Are high arched feet best off in Jacksons, and low arched feet in Riedells?

[MCsAngel2]

Is there any value in trying on boots that are bigger than your proper size (to get the right width, which would not be stocked in my proper size) to see how they feel? I'm guessing the answer is no, but I wonder if anyone has done this.

I've been scouring the skating boards and done my own query on this subject, and I've become suspicious that Jackson's footbed (hard bottom of the boot) is just too arched for my flat feet (and the higher heel on the dance boot isn't helping).

I am maybe amenable to moving up my plans to get new boots (full custom if necessary), which I'm now thinking of getting from Riedell. Funnily enough, they were my first skates back in 1985...but I didn't think their boots or my feet now were similar enough to then to take into account. Sure would like to get an idea of fit without having to shell out all the $$$ first.

[tstop4me]

I've been scouring the skating boards and done my own query on this subject, and I've become suspicious that Jackson's footbed is just too arched for my flat feet (and the higher heel on the dance boot isn't helping).

You need to carefully distinguish between the fixed insole, the removable footbed, and the heel height (or heel pitch).   There's no consistency in usage between "insole" and "footbed", but a previous poster who was a shoemaker said he preferred "insole" for the fixed portion of the boot, and "footbed" for the removable portion.  I'll use "fixed insole" and "removable footbed" to emphasize what I'm referring to.

I currently skate with the Jackson Elite Men's Suede.  I bought it in late 2014, so it's the previous leather model, not the current synthetic model.  It came with the previous model removable footbed, not the latest Matrix Poron one.  I have flat feet due to previously mediun arches that have fallen.  The removable footbeds that came with my boots were useless.  At first glance, they appeared to have a molded heel cup and arch support; but once I stepped on them, they flattened out to a planar sheet and gave no support at all ("All show and no go", as they say.).  My first preference was to have a custom pair of orthotics made, but I couldn't find a podiatrist in my area that had experience with orthotics for figure skates.  So I ended up making my own removable footbed.  Some characteristics of my boots that helped:  the fixed insole is fairly flat (e.g., no built-in arch supports), and the toebox is high and well rounded (i.e., the boot could accommodate a thicker removable footbed without squishing my toes).  So, if your main issue is with the removable footbeds, chuck them and replace them with something more suitable (previous posts have discussed various options).

I previously skated in Riedells.  My last pair was a circa 2000 Royal (I skated infrequently when I was working full time and a full time parent).  Riedells have changed a lot since then, but I'll point out some features in the old model that you should check in the latest ones.  The old Riedells had a thin removable footbed, really just a liner.  But the fixed insole did have a built-in arch support.  This was a mixed blessing.  Great if it was right for you, bad if it wasn't.  It's far more difficult to design and install a corrective removable footbed to go over a fixed insole with a built-in arch support than a fixed insole that is fairly flat.  Also, the old Riedell had a relatively low and pointed toebox, so there was not much room to accommodate a thicker removable footbed.  Be careful to verify the design features of the current Riedell models you're considering.

I bought my first pair of Riedells in the late 60's.  For the next 30 or so years, their line was fairly stable, only minor incremental changes.  Over the last 10 years or so, they've made major changes.  The Jackson line seems to change almost constantly.  Edea appears to have disrupted the market, and the once conservative figure skate boot business is far more dynamic (for better or for worse).  So when you ask for comparisons between Riedells and Jacksons (or other makes), be aware that answers will vary with model and vintage (some brands are opting for a two-prong approach:  a classic line for their traditional models and a nouveau line to compete with Edea; so it get's even more confusing when comparing brands).

[MCsAngel2]

Thanks for the info about the changes the brands have gone through. I certainly have seen a lot of posts about Jackson whenever they change their lineup.

I was using the terms in the opposite way from how you did; to me 'footbed' refers to the hard bottom of the boot, and 'insole' to the removable liner.

We have different foot arches, with your fallen arches you still need support there. Mine are naturally low, so the flatter the footbed, the better. Superfeet absolutely killed me. Even the regular insole in the boot is still hurting.

I do still have the option of playing around with the (removable) insole, adding some molefoam to the bottom. With the high toebox of my skates, I can do that. I wonder if I can add enough to offset the height of the heel.

I've been sticking it out with the foot pain, but I am REALLY over it now. DH is unhappy that there isn't anything my skate tech can do to fix them, after spending all the money on them in the first place.

[DressmakingMomma]

From your posts, it sounds like you have similar boot issues that my daughter did. She has super wide ball, very narrow heel, flat but not fallen arches, pronates, pronounced achilles tendon, and her foot is very muscular and not fatty so the boot has to be shaped to her foot rather than her foot molding to the boot.

First, traditional leather soles and leather uppers only. Anything lightweight or made of plastics just didn't have enough give or wouldn't break in properly for her. Her boots are heavier because they are the traditional all leather upper and sole (layered leather and cork heel) but that seems to be the only kind of boot that works for her.

Her customs have features specifically for her feet. Lower heel height, built in pronation support, wide and rounded out toebox, narrow heel, extra c-shaped ankle padding to seat her heel, lower cut backstay to accommodate her large achilles tendon that is also heavily padded, lace bar to keep the tongue straight, and a split sponge/lambswool tongue to prevent lace bite (she ties tightly).Fine grain leather lining because she skates barefoot. She does not use any removable footbed in her skates, just skates on the hard fixed insole.

We had used good, highly regarded skate techs but they still weren't able to order a custom boot that fit. It took going to the factory and having the head tech and boot maker inspect her feet and design a boot together. They noticed things about her feet that nobody else had and came up with the above list. It took two tries, the first customs were a bit too long and a bit too wide in the heel, so we had a second pair made and they fit perfectly.

It took us five years to get boots that fit correctly and that she can wear for hours without pain. Five years of pain, frustration, slow progress and wasted lesson fees because she couldn't put in the practice time necessary. This last year of skating has been amazing and I wish we had just gone directly to a factory regardless of cost in the beginning, which would have saved money in the long run and she would be so much further along in her skating. I'm grateful she didn't give up.

[MCsAngel2]

From your posts, it sounds like you have similar boot issues that my daughter did. She has super wide ball, very narrow heel, flat but not fallen arches, pronates, pronounced achilles tendon, and her foot is very muscular and not fatty so the boot has to be shaped to her foot rather than her foot molding to the boot.

First, traditional leather soles and leather uppers only. Anything lightweight or made of plastics just didn't have enough give or wouldn't break in properly for her. Her boots are heavier because they are the traditional all leather upper and sole (layered leather and cork heel) but that seems to be the only kind of boot that works for her.

Her customs have features specifically for her feet. Lower heel height, built in pronation support, wide and rounded out toebox, narrow heel, extra c-shaped ankle padding to seat her heel, lower cut backstay to accommodate her large achilles tendon that is also heavily padded, lace bar to keep the tongue straight, and a split sponge/lambswool tongue to prevent lace bite (she ties tightly).Fine grain leather lining because she skates barefoot. She does not use any removable footbed in her skates, just skates on the hard fixed insole.

We had used good, highly regarded skate techs but they still weren't able to order a custom boot that fit. It took going to the factory and having the head tech and boot maker inspect her feet and design a boot together. They noticed things about her feet that nobody else had and came up with the above list. It took two tries, the first customs were a bit too long and a bit too wide in the heel, so we had a second pair made and they fit perfectly.

It took us five years to get boots that fit correctly and that she can wear for hours without pain. Five years of pain, frustration, slow progress and wasted lesson fees because she couldn't put in the practice time necessary. This last year of skating has been amazing and I wish we had just gone directly to a factory regardless of cost in the beginning, which would have saved money in the long run and she would be so much further along in her skating. I'm grateful she didn't give up.

You just described my foot and boot needs here! Except for the pronounced achilles tendon. And I'm wearing a low cut dance boot, but honestly I don't like how it feels sometimes. I would probably get a regular freestyle boot but a lower backstay.

I didn't realize that they didn't get it right the first time... isn't that frustrating, after even going to the factory in person? I've been trying to explain to my husband how it works with figure skating boots, and he just thinks the industry is full of incompetent people, that SHOULD be able to fit a skater perfectly with a perfectly fitting boot, especially considering how much they cost. When you say you had a second pair made, do you mean Riedell started all over again, or did you have to pay to have another pair made?

Are all leather skates heat moldable? I'm guessing no, but I just don't remember how it used to be done in the old days. I know mine were broken in just by use, but those skates were less stiff than what I have now.

How do they do it at Riedell? Do they make casts of your feet? Or do they just measure the heck out of them? And how long did it take them to make?

[Loops]

Just to chime in on two points....

1) I got my first pair of customs last year. They are the best fitting skates I've ever had. Not perfect but oh so close. Next ones will hopefully be.

2) I do a hybrid boot- freestyle in front dance in the back. I had dance boots before. Loved the toe point, but never felt stable in them. The hybrid is perfect. Fwiw I mounted my pic skates on the dance boots and now realise just how unstable they are. 

I decided to take the plunge on customs based on Dressmakingmommas daughter's experience. I went with jackson as opposed to Riedell for price reasons. And my fitter recommended them for my feet (he does have preferences, but had I insisted may have done riedell, i don't know). I live in Europe so getting to either factory is a non starter.

[DressmakingMomma]

First, my daughter is incredibly sensitive about her feet. ALL shoe buying is an event and always has been. What she can't tolerate, somebody else might be able to. She probably could have lived with the first pair of custom Riedells but we worked out an agreement on the second pair that was favorable to both parties and we were able to keep the first pair and mount Picc frames.

Here's our list of boot adventures (I think):
Used pair of Riedells in wide that somebody gave us, which started this whole crazy figure skating journey
Used pair of custom Harlicks (wore for less than a year)
Edea Overtures (wore for about 4 weeks, used a bad fitter)
Jackson Premiers special ordered (wore them for maybe 6 months, sort of worked)
Custom Harlicks (wore for a year - loved them)
Edea Ice Flies (wore for 6 months, too narrow)
Edea Ice Flies in wide (wore for maybe 6 months, still too narrow)
Custom Harlicks (wore for less then 6 months, too narrow in the toe and too wide in the heel)
Jackson Premiers special ordered, the newer style (wore for a short time - those were the worst of all her boots)
Custom Riedells (two pairs to get it right)

That's eleven pairs of skates in ~6 years of skating. My poor husband has been so patient. This is why I sing praises for Riedell, even if it took a trip to the factory and two tries. Other than a pair of custom Harlicks that she wore for a year, every other boot caused pain, tears, and frustration.

As for the Riedell process:
She is in skates that are similar to the Silver Stars with additional options/features.

They don't make casts but they traced, took measurements and pictures, watched her stand and walk around, and looked at her previous boots. The way I understand it, Riedell makes a custom pattern in their CAD system.

Her boots were warmed in an oven when we picked them up, I think the process sort of speeds up the break in period. Her boots are pretty stiff, so they were a little tough to break in but breaking in skates that fit is FAR easier than skating in boots that don't.

Their turnaround time is amazing - I think around 6-8 weeks depending on how busy they are. We once waited 16 weeks for a pair of Harlicks, so we were very happy with that timeframe.

[FigureSpins]

Are all leather skates heat moldable? I'm guessing no, but I just don't remember how it used to be done in the old days. I know mine were broken in just by use, but those skates were less stiff than what I have now.

Back in the day, we just toughed it out and wore the skates until they broke in.  5-6 hours with the top hooks unlaced.  Lots of crossovers, shoot-the-ducks, lunges and sit spins on ice, guards and stairs or squats off ice.  There were some treatments that won't work with today's padding and materials.  (Rinse the insides with water and bag it overnight.  Causes mold and mildew along with boot rot if the padding gets that damp.)

The late Don Klingbeil once stated that all leather skates can be heat molded, but it's more effective on boots that were designed (special materials) for heat molding.  YMMV

[FigureSpins]

If you think it's the insole, ask your doctor or PT for a recommendation to a sports med person who specializes in insoles.  The podiatrists are hit-or-miss, but we have a good PT who really "gets" the importance of insoles for sports so everyone recommends him to athletes.  Jacksons have more top-to-bottom room for a custom footbed than other brands like SP-Teri or Harlick, based on my personal experience.

[tstop4me]

Are all leather skates heat moldable? I'm guessing no, but I just don't remember how it used to be done in the old days. I know mine were broken in just by use, but those skates were less stiff than what I have now.

True heat-moldable boots have a thermoplastic interfacial layer in the uppers.  The thermoplastic layer softens when baked, gets formed to the desired shape, and then holds the desired shape when cooled.