Comparison between MK Pro vs Ace

[Bill_S]

Because of the tapered blade and "hollow grind", I can't sharpen those easily.

If I had a Wissota or Blademaster power sharpener with the appropriate skate holder, yes, but that's a little outside of the budget right now.

But a fellow can dream.

[tstop4me]

Just as long as it isn't an Ultima. Most of them have a much more curved and shorter spin rocker, and take a lot of time to adapt to (I took over a year), because you keep accidentally touching the toe pick. Even once you get used to it, you have a shorter roll of the blade, giving you less speed and power. OTOH, it is easier to reach the toe pick - which is good for jumps, and if you do them, pivots, and MAYBE for other things.

It's the only thing I dislike about my Ultima blades, but it is a doozy. I wonder if any of the newest crop of Ultima blades have a shape more like the MK and Wilson blades...

Incidentally, on the devices sold that are supposed to measure blade wear, e.g., by checking how far you can roll before the toe pick touches, or how long the region between where the toe pick touches on a rigid flat surface (which ice isn't) and where the farthest forward part of the rest of the blade is, they generally say Ultima blades are already worn out when new, because of the shape difference. I think they were designed for typical MK and Wilson blades.

These two statements contradict each other.  Yes, Sid Broadbent's Wellness Gauge is nominally calibrated for Wilson and MK spin rockers (as is the Blade Curvature Gauge from PBHE).  The Wellness Gauge shows new Ultima blades as worn out (ready for discard); comparison of heel lifts also show new Ultima blades as comparable to worn Wilson and MK blades.  These results are shown in the Paramount video on Lift Angles (https://www.paramountskates.com/videos).  If you accept these results, that means the Ultima blades have flatter, not rounder, spin rockers than Wilson and MK blades.  The Paramount video on Blade Profiles compares the spin rockers of the Wilson Gold Seal vs. the Ultima Supreme (at ~2:15 in the video), showing the flatter spin rocker on the Ultima.

Interesting that you've found Ultima blades to have too round a spin rocker.  Anecdotally, skaters, coaches, and tech's I've talked to have agreed that Ultima blades have flatter spin rockers than comparable Wilson and MK blades.  But given Bill's contrarian results on the MK Pro spin rocker, it'll be interesting what his measurements show for the Ultima Protege.  Of course, we still won't know what the manufacturing variation of various blades is. 

[Bill_S]

MK Pros are mounted, sharpened, and ready for tomorrow morning.

I hope my foot doesn't bother me so I can put them through the paces fairly.

[tstop4me]

MK Pros are mounted, sharpened, and ready for tomorrow morning.

I hope my foot doesn't bother me so I can put them through the paces fairly.

Since you've gone this far, looks like you've decided not to return them.  Despite valiant efforts, you weren't able to straighten the bent blade.  If you find that the bend does interfere with your skating, you could probably straighten it during the mounting procedure.  Assuming the bend is a simple bow (which your photos seem to indicate), such as (, rather than a warp, such as ~, you could probably offset the heel and sole plates to straighten the blade on the boot.  About 5 yrs ago, when I first started playing around mounting my own blades, I was sloppy about lining up the mounting holes.  The unmounted blade was straight, but the mounted blade was bowed.  I was surprised that misaligned screws could exert enough stress to bend the blade, but they did.  When I demounted the blade, fortunately it sprang back to straight (didn't exceed the yield point).  I then plugged up the holes, drilled new holes more carefully, and mounted the blade straight.

[Query]

These two statements contradict each other.  Yes, Sid Broadbent's Wellness Gauge is nominally calibrated for Wilson and MK spin rockers (as is the Blade Curvature Gauge from PBHE).  The Wellness Gauge shows new Ultima blades as worn out (ready for discard); comparison of heel lifts also show new Ultima blades as comparable to worn Wilson and MK blades.  These results are shown in the Paramount video on Lift Angles (https://www.paramountskates.com/videos).  If you accept these results, that means the Ultima blades have flatter, not rounder, spin rockers than Wilson and MK blades.  The Paramount video on Blade Profiles compares the spin rockers of the Wilson Gold Seal vs. the Ultima Supreme (at ~2:15 in the video), showing the flatter spin rocker on the Ultima."

The Ultima spin rocker region is shorter - so the Wellness Gauge is partly measuring the effect of the main rocker.

My interpretation of the problems I had adapting to the Ultima blades are as follows: The longer (less curved) main rocker, combined with the longer roll distance to the sweet spot (where the main rocker curvature changes to the spin rocker curvature) combine to mean that more strength is required to reach the sweet spot, and more angular speed is required of my ankle. Then, the shorter roll to the toe pick means that I had to abruptly counteract that ankle point motion, in a shorter distance and time, and that the shorter spin rocker meant that the change in force needed to keep rolling was much less - so I kept crashing against the toe pick when I only meant to dwell on the sweet spot. I believe that the resulting issues mean that you have to be a more skilled skater, with faster reflexes, to use the high end Ultima blades, than the high end MK and Wilson blades.

BTW, Matrix blades, as far as I know, have the same blade shapes as the lower line models with the same name. At least that is what the Jackson people I talked to thought, though they weren't sure. And now it may be different - my experience is based on an earlier Matrix line (the Matrix I line, with interchangeable blade runners), which is no longer in production, though I have enough runners (Dance, Surpreme [a much higher level freestyle runner than I should have tried to use], and Synchro, to last me the rest of my lifetime.

Interesting that you've found Ultima blades to have too round a spin rocker.  Anecdotally, skaters, coaches, and tech's I've talked to have agreed that Ultima blades have flatter spin rockers than comparable Wilson and MK blades.

I think there could be that perception, because the spin rocker applies to a shorter distance along the blade, and the sweet spot is further forward. So I guess people think the are on the spin rocker when they are really still on the main rocker, because the sweet spot is so much further forward.

(However it has been quite some time since I measured the main and spin rockers of various blades, and the position of the spin rocker. It is possible I have somehow reversed something in my mind - but I don't think so.)

I think, but am not sure, that the toe pick on the Ultima Dance are longer and more aggressive than they were on the MK Dance, but I didn't actually measure that.

BTW, if money were no object, I would return to MK Dance, because I really loved them. Though I suppose it is possible I am now used to tUltima, and would need a similar adaption period to transition back. Alas, after investing in the Matrix blade holders and all the runners I could find in my size (because they discontinued Matrix I just after I bought it - argh!), along with extra of the bolts that hold the Matrix I runners in place (which wore out quickly - a major defect of the original Matrix I design), I felt it would be too much of a waste to throw them out and buy MK Dance blades again.

It really annoys me that some kids adapt really fast to blade model changes, and I had so much trouble. I'm a lot older; maybe that explains it. Still - it isn't fair. I'm not alone. I have known a lot of adults who tried to switch blade models, and ended up going back to what they were already using, because it is harder for adults to adapt to new things.

But given Bill's contrarian results on the MK Pro spin rocker, it'll be interesting what his measurements show for the Ultima Protege.  Of course, we still won't know what the manufacturing variation of various blades is.

BTW, Jackson implies Protege are only intermediate level blades, designed for people starting to learn double jumps. That might conceivable mean it is less aggressive, and is easier to deal with than the Jackson Ultima Supreme, Dance and Synchro runners I tried - I just don't know.

BTW I simply haven't tried all types of blades. I generalize from a much smaller collection than Bill, and I'm not as good a skater.

For that matter, Mike C in his shop once showed me that at least one of the common high end freestyle blades (Gold Seal??) had changed a lot over the years. He showed me the toe pick position of old and new style blades, and they were much different. Of course that might make sense - over the years, there has been a strong emphasis in Freestyle on increasing the number of jump rotations, and even the standards by which they are judged have changed. In theory, evolving the shape was the right thing to do, though that may have confused some people.

[Query]

BTW, this may be out of date, but MK and Wilson sometimes didn't line up the mounting plate hole centers with the countersink centers. I like to use countersink punches to find the right center position, so the screws seat cleanly - but maybe people with better tool skills don't need that?

[tstop4me]

The Ultima spin rocker region is shorter - so the Wellness Gauge is partly measuring the effect of the main rocker.
....

I think there could be that perception, because the spin rocker applies to a shorter distance along the blade, and the sweet spot is further forward. So I guess people think the are on the spin rocker when they are really still on the main rocker, because the sweet spot is so much further forward.

(However it has been quite some time since I measured the main and spin rockers of various blades, and the position of the spin rocker. It is possible I have somehow reversed something in my mind - but I don't think so.)
....

The above statements indicate to me that your usage of the term "sweet spot" (and maybe even of the term "spin rocker") is different from mine.  But I don't won't to clutter up Bill's thread, so I'll spin off a different one.

[Bill_S]

MK Professional blades, first day of tests

I attended a morning freestyle today for the first time with these blades. Because of outdoor temperatures in the 90s for several days now, there were some small condensation bumps, fog, and frost on the ice surface. There was no ice cut immediately before freestyle. In other words, it wasn't great ice.

Stroking: It felt almost no different than with the new Aces, which in turn, didn't feel that different from my old, worn Aces. Very easy adjustment.

Tight turns in edges: One thing that I haven't mentioned about either blade is how nicely they turn in very tight turns. By that, I mean turns of a couple feet radius or less when doing figure-style edging, for example. They do track better than my worn-to-8' old blades. The curvier rocker must help with these tight turns.

Three turns: Mostly the same as my old Aces and the new ones. However, like the new Aces, when I get a little forward on the blade, it tends to arc inward and tighten the turn. That usually spells the end of a series of consecutive threes on one foot. As a result, I am doing fewer of these front-back-front-back, etc. turns in before I have to step out. Still, the feeling when on the right part of the blade feels very similar to what I am used to. I'm beginning to believe that it's the 7' rocker on these newer blades compared to the worn-to-8' rocker on my old Aces.

Spins: Oh, my! This is the biggest difference between the new Aces tested last week vs. the current MK Pros. I found it MUCH easier to find the sweet spot. My spins weren't perfect today, but at least I got around a few times. I'm traveling,  but at least traveling means that you're spinning.



This is typical of spins from today. While not great, it's better than I was able to do on the new Aces. For spinning, I could get used to this blade much easier than the 2019 Ace.

I managed a few brackets without any trouble. With the marginal ice conditions, I didn't push the trickier turns.

[Loops]

MK Professional blades, first day of tests



Spins: Oh, my! This is the biggest difference between the new Aces tested last week vs. the current MK Pros. I found it MUCH easier to find the sweet spot. My spins weren't perfect today, but at least I got around a few times. I'm traveling,  but at least traveling means that you're spinning.



This is typical of spins from today. While not great, it's better than I was able to do on the new Aces. For spinning, I could get used to this blade much easier than the 2019 Ace.

Bill, that spin is better centered than anything I typically put out.  Nice work!  I used to skate on Pros, but have switched to aces, mostly because they come in a dance length (I'm a convert- I step on that tail too much!).  I'm very curious as to how these work out for you long term.  Are they on the other pair of boots, or the same boots you've been using? 

[Bill_S]

These tests are all on my 12-year old boots. I'm going to decide on blades first, then get them mounted onto the new boots.

I just hope the new boots will be as responsive as the old ones. They seem to know what I am about to do, then help me do it.

[MCsAngel2]

Wait, I thought you bought 2 pairs of new boots? And that you were going to mount the new blades to them?

[Bill_S]

I did buy two new boots.

However I'm using my current boots, with which I am very familiar, to be the "mule" for blade testing. That way I can isolate the blade differences from that of new boots. Changing one variable at a time makes comparison easier.

It also avoids having a multitude of mounting holes on the new boots as I experiment with different blades. I'll do that to the worn-down boots that will soon be "put out to pasture" -(furthering the reference to "mule"  ).

At one point I planned to mount dance blades on one pair, and freestyle blades on another. However the cancellation of my SkateScience dance blades order by the manufacturer may affect my plans.

[Loops]

Bill that makes perfect sense.  You've gotta break those new boots in, too.  No point in confusing matters.

I'm totally bummed about the skate science blades.  I've been intrigued, but know I'd get in lots of trouble with those toe picks (ice dancers, who've never skated with freestylers don't appreciate toe-pick holes.  Straight cut picks and hard, brittle hockey ice are a less-than-ideal combination in that regard!)

[Query]

Your spins are infinitely better than mine. I guess you started out with a slight travel, then converged into a fairly clean center. Which I guess means you retain good control of your edges and weight balance.

(I can sometimes initially center, but then lose control and travel a lot. So my spin tracing frequently looks more like twizzle tracing. Oddly enough, when I try to twizzle, I occasionally do center into something more like a spin. )

What if you push a little HARD against the blade as you enter the spin - would that stop your initial forwards travel? For me, that initially works, but it pushes me just enough out of balance - sometimes onto completely the wrong edge, and it messes me up even more.

Clearly, in some ways the blades are doing what you want them to do. We'll have to see if you become a convert. But, I assume all blades have good and bad features, and do some things well at the expense of doing others poorly. Otherwise, I guess people would all gravitate towards the same style blade.

S

[Query]

The above statements indicate to me that your usage of the term "sweet spot" (and maybe even of the term "spin rocker") is different from mine.  But I don't won't to clutter up Bill's thread, so I'll spin off a different one.

Can you link to the new thread?

[tstop4me]

Can you link to the new thread?

Need to prep some drawings first; but tied up for now.

[Bill_S]

MK Professional blades, second day of tests

The ice was cut before freestyle this morning, and was PERFECT. I told the Zam driver to offer a tip jar. 

I continue to spin better on these than on the new Aces. I still travel, but with a little work on the free leg position as I start the spin, I tightened things up noticeably. Like any new blade, it's going to take some time to adapt.

I still have a little trouble with the curvier rocker when doing traveling threes. I manage a few of them, then end up either too far forward or back on the rocker. That halts the progression down the ice.  Sigh - that used to be a highlight move!

I'm surprised at how well the blade position works without needing adjustment. If someone already has blades that are working and need to change them out, holding a flat rule against the sides of the blades and then marking the positions on the soles and heels really works. None of the blades so far have felt even an iota out of position.

[MCsAngel2]

Obviously, no issues with the one MK blade being warped?

[Bill_S]

None detected. I did check flatness after mounting and the bend was reduced, but still not dead flat. However, I can't feel it on the ice.

So far, these blades are shaping up to be my favorites between the new-style Aces and MK Pros. I suspect that's a highly personal thing and that someone else may like the Aces better. One size doesn't fit all.

And frankly, I like my 12-year old Aces better than either of these, but I'm running out of blade life. I'm sure that favorable opinion is because I'm so used to them.

[MCsAngel2]

This thread has been so great, and has given me a lot to think about! Looking to the future, I just assumed I would get CAs when time to upgrade, but your description of how easy the Pros are to spin in may sway me.

[tstop4me]

MK Professional blades, second day of tests
I continue to spin better on these than on the new Aces. I still travel, but with a little work on the free leg position as I start the spin, I tightened things up noticeably. Like any new blade, it's going to take some time to adapt.

This is an interesting result on your ease of spin.  The plots you showed in Reply #44 indicate that, near the sweet spot, the spin rocker radius is ~12 - 15" for the CA vs ~21 - 24" for the Pro.

[Bill_S]

If you look at the graph comparing profiles of my old Aces, you can see that it's radius is about the same as the MK Pro, although the flattened rocker puts it lower.

I suspected that I'd like the MK Pro better. I'm used to a larger spin rocker and one that doesn't change along the length ("compound spin rocker") like new Aces.

[Query]

Obviously, no issues with the one MK blade being warped?

None detected. I did check flatness after mounting and the bend was reduced, but still not dead flat. However, I can't feel it on the ice.

Specific things to look for:

Does that blade get warm when you skate (as at least one of my very warped Coronation Ace blades did)? Warmth isn't a problem, but it could indicate an energy loss, that slows down your blade.

Is your glide as long as on the Coronation Aces?

It might also create a sharpening problem if you ever do get they high end bench tool. Obviously, your Pro-Filer follows the warp better than a bench tool.

[Bill_S]

I skated a few more times since the last report. I am getting accustomed to the new rocker when doing continuous three-turns down the ice. I skated fairly well this morning, and did OK with spins. I'm sure that with time, I'd do even better with them.

I'm about to switch to Jackson Ultima Protege blades to try, so I'll be removing the Professionals soon. Between the Ace and the Pro, I'd vote for the Pro because it meshes better with my skating style.

That's peculiar, because I've been on three different Aces since around 2001 before I tried these (my fourth pair). I have access to the previous two sets before this pair. The 2007 pair was traced when new. The new 2019 Aces have a different spin rocker when compared.

Over the weekend, I measured my second set of Aces that were worn from 2003 to 2007. Although not new, they were machine sharpened just once, then hand sharpened from 2003-2007. It also doesn't show that little hump around the spin rocker that is evident in the 2019 Ace. I can only conclude that the new spin rocker shape has thrown me off. I was hardly ever able to get up over the blade for a spin.

Here's the graph showing three of the four Coronation Ace blades that I've skated on. The first set from 2001 was given away, so it's not in the graph.



The other two Aces show some general rocker differences because of sharpenings over their lifespan. However it's easy to see that they have a smoother spin rocker (toward the left side of the graph), which I like. The new Ace, in red, shows the little hump that I've been talking about.

The very different feel between the old vs. new Aces was eye-opening. I presume that I could get used to the new shape over time, but I will move on instead.

In the meantime, the MK Professional blade suites my style the best so far.

I'll be trying at least one more pair of blades, Ultima Protege (see the new thread for them at http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8431.0), before I make a firm decision about which blade to mount on my new boots.

In the Ace's favor, it had  a better fit and finish compared to all the other blades I've tested. The sides were flat, the plates are polished mirror-smooth, even where it isn't needed. Nice job, John Wilson!

[FigureSpins]

Here's a question: how easy are backward three turns and brackets on each of the blades?  Since they turn on the back of the blade, I'm curious about the flatter tail profiles you've shown us.  (Different from running three-turns, which can use momentum and the middle of the blade, which the judges don't want to see on a Moves test.)