yes, I could see this as a reality for smaller non-qualifying competitions (and some which actually are much larger than, say, Skate America!

Interesting. Anyone else has more info on this?

In the meanwhile, I have a new thread on the possibility of automating the music playing order by software. It's probably a boring read, but I had a lot of fun writing it

[PinkLaces]

For the small ice show at the seasonal rink, all the music was put on a couple ipods - show coordinator's & skating director's. It was played from the ipod for practices and the show Once it was on their it went pretty smoothly.  Getting everyone's music on there was another story.  Sometimes people had a hard time e-mailing music files.  Usually it went on a CD anyway and was then uploaded onto the ipods.  Another problem was that the ipods and computers got cold and would stop working.

[FigureSpins]

There was a music management system advertised in various skating magazines a few years ago.  I can't remember the name, but it acted as a music monitor as well, making sure everyone took turns fairly.  The music had to be uploaded to the main system, which was in an office with controls rinkside. 

It's called RinkMusic: http://rinkmusicinc.com/index.html

The system uses RFID keytags to allow the skater to request a play of their music.
I like the "memorized volume settings" feature - how many times have people used their ipods and turned the receiver volume all the way, leaving everyone to meet a "wall of sound" when the next skater pops in a CD?

[jjane45]

I saw rinkmusic in action for the first time today and was very impressed. Easy to use and no monitoring needed.

Scanner is by the rink side, main euipment is located in pro shop and can still play CD from there if one asks nicely. The key card is $10, stores multiple tracks, and can be used at other rinks as well. Skater swipes card, takes opening position, name is announced and music plays. Whomever swipes next gets queued.

The person who I talked to said the system saved tons of time, works perfectly once the initial technical glitches got sorted out.

It's called RinkMusic: http://rinkmusicinc.com/index.html

The system uses RFID keytags to allow the skater to request a play of their music.
I like the "memorized volume settings" feature - how many times have people used their ipods and turned the receiver volume all the way, leaving everyone to meet a "wall of sound" when the next skater pops in a CD?

[hopskipjump]

Rink music is nice and they can set limits on the # of play times for each skater in a session.  ha ha...the name call out is hysterical though.  A hockey dad asked me why fjkhnilga hafhf was and I said the skater's name.  The skater's name and how rinkmusic says their name are not very close at all.    

Adding - I'd never send music online for a comp.  The two that offered it this year had nothing but problems.  A cd (tested on a couple different cd players) and a back up cd, is king here.

[TreSk8sAZ]

I think that for Regionals and Sectionals there are often back-ups made on a computer (via mp3? don't know) -= I have seen this, but not experienced it directly.  I would guess this also is the same for National and International competitions, so yes, I could see this as a reality for smaller non-qualifying competitions (and some which actually are much larger than, say, Skate America!

This is correct. The skater must bring a CD to the competition marked with their names, club, etc. on it. The music is then loaded onto a computer that stores the digital file. This is the music that is played with the CD also there as backup. The digital files of the skaters moving on are transferred to the next competition. The skater must still bring and turn in their CDs as backup. Music must also be sent ahead if there has been a change to the cut after Regionals.