Concussion moves survey

[jjane45]

Saw Skittl's comment about 8 step mohawk being a "concussion move", coincidentally I just had a conversation with group coach about which elements are guilty of causing more falls on the head. He observed that one foot spin is the number one culprit (raising my hand), then beginning 3-turns and mohawks. Adults also tend to fall on their head more on back outside 3 turns compared to kids. I found his observations interesting and have the following questions:

What do you observe as the top "concussion moves", in freestyle elements or specific steps in dance / MITF, other than randomly tripping over toepicks?

Does the risk of head injury increase as skaters move up in levels while developing better skating skills? (half jumps vs. triple jumps, two foot spin vs. flying camels)

What do you see as the top impact areas in the worst head injuries, other than the back of the head? (Yeah I am considering to put more padding back into my hat, lol)

[sarahspins]

I have never (ever) hit my head skating.. and I've had plenty of falls, and since I still struggle with back 3's I've even had some recently (I could do them as a kid but they terrify me now) but usually my falls are of the "slip off the back of my blade and land on my butt" variety.  I think having good core strength helps - I tend to "ball up" when I fall, and I just let it happen, so I'm not usually flailing - I think it's the flailing (often in an attempt not to fall) that causes more problems than the fall itself would have

I have gotten fairly impressive hematomas on my upper thigh/hip area from falling on doubles (I didn't always use padding - I probably should have relied on it more than I did), and then there was that one time I dislocated my knee trying to "save" an axel landing (it was over-rotated) during a program run through - it was a scenario that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been under pressure to "get through" the whole program without bailing/falling on jumps (I was in a lesson when it happened).  Normally I would have just fallen and it wouldn't have been a big deal.

I haven't seen many head injuries, and in fact when I worked at the rink, the only major head injury we had in the 18 months or so I worked there was with an employee, who ended up with a fairly large gash on his temple area after colliding with another skater.  He was not working at the time it happened though, just skating with family for fun.

[fsk8r]

Only time I've hit my head was when I was going to step forwards from back crossovers into a spiral. I took my own feet out as I uncrossed them and the momentum was straight backwards. Most of my falls tend to be onto the hips and knees as normally I'm rotating on a turn as I go down.

[Skittl1321]

Other than online folks, or stories at the rink, I've only seen one head injury.  It was an ABSOLUTE beginner who toepicked over his rental skates, and fell face first into the ice (he clearly had no "catch myself and break my wrists instinct"...), I think this was his first time on the ice.  He smashed the top of his forehead into the ice and wash GUSHING blood.  I don't know the severity of it (foreheads tend to bleed A LOT regardless of severity, just because there is a lot of blood there), but he did have a concussion.  He left in an ambulance, and returned the next week to take classes, where the skate director told him she would give him a full refund and the next set of classes free, but she wouldn't allow him back on the ice for 4-weeks after a concussion.  I think this, along with another woman who sued over a broken wrist, is what killed our adult LTS.  The manager now has to approve adults to enter LTS, he thinks they are too much of a liability.


I think head injuries are rare, and if you can only wear one pad, I'd pick a hip one.  I worry greatly about slamming my head though because I don't fall well, every fall is a bad fall, because it only happens about once or twice a year.  I also have some spinal cord issues, so while I probably shouldn't worry more than anyone else about ice skating, I do.

[turnip]

I've seen a couple of head injuries, one on a very low level learn to skate class (an adult, not sure what happened but probably a toepick/general slip fall). The other one was a kid figure skater doing a worm on the ice for a routine, lifted her head too high and kicked herself in the back of the head with her blade, ouch! And finally, an adult skater on barrell rolls. I've not hurt my head (touch wood!) on barrell rolls, but had a couple of big falls on them

[FigureSpins]

I've had two head-bangers. 

The first happened when I was still skating.  I was literally doing NOTHING - just standing on the ice, chatting.  I turned around to skate off and whoop!  Feet went out from under me and down I went backwards, head-first.  I was at Fritz Dietl's in Westwood, NJ, almost an hour away from home, but I didn't lose consciousness or get sick.  A friend took care of me for an hour or two, then followed me all the way home to make sure I got there safely.  (He was my best skating buddy)


The second time was while I was teaching mohawks.  Another coach demonstrated FI mohawks with the free foot coming down BEHIND the skating foot.  I tried to follow her demonstration model and I stepped on my own blade and flipped backwards.  The fall really hurt - I had whiplash for almost two weeks and a lump on my head that was HUGE, even with icing it.  The scan showed a mild concussion, so I was off the ice for a week or two, except for teaching.


Head injuries I've seen:
. synchro skater thrown from a too-small circle that was moving way too fast for her = lump, whiplash and concussion.
. singles skater about to take the ice for a competition went down and slammed into the boards.  Bad gash plus concussion.
. chin split from forward spiral face-plant.
. chin split from being pushed by another skater from behind unexpectedly.
. forehead split/concussion at hairline from slow collision with another skater. 
  (Cut may have been from the ice or the other person's blade.  They ended up tangled.)

[turnip]

my best friend is a coach and when I was learning barrell rolls (closed mohawk, cross in front) she nicely told me she'd fallen twice in one week while teaching them, because she stepped on the back of her blade!

[FigureSpins]

What do you observe as the top "concussion moves", in freestyle elements or specific steps in dance / MITF, other than randomly tripping over toepicks?

Two-foot turns and backward cross-steps/rolls.  I think spins produce more dangerous falls than jumps - most people just sit down or whop body-first onto the ice after a bad jump.  Knees also take more of a beating on jump falls.

Does the risk of head injury increase as skaters move up in levels while developing better skating skills? (half jumps vs. triple jumps, two foot spin vs. flying camels)

In real life, no one goes from doing two-foot spins to a flying camel very quickly, but progressing from one-foot spins to a camel can produce a face-plant, especially if the skater is "teaching themselves."  If you don't understand the progression in learning the higher-level skills, you're more likely to be injured.

What do you see as the top impact areas in the worst head injuries, other than the back of the head? (Yeah I am considering to put more padding back into my hat, lol)

Facial areas have less fat to cushion a blow, therefore, the chin, cheek and forehead have little natural protection from bumps and bangs.  That's why injuries in those areas split and bleed so profusely.  I don't know how you could protect those areas unless you were to wear a face cage on a helmet.  Those are mostly face-first falls.

Someone on the old board once suggested that all skate guards should have RFID (anti-theft) tags to warn skaters to remove their guards before stepping on the ice.  (Been there, done that, grazed my chinny-chin-chin.)  I thought it was a good idea, but I'm not sure how you'd implement it in real life.

[Skittl1321]

Someone on the old board once suggested that all skate guards should have RFID (anti-theft) tags to warn skaters to remove their guards before stepping on the ice.  (Been there, done that, grazed my chinny-chin-chin.)  I thought it was a good idea, but I'm not sure how you'd implement it in real life.

One of the "skate moms" (her kid is in basic 7, it is just so ridiculous at this level) gave me a death glare on Tuesday.  Her son was fooling around near the ice, as usual, and went to get onto the ice early (a no-no at LTS). I usually keep my mouth shut and figure the skate director needs to handle that, but in this case, he had his guards on.  I yelled "he has guards on! Don't let him on the ice!" and she looked at me and said "don't tell me what to do with my son!"  and then he ran out onto the ice and SPLAT.  Whew! Glad no one was bossing her around.

[FigureSpins]

One of the "skate moms" (her kid is in basic 7, it is just so ridiculous at this level) gave me a death glare on Tuesday.  Her son was fooling around near the ice, as usual, and went to get onto the ice early (a no-no at LTS). I usually keep my mouth shut and figure the skate director needs to handle that, but in this case, he had his guards on.  I yelled "he has guards on! Don't let him on the ice!" and she looked at me and said "don't tell me what to do with my son!"  and then he ran out onto the ice and SPLAT.  Whew! Glad no one was bossing her around.

Well, at least you tried to save him from the fall.  She owes you thanks and an apology, but you won't get either.

"Thank you, Skittl1321, for trying to keep the kid from getting hurt.  I'm sorry that his mother was so focused on her ego that she didn't recognize that you were speaking out of concern for her son."

[tazsk8s]

The only time I can remember ever hitting my head (knock on wood) was early in my spinning days.  Caught a rut mid-spin and crashed before I could even process what was happening.  It wasn't a bad hit, just a minor bump.

Most of my jump falls are on my side or tush....both of which have lots of, er, "natural padding".  When I was initially learning the flip jump, I would underrotate that and fall directly on my knee caps...a LOT.  Maybe that's why it's my best jump now...self-preservation instinct (LOL).  My worst falls have been on MITF or various elements from them...toepick on spirals, whiplash from back cross strokes, and the infamous 8 step broken wrist.  For that matter, I've taught a lot of tots and Basic 1-2 and the only time I've ever had a kid hit their head in class, was when one of our teen helpers for tot 1 let go of a kid at the wrong time and basically dropped him on his head.    Knees are what usually take the worst beating with the little ones I've seen.

ETA, daughter skated through Intermediate and her worst fall was when her coach was trying to teach her an alternate axel entry.  I think it was from a counter.  She got hung up on the counter and went airborne horizontally and landed directly on her face...WHILE wearing glasses, no less.  Miraculously the glasses remained in one piece and only a small cut above her eyebrow, but she had the mother of all black eyes.  As soon as the bruising cleared up we were in the eye doctor's office getting her fitted for contacts...that was THE END of glasses on the ice for her.

[MimiG]

I've hit my head twice, but only once was on the ice: I had a really awkward flip off the landing edge on a double sal that was FAR too close to the boards, and hit the boards with the side of my head. I had to take a couple of weeks off the ice (should have been more as spinning gave me headaches for another couple of weeks afterwards, but concussions just weren't taken seriously at all then...) After that I made sure I was way far from the boards when jumping.

The other sort-of skating-related head bump was when my coach slipped on a patch of ice in the parking lot into the car door and slammed it into my head (I was just getting my bag out of the backseat) - totally freak accident, but I ended up with a giant Flinstones-style bump next to my ear. Attractive!

We had a kid at my current rink that lost an edge during power stroking and hit her head on the ice and blackout, but other than that, I haven't really seen too many concussions, mostly broken bones, bad sprains and split chins.

[Live2Sk8]

I've hit my head 3 three times.  First time, I was in Adult LTS and coach showed us how to do a shoot-the-duck.  I am a very cautious skater, and normally would have watched everyone else in the class first before trying the move.  I have no idea what got into me, but I volunteered to try first.  The coach did not tell us to bend/extend our arms forward on the move - she just demonstrated the move and asked us to try 1x1.  So I just went into shoot-the-duck position with actual speed (for me), did not bend/extend my arms, and promptly slipped off the back of my blade and landed on my head.  I felt very sick and shaky afterwards - didn't think about concussion possibility and husband was traveling so I drove myself home.  I was ok - but it was a very long time before I tried a shoot-the-duck again.

Second time I was doing nothing.  I had the ice to myself, and I was standing on the ice thinking about what to practice next.  Somehow I hit a condensation bump on the ice (I must have made some backward motion on the ice) and toppled over backward and landed on my head like a tree falling down.  I had a scrunchy and ponytail but my hair is really fine and thin so not a lot of padding.  I got off the ice and was crying because it hurt so much and because I was very shaken/scared.  Rink manager got me some ice and said I should go home but I had taken vacation to skate and was practicing for a Christmas show program so I got back on ice and did small things. 

Third time I was doing a scratch spin and I guess I got my weight too far back on the blade and once again, landed on my head.   

I'm like Skittl - I rarely fall but my falls are memorable.  Had a toepick accident first time I wore my new pretty white skates (used but new to me) after my first two weeks in Adult LTS.  I was just skating forward (all I knew how to do at the time) and I toepicked and landed full weight on my knee.  Got up, skated over to the boards telling a friend I was ok - then I fainted from the pain.  Came to in the hockey box with all these people standing over me.  I was so embarrassed.  I made myself get back out on the ice and skate - I knew if I went home immediately that I'd never come back. 

My other spectacular fall came when I was learning waltz jump - falling leaf - toe loop.  Practicing after LTS.  I missed the toepick on the landing of the falling leaf, blade slipped out from under me and I landed on my hip and elbow.  Don't know how I didn't slam my head into the ice, too.  I didn't try a falling leaf again until just a few weeks ago (so a few years later!), and only because my coach encouraged me to try.  It's the ugliest falling leaf EVER but at least I am trying.  I think I understand what I did wrong in LTS to cause the fall/miss the toepick.  My coach was actually scared when she saw what I was doing and showed me why it was wrong and I finally understood.  I wasn't jumping off the landing edge of the waltz jump so my weight transfer wasn't right to let me land the falling leaf on the toepick.  I make everything so much harder than I should!

The move I have seen most adults hit their head on is the sit spin.  Two of the adults I saw do that never came back to the ice.  (And they had skated as kids - they were maybe over-confident in their abilities after being off ice for years?)  I can't get my sit spin low enough and I think I am remembering these ladies slamming their heads into the ice.  I have a tendency to rock back on my blade in my sit spin as it is so I think I won't let myself go any lower.  Muscle-wise, I should be able to go lower.  I might buy an Ice Halo for my sit spin and for Silver moves (working on those now, evil evil 3-turn patterns!  I probably don't know enough to be scared of 8-step because it doesn't scare me.)

[Skate@Delaware]

Not every head bump ends up in a concussion, however, repetitive strikes to the head, especially within a short span of time are accumulative and account for more Traumatic Brain Injuries (TBI) and are more dangerous than a one-time concussion.  You don't necessarily "black out" with a concussion but there are other symptoms.

FYI: http://www.traumaticbraininjury.com/ for more information.

[Skittl1321]

A concussion IS a TBI.  I think it is important for people to understand that, especially since they are often disucssed in sports as a throw-away injury "just shake out the cobwebs".


But yes, repeated strikes to the head, even without a concussion, can be more dangerous than a single concussion.  Multiple concussions in a short time period, however, can put you in a "second strike syndrome" which doesn't happen enough to have great research on it, but can cause death.

[sarahspins]

Also, it's important to realize that you can get a concussion without actually hitting your head on anything.. because it's not about what is happening to your skull, but your brain.

[ChristyRN]

I've had several concussions.  One from softball, one from a car accident, and at least two on the ice.  The first one was right after I started skating.  I was standing in the goal crease, then looking at the silver metallic ceiling.  Had no idea what happened.   I literally saw stars and the back of my head swelled like Wile E Coyote's after the anvil landed on his head.  And, like Live2k8, I got back on the ice because I knew if I didn't, I never would again.  Luckily, my then-husband had come to the rink with DD and me, so he drove me home.  I wasn't myself for several days.

[hopskipjump]

Dd has one of those - "I was just standing and ended up flat on my back" yesterday!  She has fallen and hit her head several times including hitting her upper teeth on the ice (spiral/face plant) once. 

[SynchKat]

I've had 2 concussions and both from dance.  The first was when I was a teen practicing an OD with my brother and he fell ion my head.  I couldn't figure out why everyone was so concerned about me because I didn't remember the point of impact.  Second was as an adult, I caught someone's leg and landed on my chin.  I few minutes later I had no periphrial (sp?) vision.

We did have a lady at the rink fall and hit her head doing the Blues choctaw with no speed.  This was back in the spring and she's just getting back on the ice but is still dizzy.

Head injuries are so common on the ice and always seem to happen when you least expect.

[AgnesNitt]

Back threes have a reputation locally as a head banger for adult learners. I knew a guy who banged his head 3 times and still wouldn't wear a helmet. On the other hand, I know a guy who banged his head once and got a helmet next day.

[rosereedy]

Lucky for me I have only hit my head once. I was about 14 and was at a mid day public session. A friend of mine fell and I went to spray him with snow via hockey stop. I caught a rut and fell. I whacked my head by the temple pretty hard but I don't think it was a concussion. Took an aspirin right then and there and managed no headache. Only a slight bump and bruise. I count my lucky stars on that one.

[CaraSkates]

I've only hit my head once (in 7 years old skating, knock on wood!). It was when I was prepping for Juv MIF and working on 8-step mohawks - yup, stepped on my blade and went down. Made a loud enough noise that the entire freestyle session paused for a moment to check on me. Two days off the ice and I was ok - mostly I was mad my coach wouldn't let me have my lesson 30 minutes after I hit my head.
8-step is my nemesis move, I broke my arm on it a year before the head injury. I did pass the test and I am comfortable doing the move now but it did take some time.

[LilJen]

Oy! When I was first starting out on forward power pulls. I try to improve my posture (ie, not stick my butt out) and what do I do? WHACK on the back of the head. Not a concussion but painful.

Years ago I was trying an inside 3-turn and managed to pitch forward and bang my forehead. Got a nice goose egg. That scared me off of inside 3s for a good long while.

[Isk8NYC]

I saw this article in the newspaper today:

http://www.katc.com/news/study-old-flu-drug-speeds-brain-injury-recovery/

Apparently, the powers that be are trying to find treatments to speed recovery from concussions and brain injuries.

[Orianna2000]

This thread is terrifying me. 

I'm seriously considering getting an Ice Halo. I saw an older lady wearing one in Nashville when we got my skates sharpened, and it doesn't look that bad from a distance. Of course, it matched her hair color, which would be impossible for me. And up close . . . even my husband said it looked "dorky". But if it would save me from having to go to the hospital with a head injury, then I'd consider it. I'm sure the other skaters at my rink would smirk, but so what? I have health issues and anxiety issues and if would help either, then maybe it would be a good idea.