Jackson Ultima Protege UB40 blades - a close look

[MCsAngel2]

I thought (and I could be wrong) that the next-step blade from MK Pro's was the Pattern 99 and similarly, CorAce leads to Gold Seal.  Interesting that people suggest the transition crosses the nominal brands.

The Eclipse Aurora is Riedell's clone for the JW Coronation Ace now, but the Eclipse Mist was their original model.  It's been discontinued, but several places have it on clearance.  (Kinzie's Closet, for example.)

in MK, the progression is MK Pro --> Phantom --> Gold Star. The equivalents in Wilson are Coro Ace --> Pattern 99 --> Gold Seal.

Bill, darn it, now I want to try out different blades myself. Of course as I'm still only in Basic, I don't know there's much point....

[FigureSpins]

That's the issue: I keep thinking that MK makes Patt99, but it's John Wilson.  It's the MK Phantom that is the next-step from MK Professionals.  I can't even blame aging since I've had this confused for a long, long time and I own both Patt99 and Gold Seals.

Thanks!

[Loops]

in MK, the progression is MK Pro --> Phantom --> Gold Star. The equivalents in Wilson are Coro Ace --> Pattern 99 --> Gold Seal.

I see the logic, but I'm not sure that its intended as a progression from Ph/P99 --> the GS's.  In my mind, all four of those blades are intended for the same level.  Their pick morphologies differ greatly, as do I bet their spin rockers.

The only thing I see is that if you like an 8' rocker, you stick with Wilson.  MK is all about 7'.

Bill, I vote your next step to be comparing those four blades! ;-)  at least in the lab.  I'd love to know if the spin rockers are consistent in the two lines. 

[Bill_S]

I'd love to be able to do that too. At most, I could possibly do one more freestyle blade (Pattern 99?), and maybe mid-range dance blade like the Eclipse. Then my credit card needs to recover.

One thing this testing has shown is how easy it is to adapt to different main rockers, although there are some small differences felt in turns. For stroking forward or backward, just a few minutes is all it takes to get used to them.

Rear stanchion height changes that affect the attitude of the blade, if it's a large step, take a just a little longer practice time. For example the higher rear stanchion on these Jackson's produced some scratching on back crossovers. One 1-1/2 hour session was not enough for me to adapt.

It's the spin rockers that feel wildly different between blades. Spin rockers take the most time.

[Query]

OMG. All that time and money, and you like the old ones!

BTW MK Dance would be a lot different. I was just giving you an example of something A LOT different, but if you love what you have, they probably won't satisfy you either.

(Also, MK Dance are single purpose blades, and are not, IMO, very good at spins and jumps.)

[Loops]

I'd love to be able to do that too. At most, I could possibly do one more freestyle blade (Pattern 99?), and maybe mid-range dance blade like the Eclipse. Then my credit card needs to recover.

One thing this testing has shown is how easy it is to adapt to different main rockers, although there are some small differences felt in turns. For stroking forward or backward, just a few minutes is all it takes to get used to them.

Rear stanchion height changes that affect the attitude of the blade, if it's a large step, take a just a little longer practice time. For example the higher rear stanchion on these Jackson's produced some scratching on back crossovers. One 1-1/2 hour session was not enough for me to adapt.

It's the spin rockers that feel wildly different between blades. Spin rockers take the most time.

All of this- I thing the best part of your study, or for me the most informative is that you're actually skating on the blades (can we call that "ground truthing?") after doing all these measurements.  It gives you first hand, and us second hand experience to know what these differences actually MEAN.  Plus since MK and W are so secretive it kinda feels like we're all in some sort of mystery plot.

I wonder if there isn't a way to fund your study.  Does Skating Magazine still exist (or did I just date myself- Campbells Soup anyone? lol)??  Would they, or a similar entity be willing to purchase/loan you blades?  I would argue that while the blade manufacturers might be a bit put out, what you are doing is of interest to the skating community at large.  Would the Skating Professionals society be willing to get on board?  You don't even need to keep the blades once you've run them through your tests (but I would hope that you could skate on them).  Or even a local shop? It could be good advertising for them, even.

You're providing information that will help us more efficiently target our equipment choices. Shoot, I wonder if people here might be willing to have new blades shipped to you for measurements before receiving them themselves? I would do it.  I'd even happily send you what's currently in my closet- a pair of Ultima Supremes notably, but they were machine sharpened by someone I don't trust and he did something kooky to them.  My guru in MD fixed them, but for your purposes, it can't be guaranteed to be the factory  profile anymore.  I haven't skated on them since he fixed them, since I switched to CorDance to do it myself and hopefully avoid future sharpening catastrophes.  I may even still have my vision synchros, but they also were machine sharpened (by someone more competent) and are nearing the end of their sharpening life.  Both of these pair would be messy data for your study.  Not uninformative perhaps, but certainly not ideal.

Oh that money grew on trees and/or fell from the sky.

[Bill_S]

...and that we were all younger!

One aspect of blades that I haven't tested is how much difference toe picks make for jumps. I'm at the age where jumping is unpleasant to the point of being painful at times.

We need a skilled younger tester in addition to funds for blades to test. But not *too* skilled because that is not representative of the majority of skaters.

[Query]

>I wonder if there isn't a way to fund your study.  Does Skating Magazine still exist

At least as of June 2019, Skating Magazine is still the official magazine of the USFSA. I believe they sponsor or sponsored a question & answer from "Mr. Edge", so maybe they would be interested in this too.

ISI publishes a magazine called "Recreational Ice Skating"

PSA publishes Professional Skater, for U.S. coaches.

I assume many other country's skating organizations publish magazines too.

I'm not sure if the ISU publishes a magazine.

If HD sports could be assured you would always pick their blades on top, perhaps they would sponsor such a study, much like film producers sponsor film reviewers, etc. But I suspect such editorial oversight wouldn't please Bill.

There are a number of other ways to raise money through the Internet. I'm sure they are all something of a hassle.

More to the point, Bill, like a lot of skaters I have known who became very interested in blades, experimented with several blade styles, and concluded he likes what he is used to best. For whatever reasons, different people start and end with quite different blades as their first choice. It isn't clear that his conclusions apply to everyone. Not only do people get used to certain blades, but so do coaches. I think it is possible that conceivable teach skating styles (e.g., positions on the blade on which various moves are done) that work well with the blades the coaches use and advocate.

Furthermore, it is quite possible that the distance between important points on the blade, like what I call the sweet spot (where the main rocker curvature and the spin rocker intersect), and the drag pick, "should" optimally depend a lot on your size, anatomy, skating level, and strength - all of which differ from skater to skater.

So any such reviews, as for almost any sports equipment, sometimes apply best to the person doing the reviewing, and might apply imperfectly to other athletes.

It's kind of like cars. I've found, by non-scientific methods, that most people who recently bought a car love the particular model they bought, and think it was the best possible choice (perhaps within economic constraints), yet they disagree strongly on which car that is.

[Loops]

Query, I think you're missing the point about who benefits most from the study.  It's true that Bill is trying to find out what works for him personally, but I think we all know that what works for Bill and his skating technique may not work for me and mine, or you and yours.  But having data on the shape of the rocker and the sweet spots, plus the ground truthing of at least Bill's perspective on how they feel on the ice is valuable to all of us. 

It's not a question of which one blade is best for everybody.  It's a question of having actual information (rather than the vaguaries on the blade manufacturers websites), so that we as skaters can make better choices for ourselves.  Not many of us are in a position to do the tests Bill is doing, nor to lay out for different blades to test. 

[Bill_S]

It's true that Bill is trying to find out what works for him personally...

Absolutely correct. I hope that I've made that point along the way.

[tstop4me]

Absolutely correct. I hope that I've made that point along the way.

Bill, you've been extremely scrupulous in distinguishing between objective measurements, subjective evaluations, and personal preferences; and in no way even implied that what's best for you is best for every skater.

[Query]

Query, I think you're missing the point about who benefits most from the study.  It's true that Bill is trying to find out what works for him personally, but I think we all know that what works for Bill and his skating technique may not work for me and mine, or you and yours.  But having data on the shape of the rocker and the sweet spots, plus the ground truthing of at least Bill's perspective on how they feel on the ice is valuable to all of us. 

It's not a question of which one blade is best for everybody.  It's a question of having actual information (rather than the vaguaries on the blade manufacturers websites), so that we as skaters can make better choices for ourselves.  Not many of us are in a position to do the tests Bill is doing, nor to lay out for different blades to test. 

Oh. Very, very good point.

[tstop4me]

It's kind of like cars. I've found, by non-scientific methods, that most people who recently bought a car love the particular model they bought, and think it was the best possible choice (perhaps within economic constraints), yet they disagree strongly on which car that is.

As many of my profs were fond of saying, "This is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer."  Unless the car buyer is a masochist, we wouldn't expect him to evaluate a number of cars and then buy the one he hates the most.  At the worst, he might prefer Car A, but if it's beyond his budget, he might have to be satisfied with Car B, which presumably is the best of the options available to him.  And what is best will of course depend on the needs of the particular driver:  a soccer mom hauling a troop of kids around will choose a different vehicle from a guy in search of romance (e.g., a three-row SUV vs. a two-seater sports car).

At least with cars, a prospective buyer can test drive various candidates.  With skating gear, unfortunately, that's not true for most prospective buyers.