Help with Three Turn, fsf, falen, 2010-02

[Isk8NYC]

I think this retrieved thread was requested.  If it's wrong, let me know and I'll dig a little more.

[Isk8NYC]

         02-16-2010, 08:56 AM
            falen 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
            Posts: 131

      help with 3 turn

      Hi,
      I'm back. DD has passed basic 3 and is now in basic 4-5 (a combined
      class). If you remember from last post, DD hates do go backwards (like the
      backward one foot glide). Obviously she mastered those basic 3 backward
      moves, but now the trouble is the 3 turn. Now this kid can do all the
      elements from basic 5, including a backward crossover (and she does it the
      proffessional way, as my friend puts it, she never lifted that crossing
      over foot, she went right to that swishing in front thing and then lifting
      the back foot over). So what is the trouble? Any hints?
      Thanks for any input.

      falen


         02-16-2010, 09:09 AM
            Kim to the Max 
            Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007
            Location: Either at work or at the rink!
            Posts: 919

      3-turns are hard for a lot of folks just learning them. The turn is all
      about where you put your weight, your foot, arms, shoulders, etc. and how
      you use your core muscles to help the turn. I hate to say it, but it just
      takes lots and lots of practice.
      __________________
      Skating Dreams

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         02-16-2010, 09:27 AM
            Isk8NYC 
            Board Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003
            Location: Below the Mason-Dixon Line
            Posts: 9,796

      She needs to get over the "I won't skate backwards" thing. Most of the
      higher level elements require it. That's why she can do the "professional"
      back crossover - she's using both feet. I'll bet she's just scratching it
      out because she's not shifting her weight properly to one foot at a time.

      She has to practice backward edges every single time she skates - at least
      6 laps of them so she gets comfortable on one foot, going backwards.

      The three turn is a forward edge, turn, backward edge. She has to not use
      the toepick to turn. She has to bend her knee and glide backwards to
      finish the turn.

      The biggest problem with skaters and three-turns is usually the upper body
      and core control, as Kim pointed out. That could be a contributing factor,
      but it sounds like the one-foot part is the issue here.
      __________________

      Isk8NYC

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         02-16-2010, 12:49 PM
            falen 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
            Posts: 131

      I had to look up a back outside edge.
      Is this it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0E-QpuszgQ

      falen

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         02-16-2010, 01:20 PM
            caffn8me 
            Registered User Join Date: May 2009
            Location: London, UK
            Posts: 86

      As has already been said, getting a solid backward one foot glide would be
      a help. Get her to do this in a straight line and make sure she practises
      on both of her feet, not just one.

      Once she's got used to going a distance equivalent to her height you can
      get her to increase that distance.

      My coach had me do this (as an adult skater) and it really improved my
      balance. I was very soon able to glide on one foot backwards for over half
      the length of the rink. Once she's comfortable with going backwards in a
      straight line on one foot she should get used to the idea of gliding
      backwards on a curve as she must be able to do that for three turns to
      work.

      Good luck!

      Sarah


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         02-16-2010, 01:30 PM
            Isk8NYC 
            Board Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003
            Location: Below the Mason-Dixon Line
            Posts: 9,796

      Quote:
            Originally Posted by falen 
            I had to look up a back outside edge.
            Is this it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0E-QpuszgQ

      Yes, the skater skates backwards on an outside edge.

      However, she's probably working on forward outside three turns.
      They start on a forward outside edge, turn, then finish on a back INSIDE
      edge.

      That's demonstrated in the second half of the video.

      She should be working on both, but that's a more advanced version from the
      Adult Bronze test. (Also on the Pre-Preliminary moves test)


      Here's an outside 3-turn tutorial:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osbGr...02460C&index=4
      __________________

      Isk8NYC

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         02-17-2010, 08:32 AM
            londonicechamp 
            Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009
            Location: Singapore
            Posts: 717

      Hi

      I also struggled with 3 turns when I first learnt it. Then I came over to
      Singapore during summer vacation, and learnt ice skating with another
      coach. He taught me the turn with both feet first, and then told me to
      move my arms first, then my body would turn next. That method worked for
      me fine. 

      londonicechamp

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         02-17-2010, 09:13 AM
            Skittl1321 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006
            Location: Iowa
            Posts: 2,767

      Quote:
            Originally Posted by londonicechamp 
            He taught me the turn with both feet first, and then told me to move
            my arms first, then my body would turn next.

      This is a good point. She needs to be able to do a solid 2-foot turn
      before it's likely she'll be able to get her 3-turn. How is her two foot
      turn? (Basic 2 teaches 2 foot turn in place, Basic 3 a 2-foot turn moving.
      If she passed, she should be able to do it. Perhaps she passed but still
      needs to keep practicing that skill on her own. Many kids pass a level and
      think they have mastered everything, rather than being "just good enough",
      which isn't quite the same) That's a good place to learn to check the
      arms, and also to learn to glide out of the turn, rather then stopping in
      place.
      __________________
      -Jessi

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         02-17-2010, 10:19 AM
            londonicechamp 
            Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009
            Location: Singapore
            Posts: 717

      Hi Skittl1321

      Only after I managed the two foot turn did this coach in Singapore teach
      me the proper 3 turn (that is: with one leg only).

      londonicechamp

[Isk8NYC]

         02-17-2010, 11:10 AM
            falen 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
            Posts: 131

      Quote:
            Originally Posted by Skittl1321 
            This is a good point. She needs to be able to do a solid 2-foot turn
            before it's likely she'll be able to get her 3-turn. How is her two
            foot turn? (Basic 2 teaches 2 foot turn in place, Basic 3 a 2-foot
            turn moving. If she passed, she should be able to do it. Perhaps she
            passed but still needs to keep practicing that skill on her own.
            Many kids pass a level and think they have mastered everything,
            rather than being "just good enough", which isn't quite the same)
            That's a good place to learn to check the arms, and also to learn to
            glide out of the turn, rather then stopping in place.

      Well the 2 foot turn looks good to me. It was a loong time before her
      coach liked it, but she says it is good now. With the 3 turn, she does the
      turn, then she stomps the other foot down. Coach gives her just a finger
      to hold and then she keeps the foot up. The finger can't be doing that
      much, it's only a finger

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         02-17-2010, 11:25 AM
            phoenix 
            Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005
            Posts: 1,707

      3 turns can take a long time to get. I remember going to public session &
      doing nothing but 3 turns over & over again for weeks before they started
      to get reasonably consistent.

      It depends on the skater--if she can do it w/ the touch of a finger, then
      it's just a confidence issue, & that will only be solved with time,
      practice, and determination.

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         02-17-2010, 08:11 PM
            Schmeck 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002
            Location: NE Massachusetts, USA
            Posts: 4,292

      Quote:
            Originally Posted by falen 
            Hi,
            Now this kid can do all the elements from basic 5, including a
            backward crossover (and she does it the proffessional way, as my
            friend puts it, she never lifted that crossing over foot, she went
            right to that swishing in front thing and then lifting the back foot
            over.

      That 'swishing in front' is not a good thing - it should be a solid weight
      transfer, not a swishing motion at all - don't let her do it like that for
      too long - muscle memory will set in and she'll have a really bad habit to
      break. I've been there, done that on one of my back crossovers!
      __________________
      blades, gary, Lucy, Emily, take care of Aiden and Sami. Sami is my
      sweetest heart, and always will be, forever. RIP Cubby Boy, my hero dog.

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         02-17-2010, 09:13 PM
            Skittl1321 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006
            Location: Iowa
            Posts: 2,767

      Quote:
            Originally Posted by Schmeck 
            That 'swishing in front' is not a good thing - it should be a solid
            weight transfer, not a swishing motion at all - don't let her do it
            like that for too long - muscle memory will set in and she'll have a
            really bad habit to break. I've been there, done that on one of my
            back crossovers!

      I'd also have a coach look at it before changing it- a non-skater might
      see swishing in front when what is really happening is more of a pushing
      from the back.

      (USFSA basic skills tends not to teach the stepping over on back
      crossovers at all- that seems to be an ISI thing. So swizzling in front is
      usually the first step, but still a beginner back crossover. The stepping
      over is roughly equal- it's not a baby crossover, but a different teaching
      method.)
      __________________
      -Jessi

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         02-18-2010, 04:25 AM
            cazzie 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008
            Posts: 147

      I can so relate to your daughter. My son (now 7) insisted I do learn to
      skate classes with him when he was younger. (He got to laugh at me a lot
      as he was so much better than I am and very soon was several grades ahead
      of me).

      I failed inside 3 turns about 3 times - one of the coaches took off a
      glove and held one end while I held one finger of the glove and I could do
      them - (just so they show me that I could actually do them but was being a
      total wimp).

      I did get comfortable with normal backwards skating because my dictator of
      a child made me go round and round the rink backwards while he pretended
      to be the crocodile from Peter Pan but - outside edges backwards were way
      scarier for me.

      I have a huge phobia about falling (since a really bad horse-riding
      accident almost 20 years ago) and I think its a huge part of my own
      discomfort on ice. (I do leave skating to the kids now).

      Unfortunately no real suggestions for your daughter - but - lots of
      empathy. I guess the best way to overcome a fear of falling is to do the
      scary thing over and over again...

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         02-18-2010, 09:02 AM
            falen 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
            Posts: 131

      Quote:
            Originally Posted by Skittl1321 
            I'd also have a coach look at it before changing it- a non-skater
            might see swishing in front when what is really happening is more of
            a pushing from the back.

            (USFSA basic skills tends not to teach the stepping over on back
            crossovers at all- that seems to be an ISI thing. So swizzling in
            front is usually the first step, but still a beginner back
            crossover. The stepping over is roughly equal- it's not a baby
            crossover, but a different teaching method.)

      Coach likes her back crossover. She said she is doing them correctly
      (something about edges...I don't remember if its outside or inside...but
      apparently she is on the correct edge). On the non dominant side she has
      to step over...she doesn't seem to have the coordination to do it the
      other way yet.

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         02-18-2010, 09:04 AM
            falen 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
            Posts: 131

      Quote:
            Originally Posted by cazzie 
            I failed inside 3 turns about 3 times - one of the coaches took off
            a glove and held one end while I held one finger of the glove and I
            could do them - (just so they show me that I could actually do them
            but was being a total wimp).

            ..

      I'll have to tell her coach that trick!

      That is how I learned to swim...My aunt popped my floater while I was
      swimming...by the time I was in deep water, no floater, I was just
      swimming with dead weight.




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         02-17-2010, 04:37 PM
            Query 
            Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007
            Location: Maryland
            Posts: 800

      First, I'm neither a coach nor an outstanding skater. I still have lots of
      trouble with three turns. (I have taught some low level Basic classes on a
      volunteer basis.)

      Good one foot 3-turns require strength. The other elements up to Basic
      Skills 5 don't, so it isn't surprising 3-turns are harder.

      I'm sorry if I am suggesting a lot of off-ice strengthening exercises,
      which aren't much fun. But I believe lack of strength is the main reason
      people (including me) have trouble with turns and jumps - including the
      ones your daughter is about to get into.

      Here are the exercises I personally follow. I try to do them all as a
      sequence. (The spinning exercises I do off ice too.) Maybe they will help.

      Do your best to truly master each step before going on to the next.

      (Throughout, "you" is addressed to the skater, your child.)

      1. You can indeed easily create a spin with your arms. Just wrap the arms
      around your body in one direction (CW=clockwise) while standing still on
      two feet. Unwrap your arms and wrap them CCW. When the arms finish
      wrapping, the angular momentum (a physics measure of the tendency to spin)
      is transfered to your body, and your whole body will spin CCW. As you wrap
      and unwrap, rotate your entire spine as far as it will go.

      Try wrapping and spinning in one direction, then reversing the wrap and
      spin in the opposite direction, then reverse again and go in the first
      direction, and repeat over and over again. Master doing "two foot spins"
      this way.

      Most first time skaters can do this easily.

      Most kids easily have the flexibility to turn 90 degrees or more in each
      directions. If not, work on flexibility by doing this exercise off-ice
      after warming up. BUT - if you have ever injured your spine, this is
      dangerous. I've seen people with prior histories of spinal injury
      re-injure themselves with a similar flexibility exercise while paddling
      kayaks. Consult a physical therapist or similar expert.

      2. Start gliding forward on two feet, and do the same exercise while
      moving, to create "two foot 3-turns". Turn 180 degrees forwards to back
      CCW, then back to forwards CW, and repeat, all while gliding in the same
      direction on a straight line.

      3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 in the other direction: CW forward to back, then
      back to forward CCW, etc. You may find step 2 easier than 3, or 3 easier
      than 2.

      Step 3 is within the abilities of most kids and adults who have mastered
      Basic 1.

      4. In the case of 3 turns, it helps a lot to lean inside towards the
      center of the circle you are skating on, just before the turn. Lean a lot.


      The hardest part may be coming back out of the lean as you finish the
turn.

      Try to Master steps 2 and 3 with the lean. It's hard.

      It can also help if you raise yourself to your toes as you start to turn,
      and come back down as you stop. More about this later, because it requires
      strength.

      5. Now repeat step 1, but "check" (stop) the spins by wrapping the arms
      the opposite way when you want to stop spinning or turning. This is just
      an exercise to prepare you for the next. You probably won't have to end
      spins with a check at least at entry levels, because you won't be able to
      spin long enough for stopping to be a problem.

      These are a lot harder, because they require careful timing. You may never
      quite get it. Eventually you may have to give up and go on to step 6.

      6. Repeat steps 2-5 with that same style check. Again, do as well as you
      can for now, then go on.

      7. Now try to master steps 1 and 5 on one foot, to produce "1 foot spins".
      Doing anything on one foot is way harder than two, because of balance, so
      don't expect full mastery. You will probably have to start on two feet,
      then lift the other foot up while spinning, and put the other foot down
      again when you stop, at least for now.

      Eventually you should be able to start the unwrap and spin just after
      lifting the other foot, and not put the other down until you have stopped.


      By the way, few people can stay balanced on one foot without gliding or
      spinning on it, but you are welcome to try.

      (But don't expect to be able to reverse spin directions while standing on
      one foot, though trying is fun, if you know how to fall safely. You will
      fall if you try.)

      You will probably find it easiest to pivot on the ball of your foot.

      (For these exercises I am going to ignore the whole issue of stepping into
      spins. After all you asked about turns.)

      8. Now try to master steps 2-6 on one foot to produce "1 foot 3-turns".

      Again, these are very hard, so don't expect complete mastery, ever.

      It is possible to reverse spin directions while gliding along a line on
      one foot, and trying is fun, but is way beyond the abilities of most Basic
      5 students. If you try it, you will fall.

      Do these on the left foot (which is easier for most but not all people),
      and then the right foot. (A few people find it easier to master the right
      foot first - it's OK to change the order.)

      A lot of kids and adults never quite trust their balance enough to do a
      big outside lean on outside edges, and you need that to do good outside 3
      turns. I've seen a lot of otherwise advanced kids and adults who never
      quite get anything right that requires outside leans.

      The front to back turn should still be on the ball of the foot, or
      slightly forwards of that. Many people take it all the way to the toe. The
      back to front turn (which is much harder) works best on a point back of
      the center of the blade.

      9. Wrapping arms on turns is a beginnerish technique, that even some first
      time skaters can easily do; because it requires very little strength.

      Figure skating coaches and judges don't like full arm wraps on turns. They
      think that if you use your arms at all, they should stay straight, and
      swing forward and back, not swing around your body.

      Another problem with using your arms in turns is that it creates net
      angular momentum, which makes it hard to stop (check) the turn at the end.


      On the other hand, wrapping arms, fully or partly, is often used in spins,
      even at high skill levels. (You obviously can't spin with your arms
      staying in place.)

      On the turns for this step, try to keep your arms straight next to your
      side, and swing one arm forward and the other back to create the instead
      of wrapping.

      Swinging arms doesn't work as well as wrapping, but figure skating people
      think it shows more control.

      So repeat all the steps from 1-8 above that involve turns (not spins)
      using this technique.

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         02-17-2010, 04:37 PM
            Query 
            Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007
            Location: Maryland
            Posts: 800

      (Continued from last post)

      10. Eventually you want to do all the turns (not the spins) in steps 1-8
      without any arm or shoulder wraps or swings at all. Just extend the arms
      and shoulders straight out at your sides at shoulder level, and turn the
      body against it.

      Most kids who have mastered Basic 2 can do this on two foot turns. But 1
      foot 3-turns are harder!

      This requires upper body strength, to hold your upper spine and shoulders
      still, while you pivot about your waist.

      11. Off-ice strengthening helps a lot. http://sk8strong.com has a whole
      bunch of neat exercises if you buy her stuff, but if you are at the
      beginning levels of making yourself strong, here are some more basic
      exercises.

      Remember to strengthen yourself gradually, and only after you are warmed
      up by aerobic exercise, because it is extremely easy to hurt yourself by
      doing too much too fast! If you get sore, stop. If you stay sore more than
      a few minutes after exercise, especially if any pain occurs beyond 15
      minutes, or appears later (e.g., the next day), you probably did too much.
      (There is disagreement about this. Start talking to kids and adults at the
      rink - many of the best athletes hurt all the time. Then again, some have
      arthritis by the time they are teenagers, and can barely walk by the time
      they are 40.)

      Two handed push ups. If not strong enough to do a push-up flat, either
      pivot off your knees, or put your hands on steps while your feet are at
      the base of the stairs.

      There are variations for super-strong people that I may never be able to
      do. One handed push ups, or clap your hands while you are in the up
      position.

      Pull ups. If not strong enough to do pull ups, support yourself partly
      with your legs. Be careful not to hurt yourself. If you are really strong,
      try this with one hand, but be very careful.

      There are gym machines where you pull something down against weights that
      you can use instead of pull-ups.

      Mostly do pull ups with you hands and arms in front of your body, to avoid
      dislocating your shoulders.

      The weight machines allow you to more safely limit motion, and you can
      pull down with the arms and hands slightly behind.the head, which
      exercises a different set of muscles. Be very careful, especially if your
      shoulders are flexible! If you are able to pull your shoulder blades back
      so they don't touch your arm bones by using your own strength, you are
      pretty flexible, so consult a physical therapist or similar expert.

      Pull things horizontally at shoulder level with one or both arms too. You
      could use stretch bands or bungee cords at home. I use a rowing machine at
      a local gym.

      It is safest to pull with your arms straight in front of you, but you
      should pull at other angles too, to strengthen other muscles. But pulling
      with your arms behind your body can be dangerous to your shoulders.

      12. It helps a lot if you can achieve balance by pulling in all the
      muscles around your body at the level of your abdomen, instead of by
      flinging your arms and shoulders around.. When you do this, you will feel
      everything starting with your ribs above the abdomen lift away from your
      hips, and your spine will straighten. Ballet ballroom and ice dancers call
      this good posture, but I'm just trying to improve stability and control.
      By the way, this position also increases spinal flexibility. Many experts
      say it's not healthy to be in this lifted straightened spine position all
      the time, but it does help when doing spins and turns.

      This requires core (abdomen, lower back, and the muscles on the sides
      between them) and leg strengthening too. Again, http://sk8strong.com has
      exercises, as do Pilates books and videos, but here are some more basic
      ones:

      Sit ups, both straight and diagonally to each side.

      Leg raises, crossed in front of you, front, rear and side, and moving
      slowly between those positions, while you are standing, as well as in bent
      knee positions. Same while lying on your back. Same while lying on your
      stomach.

      Do these with your feet in neutral position, with them turned in, and with
      them turned out.

      Standing on one leg for a long time. Spiral (arabesque) positions help too
      - both with the foot comfortable down, and with the foot turned out as
      when skating.

      Staying still in a squat position for a long time. If you must, put your
      hands on your knees to help.

      If you can, stay in "shoot the duck" positions and other one foot squat
      positions, a long time. It is cheating to rest your rear end on a foot, or
      to let the limits of your knee's range of motion hold you up. Use your
      muscles.

      Squats (deep knee bends and raise exercises). Two footed. One footed if
      you are strong. To push your strength while keeping your body in a safe
      position, you can use bench press machines at the gym.

      Stepping up onto steps and back down again.

      Alternate lunges. Some people say you should not repeatedly lunge with
      your knees bent more than 90 degrees. Be sure to keep the knees aligned
      above the feet. If they wander sideways, it can gradually injure the
      cartilage in the knees.

      I can't find a good off-ice exercise to strengthen pulling my legs
      together without equipment. You could stand on one leg and pull against an
      anchored stretch band or bungee with the other leg to bring the legs
      together. Or you could rest one leg vertically on the floor, and the other
      leg horizontally on some steps, and push your body up with the leg on the
      steps - but these are both very awkward. Maybe the easiest exercise is
      on-ice swizzles, done fast.

      Maybe jumping on trampolines. Be careful of everything!

      Maybe kayaking, rotating about your waist instead of extending and bending
      your elbows. Be careful not to dislocate shoulders or injure spine.
      .
      13. It helps a lot on 3 turns if you slowly and gradually rise towards
      your toe as you start the turn, and lower back down as you finish it. That
      takes a lot of core and leg strength. Practice doing all the turns above
      this way.

      Strengthen yourself for this by all of the above, plus do two, then one
      foot slow toe raises and lowers off ice.

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         02-17-2010, 08:06 PM
            falen 
            Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
            Posts: 131

      wow!
      thanks for the time you took on that post. I'm going to have to take some
      time to study this as some of the steps I can't really visualize. I'll let
      you know how it goes!

[AgnesNitt]

This has some really good points--and is really good on its own, but the one I'm thinking of dealt with the arc of death where your three turns look more like hearts. This one is from the parents and coaches, the one I'm thinking of is from the On Ice section in 2009 or 2008.

But thanks for posting it, I'm going to save Query's comments they're so good. He's a sweetheart isn't he?