Wissota or Blademaster?

[Bill_S]

I've been daydreaming about getting a real powered skate sharpener lately. I found that both Wissota and Blademaster make small units suitable for a home shop. Set up with some accessories, they would cost about $1500. Wissota has a sale going on right now.

The Blademaster has smaller grinding wheels (3" diameter) which should be better at sharpening just behind the toe picks. Wissota wheels are 7" diameter. I'm also not sure how important it would be either way. But small wheels will wear faster. 

Does anyone have experience with either sharpening system? It's still at the daydream stage, but it's not an outlandish idea. A traditional skate sharpener would open up the possibility of sharpening thin dance blades, taper blades, and other unusual blade geometries.

EDIT: Here are the links to machines that I'm considering. The Wissota package is for hockey skates, so I'd need to add/substitute a couple of things for figure skates.

https://wissota.com/product/clean-skate-sharpener

http://blademaster.com/web/usa/en/portable-machines/598-spb750.html

[tstop4me]

Looks like we're having the same daydream.  Here's a related thread that I started in 2016:  http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=7239.msg86312#msg86312  (skim it first because one of the answers had missing info that led to confusion; later cleared up).

[Bill_S]

I THOUGHT my daydream sounded familiar! Thanks for the link. It appears that someone else brought up the Wissota grinding wheel size too.

I'll have to do some drawings to scale to judge how much it may affect sharpening.

[Bill_S]

Here's a scale drawing of size 10-1/2 Coronation Aces showing the "dead zone" behind the toe picks not reached by a 7" grinding wheel.



It's better than I thought, a mere 0.7 inches. Surprisingly, the 3" grinding wheel (dashed circle) isn't that much different. Both can reach where the blade will never contact the ice.

If the blade is tilted forward to contact the ice picks, the last bit of blade to reach the ice is well beyond the "dead zone" for either grinding wheel.

[tstop4me]

Here's a scale drawing of size 10-1/2 Coronation Aces showing the "dead zone" behind the toe picks not reached by a 7" grinding wheel.


It's better than I thought, a mere 0.7 inches. Surprisingly, the 3" grinding wheel (dashed circle) isn't that much different. Both can reach where the blade will never contact the ice.

If the blade is tilted forward to contact the ice picks, the last bit of blade to reach the ice is well beyond the "dead zone" for either grinding wheel.

Good analysis of the dead zone.  Another advantage of the larger diameter wheel:  For the same rotational speed [revolutions per minute (rpm)], the larger diameter wheel has a higher linear speed [surface feet per minute (sfpm)].  This typically will provide a smoother surface finish (assuming the motor has adequate torque).

[Casey]

Good analysis of the dead zone.  Another advantage of the larger diameter wheel:  For the same rotational speed [revolutions per minute (rpm)], the larger diameter wheel has a higher linear speed [surface feet per minute (sfpm)].  This typically will provide a smoother surface finish (assuming the motor has adequate torque).

This is a guess, but I think that a smaller wheeled machine may be what was responsible for my blades having an appearance of a perpendicular line across them every millimeter or two.  It wasn't just visible - I could feel tiny variations in the sharpening depth, meaning that the bottoms of my blade were not very flat but rather more like a wave pattern, meaning more friction on the ice.  I used to use a small teardrop-shaped hand sharpening stone with a smaller radius than my sharpening (which I haven't been able to find another of since) to smooth it out after each sharpening, as this would make it feel better when skating.  I've moved since then, and whatever the last sharpener used on my blades, left a much smoother surface without any manual buffing needed.  A larger wheel will not wear down as fast (changing ROH as it does so).  My instinct would be to go for the larger wheel.

[Bill_S]

Irregular sharpening undulations are operator error. It takes a steady hand and smooth motion. Maybe he had too much coffee? 

I'm OK with the larger wheel because the smaller one doesn't change the "dead zone" nearly as much as I thought. So much for intuition!

It's a big chunk of change to buy one, and is self-indulgent for a really old guy like me. Perhaps it will remain a daydream.

But daydreams are fun. So are toys.

[Casey]

It's a big chunk of change to buy one, and is self-indulgent for a really old guy like me. Perhaps it will remain a daydream.

But daydreams are fun. So are toys.

Same here.  I'd love to invest in one and learn to do it well at some point, though it makes no financial sense!  It would be great to have complete control over the quality of sharpening on my own skates.  Maybe someday...

[Casey]

Fascinating!  I'm watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfu7NVUFu8o around 10 minutes in, and the guy making the video is showing off a 100-year-old or so figure skating blade.  It's both tapered and has crosscut toepicks.  Here I thought those were more modern innovations!

[Query]

A traditional skate sharpener would open up the possibility of sharpening thin dance blades, taper blades, and other unusual blade geometries.

Sorry you couldn't make do with 1/2" ROH. If you could have, the old Berghman hand skate sharpeners, still available for $5-$10 used, could have handled any of these, because of the adjustable gap, and the fact that you could easily have added a compressible foam tape to each side of that gap to handle variable side honing, such as tapirs, parabolic shapes, and dovetail cuts.

But do I recall you have machine shop skills? I don't, but maybe an equivalent to the Berghman tools, but with your preferred ROH, would be within your abilities to make. Looking at them, from what I recall of high school shop (it's been a very long time), you may just need to cut the two thick sheet metal pieces to shape, use sheet metal bending tools, drill holes, and add a couple bolts, a couple wingnuts, and a couple springs. You may not even need a milling machine if you bend the sheet metal just right. You can get cylindrical stones a number of different places (including from your Pro-Filer). The patents are long expired, so you could even sell them to the rest of us.

I guess if you want to experiment with adding your own side-honing to existing blades, you do need something like a milling machine? That isn't something the pro shop tools I've seen are designed to do.

[tstop4me]

This is a guess, but I think that a smaller wheeled machine may be what was responsible for my blades having an appearance of a perpendicular line across them every millimeter or two.  It wasn't just visible - I could feel tiny variations in the sharpening depth, meaning that the bottoms of my blade were not very flat but rather more like a wave pattern, meaning more friction on the ice.  I used to use a small teardrop-shaped hand sharpening stone with a smaller radius than my sharpening (which I haven't been able to find another of since) to smooth it out after each sharpening, as this would make it feel better when skating.  I've moved since then, and whatever the last sharpener used on my blades, left a much smoother surface without any manual buffing needed.  A larger wheel will not wear down as fast (changing ROH as it does so).  My instinct would be to go for the larger wheel.

I had a similar issue with one sharpener who used the Incredible Edger machine.  It did use a small diameter wheel (I can't find the specs on the web anymore, but I think it was only 2-1/2" or 3" diam).  But the main issue wasn't the small diam per se (though that was a contributing factor), it was the low-torque motor.  The skate tech gave me a demo.  If he used a very light touch, there would be sufficient chatter to produce the transverse grind marks.  If he used a heavier touch to reduce the chatter, the motor would tend to stall.

Another skate tech I went to used a high-end Blackstone machine with the typical larger diam wheel (7" or 8" diam).  He was an excellent tech, but he did leave residual chatter marks (though not as pronounced as the guy with the Incredible Edger).  He hand buffed the surface of the hollow using a method similar to yours.  There are abrasive-stone grinding bits mounted on a shaft to be used with electric drills or rotary tools (such as Dremel).  One is a nominally conical stone with a rounded tip.  The tech fashioned a crude guide block out of a piece of wood to hold the conical stone, which he used to hand-polish the hollow.  The manufacturers of sharpening machines often recommend using a finer grit wheel or wax for a better final finish.  But this tech preferred to hand polish (each solution has its pluses and minuses; e.g., a separate finish wheel requires either swapping wheels or a second station).

[Query]

Wow - hand polishing with a Dremel or drill! - that must take incredible hand-eye coordination and fine motor control to get right.

I wonder if the use of a polishing fluid - or maybe just an ordinary light oil - would smooth out oscillations and chatter. A lot of skate techs use something like that, when they are being careful. And, if my high school shop info isn't too out of date, oil applied to the object being worked on is also very common in metal shop work, which sharpening actually is. Wouldn't help if the machine is underpowered, but a lubricant helps create clean edges even with hand sharpening, grinding and cutting tools. I don't know enough to explain why though. Maybe without a lubricant, the sharpening, grinding or cutting tool alternately sticks and slips - but that is just a guess. Or maybe the lubricant helps carry away excess heat?

Another issue - it may be important to clean away the filings frequently. If you have a lot of filings hanging around, it might mess up the grind.

I once played for a little bit with one of the old single-wheel Blademasters. It was not underpowered. Even with a coarse grit wheel, it could take off the metal all too fast. But I can't tell you the model #. I'm doubtful that is a problem with any professional grade tool, because they are frequently used for hour after hour. An underpowered motor might burn out if used that way.

I was once told by an electrician that motors that are stronger than needed for a job last much longer than ones that are barely strong enough. He thought it had something to do with how long they stay in "start mode", and with the operating temperature of the windings. He also told me to stay away from devices with motors intended for other voltages or frequencies, even if the differences are small. Also, connect it directly to your A/C outlet - many extension cords and cube taps slightly cut voltage, which kills motors fast. And try to not to put anything with a big switching power supply [UPS, computer, etc.] on the same circuit, because harmonics also mess up motors. Given the cost of these units, you want it to last as long as possible.

[tstop4me]

Wow - hand polishing with a Dremel or drill! - that must take incredible hand-eye coordination and fine motor control to get right.

Just to clarify.  The skate tech did not use a power tool.  He used an abrasive bit designed to be used in a power tool, but without the power tool itself.  As I mentioned above, he fashioned a crude guide from a block of wood to hold the bit.  The guide and bit were then slid back-and-forth along the blade [similar to what you would do with a Pro-Filer] to hand polish the hollow.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.  Just wanted Casey to know that suitable stones are readily available if you know where to look.

[Query]

Oh. I misread what you said.

Do you feel that could do as good a job as a skate sharpening machine?

There are round abrasive cylinders available for drills, that could match the common hollow radii (listed by diameter=2*radius): I've seen them at Harbour Freight.

Also, you can find a variety of cylindrical stones of the proper diameter, sometimes cheaper than Pro-Filer cylinders, by using a search engine and looking for:

    abrasive round stone
    drum sander
    sanding drum
    cylindrical stone
    abrasive cylinder
or, in less durable materials,
    abrasive sleeve
    spiral band
    sanding sleeve
or, for use in a drill or similar tool
    mandril
    mandrel
    arbor

They are sold in many sizes, compositions (a variety of abrasive powders, such as aluminum oxide and diamond dust, embedded in a variety of resins), and grit sizes, for a variety of applications.

[Bill_S]

The Precision Blade Honing Enterprises web site that I linked in another topic sells this for use after grinding...



It uses sandpaper wrapped around the aluminum cylinders in the photo. You change the paper when it wears out. There are two grits for use when polishing. Very clever!

(Sorry for the quality of the photo. I snagged it from their web site and had to up-res it to be a useful size.)

[Casey]

The stone I used was rectangular with two rounded edges - one smaller than the other.  The large one was shallower than my ROH, a tighter curve than a pen has, and the other was a very small curve.  I'd mostly use the wider end, and keep it centered in the hollow with my fingers gliding over the sides of the blade.  I could shift it a bit more towards the inside or outside edge.  It took quite a lot of passes to get the blade to a point I was happy with, as it was a fine stone that did not take off much metal.  "Chatter" is the perfect word to describe the effect on my blades that I was doing that process to remove.  I feel like a wheel shape would be a lot harder to control by hand than a stone with a straight edge, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Casey]

The Precision Blade Honing Enterprises web site that I linked in another topic sells this for use after grinding...



It uses sandpaper wrapped around the aluminum cylinders in the photo. You change the paper when it wears out. There are two grits for use when polishing. Very clever!

(Sorry for the quality of the photo. I snagged it from their web site and had to up-res it to be a useful size.)

Cool, I saw that mentioned in one of their videos, but hadn't looked into it yet.  That definitely looks like a good tool!

[tstop4me]

Do you feel that could do as good a job as a skate sharpening machine?

The end results were good.  His customers included hi-level skaters who were super finicky about their edges.  We were all disappointed when he moved away. 

He was able to use one simple tool for all ROH's and all blade types.  He preferred this technique, rather than dealing with a separate finishing wheel or finishing wax.  But his success depended on a lot of manual skill and experience; a random tech would not be able to pull this off.

[tstop4me]

The stone I used was rectangular with two rounded edges - one smaller than the other.  The large one was shallower than my ROH, a tighter curve than a pen has, and the other was a very small curve.  I'd mostly use the wider end, and keep it centered in the hollow with my fingers gliding over the sides of the blade.  I could shift it a bit more towards the inside or outside edge.  It took quite a lot of passes to get the blade to a point I was happy with, as it was a fine stone that did not take off much metal.  "Chatter" is the perfect word to describe the effect on my blades that I was doing that process to remove.  I feel like a wheel shape would be a lot harder to control by hand than a stone with a straight edge, but maybe I'm wrong.

The stone my tech used wasn't a wheel; it's similar to (though not exactly the same as) this: https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-84922-Silicon-Carbide-Grinding/dp/B00004UDKD/ref=sr_1_43?keywords=conical+grinding+stone&qid=1560943405&s=gateway&sr=8-43  .  It is hard to hold by itself; that's why he fashioned a wooden guide block for it.

I have a rectangular stone with rounded ends similar to what you described.  I made it by manually rounding the ends of a standard rectangular stone against a concrete step.  Should you need one in the future and can't find one commercially available, you can fashion one for yourself fairly readily, since it doesn't require a precision radius.

[Casey]

Great idea, thank you!

[Bill_S]

Wish that I was traveling to New Jersey right now. On the auction site, There's a lightly used Wissota 911 on a stand with vacuum attachment for only $525. The description claims only 3 hours of running time.

That's about a third of the cost of a new one. I've spent more than that on ProFiler hand-sharpening kits over the years.

[Loops]

Wish that I was traveling to New Jersey right now. On the auction site, There's a lightly used Wissota 911 on a stand with vacuum attachment for only $525. The description claims only 3 hours of running time.

That's about a third of the cost of a new one. I've spent more than that on ProFiler hand-sharpening kits over the years.

It's a bit of a haul from Ohio, but hey, why not?!  You only live once, and you can make a weekend out of it!

[Bill_S]

If I was still young and single, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And I did drive to NJ once for the purchase of a large photo copy stand from an individual.

But now I have to answer to a higher authority.

[Query]

Can't you find something else on the auction site that your higher authority would like? She can come along! Do you think she would notice that $525 extra purchase?

BTW, make sure whatever you get is a model you can lift and carry to your vehicle, and to the place you plan to put it. The big ones are heavy.

You probably wouldn't have worn out the Pro-Filer so quickly this time if you'd let a pro shop redo the ROH. I did the same thing once, and had to buy another stone. Pro-Filers are fine for touch-ups, but not for serious modifications.

(Unless Pro-Filers have changed, you only need to buy the new round stone, from Pro-Filer or elsewhere, not the whole kit. On mine, you can remove the pin that keeps the stone in with a pin punch, or equivalent.)

However, it sounds like you have decided you want a powered sharpening tool, so I bet you get one, one way or another. Tell us about your experiences!

While it might seem like the powered sharpener is a good deal economically, it is possible it will take off enough extra metal, compared to the hand tool, to more than make up for the cost of new Pro-Filer stones. I haven't found a skate tech who can take off less than about 0.003" on a competent sharpening with a powered sharpener. And the first few times, if your first tries are like my abortive tries, you will take off a good deal more metal at first.

Which incidentally means you shouldn't start with your good blades. Use old ones, or used ones. Rinks sometimes throw out old rentals, and may give them away if you ask.

Make your first attempts at centering the wheel on both sides of the blade, with the machine turned off (so you just scratch the metal), or by the time you are done, there won't be anything left of your blade. Also, before even doing the scratch, make sure you are close to centered, on both sides by using a precision calipers. And de-warp the blade if needed. (Some fancy blade holders clamp it straight.)

It's very important you get a incrementally adjustable blade holder - if you get one that holds the blade by pressure, so you loosen a bolt, move the blade, re-tighten, and try again, you will waste even more metal.

[Casey]

Which incidentally means you shouldn't start with your good blades. Use old ones, or used ones. Rinks sometimes throw out old rentals, and may give them away if you ask.

This, absolutely.  I've found skates at thrift stores for a few dollars too.  That reminds me of some boots I deserve to sell soon!

Bill, you might contact the seller and ask them about shipping even though they don't advertise it being available.  It's relatively cheap to ship heavy items via Greyhound, which most people don't even realize.  They just need to make a box (wood works best), drop it off at their nearest Greyhound station, and you pick it up at yours.  I've used this suggestion to successfully get several "local pickup only" items shipped.