Wissota or Blademaster?

[ib_jigged]

I bought the Blademaster SBP750 you mentioned in your first post about 3 years ago.  In our town we are about 2-3 hours from the nearest good sharpener and I got to know him and spent half a day with him when I took a dozen pairs of our clubs skaters skates to get sharpened one day and he taught me the ins and outs of sharpening.  He gave me a half dozen blades to practice with and I started sharpening skates for our local skaters.  At $15/pair I paid the unit off in just under three years.  It was an investment, but I will be able to do for years to come.  Not a get rich quick thing at all, but rewarding!

[Bill_S]

Thanks for sharing your experiences with a power sharpener. That puts you in rare air on this board!

I still look at the Wissota and Blademaster sites occasionally - just yesterday in fact!. I still entertain the idea of buying one. I just wish the prices were lower like the Wissota sale in early June.

Because you have used one, what are some of the things to watch for when sharpening? I assume that continuous cuts with light pressure are the way to go, but I assume that there is more "art" to it than just that.

[Leif]

I've owned a Sparx for 7 months and its brilliant. $1000 including figure skate adapter, but it doesn't work with all figure skate blades. I have hockey skates, and do one pass before skating, four passes is a full sharpen. You need to buy a grinding wheel for each hollow. I keep mone in a spare room, no nasty metal sparks, no metal dust. They sometimes have sales, $100 or so less.

[Bill_S]

I have indeed looked over the Sparx sharpeners. The do appear to have a lot going for them, especially the ease of usage.

Thanks for weighing in with your thoughts.

[Bill_S]

Leif, I thought of a question about the Sparx sharpener.

Sparx apparently have a self-centering clamp that allows for sharpening blades of different thickness. Is there an adjustment for this on the machine? Is the feature trouble-free?

[Query]

The Sparx user manual is online: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0932/7770/files/11058D_Users_Manual_Text_bleed.pdf?16234843337139765932

I've owned a Sparx for 7 months and its brilliant. $1000 including figure skate adapter, but it doesn't work with all figure skate blades. I have hockey skates, and do one pass before skating, four passes is a full sharpen. You need to buy a grinding wheel for each hollow.

Have you measured how much metal it takes off in one pass, with the grinding ring height set to 1 to take off the least metal? (E.g., find a reference point on which you can repeatedly position a micrometer or high precision calipers, and measure the before/after distance to the bottom of the blade...)

I didn't realize it had a figure blade holder. Potentially, that sounds like a very big plus for the people on this forum.

https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/faq says

We offer a figure skate adapter for $99. With the figure skate adapter in place, Sparx can sharpen most traditional, flat-sided blades. Sparx is not compatible with the multiple-piece blades often used in competitive skating.

https://www.sparxhockey.com/collections/accessories/products/sparx-figure-skate-adapter, including the very informative video there, provides additional info, and provides a contact point.

But the video left me with some obvious questions, which I just sent to Sparx:

I watched the video at https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/installing-the-figure-skate-adapters

1. Do I understand correctly that you are expecting the Sparx sharpener to remove 1-2 mm of steel during the sharpening process?

2. The blade in the video has been slightly rounded off at the tail - i.e., the rocker radius is less there. Does the Sparx sharpener tend to do that on figure blades?

3. You say it doesn't work on multi-piece blades, I assume you specifically mean Ultima Matrix and Paramount blades? Have you tested it on MK and Wilson "Revolution" blades?

4. Am I correct that each sharpening will introduce a slight forwards to backwards tilt, shifting the skater's balance slightly backwards?

I'm pretty happy myself with using hand tools - at this point it only takes me a few minutes, though there is a learning curve and initially I made mistakes. But I bet the Sparx could do an ROH change pretty fast, without wearing out an expensive hand tool.

I'm guessing the Sparx isn't fancy enough to let you create or restore a custom rocker profile. I could be wrong, and have often been wrong before. If I'm right, Bill, since you love to play with tools, it might not do everything you would like to be able to do. Maybe if you are going to invest in a power tool, you should go all the way to something that gives you more control?

If my guesses are right about the Sparx tool, based on the video, you COULD choose to remove less metal than the 1-2 mm they appear to imply should be removed on their video with each sharpening - once the tail has been rounded off what might be their way.

Even 1 mm is more than an order of magnitude more metal than the .003 inch (.0762 mm)  (two different expert pro sharpeners have told me they try to remove. At that rate, a figure blade would have a substantially different shape, and be judged almost unusable by many picky figure skaters, after 3 or 4 sharpenings - rather expensive given the high cost of the best figure skating blades.

And just to be clear - many figure skaters don't want the tail to be rounded off at all.

I do like that it appears that the Sparx lets you sharpen almost right up to the toe pick.

My guess that the figure skate sharpening process Sparx endorses in the video does introduce a slight forwards/backwards tilt - because you adjust the tail mount to sharpen the tail, but keep the toe piece mount height the same, so as to miss the back pick, is a potential problem with any skate sharpening device. Some pro sharpeners do that too, on any machine. But most of the most expert pro sharpeners do eventually trim the back toe pick a little. I suppose you might be able to do that with the Sparx too, by adjusting the height of the toe pick mount.

(Because of the shape of the toe pick, it isn't really possible to maintain the same relationship between the the toe pick and the rest of the blade without trimming it or adjusting the tilt, as you gradually remove metal during skating and successive sharpenings. That's probably the biggest reason most figure skaters consider an old, many-times sharpened blade to no longer be adequate.)

[Bill_S]

I agree that 1 mm is a massive amount to remove. It makes me wonder if a leading decimal point was omitted from the cited figure.

It takes real work to remove that much steel during one sharpening. It can be done, but I suspect that something is amiss with the specs.

BTW, their statement that it works with only flat-sided blades appears to exclude side-hone or tapered blades. It must be a limitation of the clamping mechanism.

That fact would make it undesirable to most higher-level figure skaters who tend to use non-flat blades or multi-part blades.

[Query]

I agree that 1 mm is a massive amount to remove. It makes me wonder if a leading decimal point was omitted from the cited figure.

In the video, 1 or 2 mm looks about the amount they mean. But it isn't perfectly clear if the machine actually takes off that much, or whether the figure skating clamps merely physically constrain it not to take more.

Also, in the video the machine takes many passes to sharpen the figure skate. Perhaps it can be set to use fewer, and take off less metal.

If Sparx responds to me, I will post their response. Perhaps it will be enlightening. But I may have asked too many questions, or sounded too picky to be a good customer.

BTW, their statement that it works with only flat-sided blades appears to exclude side-hone or tapered blades. It must be a limitation of the clamping mechanism. That fact would make it undesirable to most higher-level figure skaters who tend to use non-flat blades or multi-part blades.

According to the elite skate techs I've spoken to, not all elite level figure skaters use non-parallel sided blades (one common definition of "side honed"), and not all feel it matters.

I personally guess that by multi-part blades Sparx specifically means Paramount and Ultima Matrix blades, because the part the clamp might lock onto isn't very flat at all, but comprises two flat surfaces, as well as an upraised curved surface: Sparx's example of a blade that won't work is here.

If the clamps really do a good job of being self centering, I'm not sure if an ordinary degree of side honing would matter much, because side honing on figure blades is generally only a few thousandths of an inch, and often less, and is quite gradual, and might be insignificant over the size of the clamps they show in the video, though it is possible that dovetail cut blades might not be flat enough for those clamps. I have no idea whether the Sparx sharpener is consistent enough to maintain the desired shape for dovetail cut blades, because altering the rocker profile on such blades also make the blade width and edge angle vary in complicated ways along the blade. Also, if any skater actually benefits significantly from other forms of side honing I assume you need extremely precise and consistent sharpening to meet their exacting requirements. I have no idea whether the Sparx is that good. Perhaps it is.

[ib_jigged]

Using my Blademaster, I make nice slow and even sweeping motions along the wheel.  I would guess I remove way less than 1mm when doing a sharpening of the same ROH.  I keep a book with notes on all the skaters and blades and their preferences on sharpening to make sure I am not removing more metal and also not to change the rocker diameter.  My daughters blades after 3 years are starting to show a "flat" spot towards the pick, but we just picked up new Elara's w/Aurora blades for her.  I probably sharpened hers about every 2-3 months over 3 years.  You do not want to round off the end of the blade at all.

The main thing is to take your time and use nice even light pressure strokes in a sweeping manner.  I was lucky to spend some time with a respected skate shop owner that shared his wisdom with me prior my jump into sharpening.

[Bill_S]

Three years of power sharpenings done that frequently is good blade life. You must have "the touch".

Thanks for the additional information. If I get one of the sharpening machines, I'll seek out someone experienced. It sounds like the fastest way to learn.

BTW, when the Aurora blades arrive, please come back to share your opinion of sharpening stainless steel blades. One tech I spoke to had a strong opinion about it.

[tstop4me]

If my guesses are right about the Sparx tool, based on the video, you COULD choose to remove less metal than the 1-2 mm they appear to imply should be removed on their video with each sharpening - once the tail has been rounded off what might be their way.

I watched the video.  It never suggests removing 1 - 2 mm (which is a lot!).  It recommends initially setting the rear adapter such that 1 - 2 mm of the blade is exposed (i.e., protruding below the rear adapter).  The final positioning of the rear adapter is later fine tuned such that the sharpening portion of the wheel touches the tail of the blade.  It never says to keep sharpening away until the sharpening portion of the wheel hits the adapter.

[Bill_S]

That would explain things. Thanks.

I'm glad you took the time to watch the video. I seldom have patience for videos.

[tstop4me]

I seldom have patience for videos.

Videos of Peggy Fleming are an exception though, correct?   

[Bill_S]

Good memory!

Yes, an exception. MotoGP motorcycle road racing is another weakness.

[Query]

After I sent a message to Sparx,

I watched the video at https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/installing-the-figure-skate-adapters

1. Do I understand correctly that you are expecting the Sparx sharpener to remove 1-2 mm of steel during the sharpening process?

2. The blade in the video has been slightly rounded off at the tail - i.e., the rocker radius is less there. Does the Sparx sharpener tend to do that on figure blades?

3. You say it doesn't work on multi-piece blades, I assume you specifically mean Ultima Matrix and Paramount blades? Have you tested it on MK and Wilson "Revolution" blades?

4. Am I correct that each sharpening will introduce a slight forwards to backwards tilt, shifting the skater's balance slightly backwards?

they responded

Hello,
​
Thank you for your interest in Sparx! Each cycle (down and back) removes .0005" of steel. This is much less than even 1 mm of steel.
​
Due to its consistent pressure on the full length of the steel, the Sparx sharpener will not change the rocker radius during the life of the steel. It will follow whichever profile is currently on the steel.

The Sparx sharpener is not compatible with any multi-piece steel including MK and Wilson Revolution. The skate clamp needs to be able to clamp securely to the steel and the blade holder on this type of steel is not compatible with the skate clamp on the sharpener.
​
Because the sharpener follows the existing profile, the steel will not change the tilt of the steel.
​
Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Kind regards,
Lisa

Lisa Humphreys
Customer Service Representative
Sparx Hockey

Increments of .0005" removal is quite acceptable, by powered-machine-sharpening standards, given that two different expert skate techs (Mike C and Don Giese) told me they usually try to remove about .003" during a figure skate sharpening.

I still think an ideal sharpening machine WOULD be able to alter the rocker profile, because that is sometimes desired. But for the most part, maintaining the current rocker profile is an excellent starting point, and is what one wants to do most of the time. Perhaps you could work out a way to modify the profile, or at least accentuate the sweet spot, with some type of jig that you put inside?

Have you looked at the relative price points for a Sparx machine vs a minimal but adequate used Wissota, BladeMaster, Blackstone or Skateology brand powered sharpener? (Any any other good brands that exist?) Maybe the Sparx is more portable than the others, if that is an issue. E.g., if you wanted to set up your own traveling mini-shop in retirement, or keep it with you in your car.

I suspect there are a number of on-line comparisons available of the various machines, but haven't looked. If you know any good skate techs who have used several well enough, maybe you could ask them for advice?

I love the idea of a self-centering holder, like Sparx has.

It would be nice if someone on this board could review how well they work with figure skate blades. Do you suppose they would lend you one for review on this board?

As I think I mentioned, the only powered machine I have used (but do not own) was a small old used Blademaster. It was heavy, sturdy, and fairly intuitive to use, but it had a blade holder which did NOT do automatic centering, and which was very hard to adjust correctly - you loosened the bolts, moved the blade, re-tightened the bolts, and tried again. However, Blademaster also sells blade holders than can be adjusted more easily and consistently. If I were looking for a powered sharpener, I would view how easy it is to adjust the current blade holder as one of the most important evaluation criteria. Blademaster also has a lot of on-line videos available, from themselves, and from others, partly because they are so common.

Since some of the used models have been around for quite a while, I would also want to check the availability and price of supplies and replacement parts for any used machine I bought. But I guess that is second nature to an engineer like yourself.

[Bill_S]

Increments of .0005" removal ...

That's more like it.

It is looking to be a promising machine. There are a lot of moving parts for the money, compared to the standard sharpeners.

I just saw a really old Wissota on eBay for $210, plus $103 shipping from Connecticut. The skate holder was modified by a previous owner. It's bad looking enough that I'd have to see it in person to have an opinion about its worth.

[Query]

I didn't realize machine quality goes up with the number of moving parts. I thought it was often the other way around.

Why are you giving up on hand held sharpeners? If you want a way to make major shape changes quickly, buy a coarse grain abrasive cylinder and put it in your Pro-Filer. Then touch it up with the normal stones. Not as fast as a power tool, but if it is just for yourself, you don't need to sharpen super-fast.

If you want to take a risk on a really cheap powered skate sharpener, you could import one from China.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957296730.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.8782501fWZTLEs&algo_pvid=7249b89b-422e-409b-beff-8357ac2079d7&algo_expid=7249b89b-422e-409b-beff-8357ac2079d7-3&btsid=bfe06001-0e12-42ed-90eb-cb900282376c&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3,searchweb201603_60

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32970079189.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.8782501fWZTLEs&algo_pvid=7249b89b-422e-409b-beff-8357ac2079d7&algo_expid=7249b89b-422e-409b-beff-8357ac2079d7-4&btsid=bfe06001-0e12-42ed-90eb-cb900282376c&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3,searchweb201603_60

BTW, I have no idea how well they work, or if they even let you grind a hollow. Maybe you have to speak Chinese to ask questions!

Cheers.

[tstop4me]

I still think an ideal sharpening machine WOULD be able to alter the rocker profile, because that is sometimes desired.

Ideally, yes.  But the SPARX is geared for home users, at a price point on the order of $1000 or less.  The top-of-the-line ProSharp AS 2001 (https://prosharp.us/products/as-2001-allpro) can profile blades ... at a price point on the order of $11,000 (base).  And that's via stock templates (extra) for hockey blades.  I don't know whether the unit can profile figure skate blades; but, even if it can, you would need custom templates (likely a lot extra).

[Bill_S]

I didn't realize machine quality goes up with the number of moving parts. I thought it was often the other way around.

Why are you giving up on hand held sharpeners?

Oh, I'm not giving up on hand sharpeners! I see real advantages to them even if I had a power sharpener in the shop. Hand sharpeners allow blades to last longer.

It's the other things, like a custom ROH, changing between ROH values, or a subtle reshaping of a blade that a power sharpener can do best.

The number of moving parts generally lowers machine tolerances and reliability, but there are exceptions. For example, my 2017 Toyota, in spite of it's complexity, is worlds better in quality and reliability than my much simpler 1964 Ford.

[Query]

It's the other things, like a custom ROH, changing between ROH values, or a subtle reshaping of a blade that a power sharpener can do best.

AFAICT, the only one of those three things that Sparx can do is change between ROH values. So, though you say you don't like looking at videos, you might want to look at Sparx's videos and other docs, before purchase.

They only sell fixed grinding ring sizes, not custom sizes, though it is a wider variety of sizes than Pro-Filer covers:
  https://www.sparxhockey.com/collections/grinding-rings/products/1-2-radius-ring

If you just want to TRY one or two ROH sizes (e.g., 7/16"?), it would be cheaper to pay a pro shop for a trial sharpening.

Sparx provides no obvious way to reshape the rocker profile.

AFAICT, it provides no way to create side honing, though I'm not sure any commercial skate sharpening machine can.

[ib_jigged]

Three years of power sharpenings done that frequently is good blade life. You must have "the touch".

Thanks for the additional information. If I get one of the sharpening machines, I'll seek out someone experienced. It sounds like the fastest way to learn.

BTW, when the Aurora blades arrive, please come back to share your opinion of sharpening stainless steel blades. One tech I spoke to had a strong opinion about it.

This is the second pair of Aurora's that my daughter has skated in, and a few other local girls are on them as well.  I have no issue with sharpening them as I take very light sweeps with all blades.  They do however seem to lose their edge a little easier than the carbon steel, but that is expected as stainless is a little "softer" than carbon.

[tstop4me]

This is the second pair of Aurora's that my daughter has skated in, and a few other local girls are on them as well.  I have no issue with sharpening them as I take very light sweeps with all blades.  They do however seem to lose their edge a little easier than the carbon steel, but that is expected as stainless is a little "softer" than carbon.

That's strange.  My experience with the Aurora vs Coronation Ace was the exact opposite:  the edges on the Aurora lasted much longer.  One of the biggest selling points of stainless steel vs plain carbon steel (besides no rust) is the extended edge life; otherwise, blade manufacturers wouldn't use it, since stainless steel is more expensive and more difficult to work than plain carbon steel.  Depending on the specific grades, thermal treatment, and mechanical treatment, both stainless steel and plain carbon steel can be hardened to the same values (in the range serviceable for blade use), but stainless steel can have a higher toughness value.  There are other parameters that affect edge life, but hardness and toughness are the principal ones. 

[Bill_S]

It looks like there are various viewpoints about sharpening stainless steel. My former fitter didn't like to sharpen stainless blades. He didn't elaborate why.

[tstop4me]

It looks like there are various viewpoints about sharpening stainless steel. My former fitter didn't like to sharpen stainless blades. He didn't elaborate why.

I know you like a lot of the stuff offerred by PBHE.  This is their opinion of stainless-steel blades (http://precisionblade.com/index.php/glossary/; see entry under "stainless steel blades"):

"Stainless steel blades have a chromium content that causes the steel to curl preventing a clean sharp edge. Due to this PBHE does not currently sharpen these blades. Stainless has the advantage of being rust resistant but at a cost of reduced edge control. Stainless 440 C and AUS 8 has other specific grinding problems that have yet to be solved by grinding specialists."

I strongly disagree with them.  Various manufacturers and sharpeners (knife blades as well as skate blades) have solved the problems.

Just spoke to a skate tech about this recently.  At some point, he had written HD Sports (Wilson/MK) asking them why they haven't switched to stainless steel (which he prefers).  All he got back was a long letter extolling the virtues of plain carbon steel.

[tstop4me]

This is the second pair of Aurora's that my daughter has skated in, and a few other local girls are on them as well.  I have no issue with sharpening them as I take very light sweeps with all blades.  They do however seem to lose their edge a little easier than the carbon steel, but that is expected as stainless is a little "softer" than carbon.

Curious what your daughter wore before the Aurora.  And if you found that the edges don't last as long, why did you buy a second pair?