Just not sure what to do next.

[MCsAngel2]

Spent a good 90 minutes fiddling with the skates last night. Received my yellow superfeet...and discovered they are only slightly stiffer than the insoles already in my Jackson Debuts. Actually they are thinner/less padded.

First I tried them out in my regular shoes. Awesome! Loved them.

Then, in the skates....no change.

In fact, I have just realized, it isn't just when skating, my feet hurt whenever I'm standing in the skates, even at home. Comparing to when I had the superfeet in my regular shoes, it's just that the soles of the skates are so, so, hard. I need some cushioning everywhere, and there isn't room for any. I know this should have been obvious from the start, but I thought it was part of breaking in new boots (maybe it still is??) that I didn't experience when I was younger in less stiff boots.

I can't figure it out. I know as you age, you lose fat padding in your feet, but I am seeing lots of older skaters on the boards who don't appear to have this problem. Some people are even talking about their skates feeling like slippers!! Last night, I was really aware of the fact that just standing is painful (makes my lower back ache too) and I haven't ever read ANYTHING that says just standing off ice should hurt.

I did notice, after I had completely unlaced and loosened the tongue, that most of the pain (not all) was gone when I stood up. So, maybe they are a tad tight, and I should either get them heat molded again, or punched out. The sole is the Fusion sole, and I feel like that will never 'break in' compared to a LCL or LCF sole, but I don't really know that.

Yeah, I know, I need to talk to my skate tech. I know he's really experienced (20 years, clearly knowledgeable about Jackson products), but I have visions of going in and him just looking at me and shrugging.

[tstop4me]

The sole is the Fusion sole, and I feel like that will never 'break in' compared to a LCL or LCF sole, but I don't really know that.

Here you are referring to the outer sole.  It is nominally rigid, and you should not expect it to "break in", in the sense of the outer sole conforming to your feet.  There is some degree of break-in, but in the sense of the outer sole conforming to the blade (since the match between the outer sole and the blade mounting plates are typically not ideal; and the mounting plates typically are far more rigid than the outer sole).

[MCsAngel2]

As an aside, I'm thinking about taking out the molded insoles (the Jackson poron insoles or the yellow superfeet) altogether and putting in plain gel insoles with tiny heel lifts and tiny arch wedges.

[Loops]

As an aside, I'm thinking about taking out the molded insoles (the Jackson poron insoles or the yellow superfeet) altogether and putting in plain gel insoles with tiny heel lifts and tiny arch wedges.

I say you have nothing to lose by trying this.  I've been following your threads, because, well, skates hurt, and I experience similar issues to your, but only those rare times that I'm in my skates for longer than 2 hours.  In my experience this kind of pain does eventually go away.  But that's me.

I would be careful though- too much squish means less control over your skates.  But go for it!

[dlbritton]

As an aside, I'm thinking about taking out the molded insoles (the Jackson poron insoles or the yellow superfeet) altogether and putting in plain gel insoles with tiny heel lifts and tiny arch wedges.

I use the Riedell R-Fit kit and have been pleased. I use the High arch part and the Pronation heel lifts.

I have custom orthotics for my ski boots but they are a bit thick to use in my skates. So far the Riedell kit has been sufficient for my skates.

[MCsAngel2]

I use the Riedell R-Fit kit and have been pleased. I use the High arch part and the Pronation heel lifts.

I have custom orthotics for my ski boots but they are a bit thick to use in my skates. So far the Riedell kit has been sufficient for my skates.

What does the footbed that comes with it look like, without any of the arch attachments? Is it relatively flat, like insoles you buy at the store? Or is it highly molded, like yellow superfeet (which also what my Jackson insoles look like)?

I am wondering if my pain is coming from the super high arches on these things, and I need something lower.

[Bill_S]

Jumping in here. You can find color photos of it at the Riedell site and larger photos at retailers' sites. Riedell has a PDF manual for fitting them. The manual lists various symptoms and what part of the kit to use to address the issue.

https://ice.riedellskates.com/wp-content/uploads/R-Fit-Footbed-Kit-Booklet-Instructions-EN.pdf

[AgnesNitt]

McAngel, have you tried tying your laces differently?

[MCsAngel2]

Saturday evening update: The yellow superfeet are definitely a bust ($50 of Amazon gift cards wasted  I cut them to fit, so I can't return them.) I put the Jackson soles back in, and yeah, they are better.

I also realized that the boots have 'shrunk' some since the original heat molding on 5/4 and my followup with a hairdryer the next day, for my left big toe. It was totally fine after that, until today. The left toe is pushing against it again. And oddly enough, so is my RIGHT big toe, a bit. My right foot also started cramping....so I removed all the extra padding I'd put alongside the heel, to compensate for the right foot being smaller. I removed EVERYTHING except for the extra padding behind the heel, and suddenly the boot seems to fit correctly, except that both are feeling too tight around the ball (especially the right, which is so odd considering it's my smaller foot). I will take them back to the tech next week and have them punched out (don't want to heat mold again because I don't want to mess with how the back of the boots are fitting).

Switching the soles back and taking out the extra padding, they don't hurt to stand on today. That the big toes are pushing against the boot are bothering me, but I think I can spot heat them with the hair dryer enough to go skating tomorrow (I haven't skated since 6/4).

I hadn't realized until now how gradually these things can happen, going from minimal pain to a lot of pain, making you think something else is wrong. If I have to get them punched (which I didn't do before), makes me think I'll have to keep doing it every so often. However, I feel a little bit more optimistic  tonight. I have spent four figures on getting all set up, which maybe was going overboard as a beginner, but I didn't realize how difficult it would be (and some of the stuff I bought was a waste as I'm not using them). The $500 I spent on skates isn't why I'm going to so much trouble now...I think I would spend that amount again if I knew I could get something that worked. But I'm going to be hella disappointed if I don't get anywhere.

While I'm at the tech, I'll probably bring up moving my left blade again. It was moved inside a tiny bit to offset the pronation in that foot, but it doesn't feel right...it feels like the back is too far outside and it makes my movement on that foot keep moving to the right instead of straight.

[icepixie]

When I had Jacksons, I pretty much had to have a boot punch in the toe area any time I wasn't wearing them.  They would hold a punch for maybe 3-4 days at best.  I just bought a pair of ball and ring pliers and continually stretched/punched the problem area, which for me was also the big toe in both boots.

I hope your tech can help and you can get these to work.

[tstop4me]

When I had Jacksons, I pretty much had to have a boot punch in the toe area any time I wasn't wearing them.  They would hold a punch for maybe 3-4 days at best.  I just bought a pair of ball and ring pliers and continually stretched/punched the problem area, which for me was also the big toe in both boots.

I hope your tech can help and you can get these to work.

Jacksons are heat moldable.  Wouldn't the proper procedure be to heat the boots in an oven, and then punch them out?  The punch out should then hold.

[Casey]

I'm in the "my skates are as comfy as slippers" camp, to the point that if I forget extra socks and my ankles start hurting when my socks get soaked in sweat, I can skate more comfortably without socks.  There's a few factors at play here:

1.  My skates are fully custom Klingbeils.  The fit is extremely good.  I do feel some discomfort in my toes if I do a lot of toe jumps, and I do feel that the toe box could perhaps be a bit shorter than it is to prevent that.  That's my only minor complaint.

2.  I don't tie the bottom half of the laces very tight - just snug.  That may be contributing to the toe jump discomfort, however, I find that if I tie the laces over my arch too tight, then I get sore feet.  That was also the case in my first decent skates, which were not custom and had replaceable insoles.  I tried Superfeet with proper arch support and found them worse than the stock insoles which were pretty flat.  I used to tie those skates tight the whole way because they were too big for my feet.  I think that the high insole support in conjunction with tight laces is a perfect recipe for hurting feet.

3.  My current insoles aren't replaceable.  Both them and the entire inside of my skates is leather, which is why I can get away with wearing them without socks.  Sweaty leather is much more comfortable against the skin than sweaty socks.  This is significantly more comfortable than the exposed porous rubber padding that many lower-end skates have, even with socks.

4.  I use 100% cotton laces, which don't have any stretch.  They stay as tight as I tie them for hours of skating if I don't stop and change socks.  With other types of laces I might be inclined to tie them extra tight as I'd know they would loosen up the more I skated.

Hopefully this helps give some insights!

[icepixie]

Jacksons are heat moldable.  Wouldn't the proper procedure be to heat the boots in an oven, and then punch them out?  The punch out should then hold.

I did that multiple times.  Punches still sunk right back to the original shape.

[MCsAngel2]

Yeah, if the heat molding kept everything in the correct shape, then this wouldn't have happened (or happened to dozens of other skaters I've read about).

Just got back from skating today. May I just say, the sensation of having both heels stay in place is AMAZING. I really do think the boots have shrunk all around a bit, they're almost perfect in the back. (the back of the right heel still moved a tiny, tiny bit, but the three layers of foam in that narrow crevice is so much better than the one I had before, and it's so much easier all around not having any other padding in the back around the sides). It was also so much better NOT wearing the gel sleeves - I skate barefoot and it feels so much better being able to feel everything.

Didn't really have the problems with the big toe today like I did last night, maybe it was that thing where your feet are bigger at the end of the day than they are earlier, or the hairdrying I did yesterday really helped. The balls did feel a tiny bit too snug (the right more than the left, which again, is so odd because my right foot is smaller than my left). After lacing and walking around a bit, I relaced and left the instep laces pretty loose, as loose as I've ever had them, and I still had burning in my soles after an hour, which to me is a level just above cramping. So I'm kind of conflicted now about whether I want to have them punched or not (DEFINTELY no more heat molding), and also whether or not I should have my blades sharpened again (only after 7.5 hours skating) - I've got a nick in my right blade that I can feel, but I can skate fine if the ice isn't a mess (which it was today - they never zambonied part way through the 3 hour session like they are supposed to).

And my feet definitely weren't in pain like they were on the superfeet. Today I felt like I was really getting to that point where I feel competent moving on the ice (meaning - you step out on the ice, and just go, and don't have to find your balance first). I had two collisions with little kids (first time that's happened) and managed to stay upright and make sure the kids were upright. I'm still out of shape, it's hard for me to go more than an hour. I did 80 minutes a couple of weeks ago and my legs were like lead at the end, could barely move them.

Thanks to everyone for following my saga. Any opinions on having the balls/toes punched out when they're just borderline too snug?

[MCsAngel2]

4.  I use 100% cotton laces, which don't have any stretch.  They stay as tight as I tie them for hours of skating if I don't stop and change socks.  With other types of laces I might be inclined to tie them extra tight as I'd know they would loosen up the more I skated.

Hopefully this helps give some insights!

I wanted to comment on this. My Jacksons also have 100% cotton laces, and I love them. The Riedells I had as a teenager had nylon laces, and cotton is SO much better. Do any boot makers even use nylon laces anymore??

[Query]

Heat molding almost completely undoes punches, because it lets the leather relax back to an earlier shape (one that was probably impressed into the leather when the boot was made, by carefully heat molding at a higher temperature, under very high pressure, maybe with steam, by experts). So I agree, punch after heat.

And punches can only make minor changes, unless you keep redoing the punch.

I eventually bought a cheaper version of a punch for myself - variously called "ball and ring pliers", "hoke and ball pliers", or the iron or steel variety of bunion stretchers, so I could keep redoing it, every few weeks. I have a few tips on that at http://mgrunes.com/boots/boots.html Basically, you want to use a hand-held hair dryer to warm up the place you are going to stretch (basically, a local heat mold, under pressure), then tighten the ball and ring done on the place (and maybe put a thin piece of cloth on the outside portion, if you care about keeping the surface nice), come back in an hour, re-heat and re-tighten, repeat several times, leave it overnight, re-heat and retighten, and give it at least a few more hours. You can also first soften the leather with alcohol, though that won't help with the stiffening elements that are between the layers of leather, and it isn't all that good for the leather. You probably don't want to apply alcohol to the outside, because it would tend to remove the finish and gloss layers. To some extent that iterative procedure is needed because a ball and ring pliers can't generate as much pressure as the industrial strength punches that the pro shop probably uses.

And yes, nylon laces are still available. So are waxed cotton laces, which slip back less easily than unwaxed cotton. I use round nylon parachute cord or utility cord, because it is very easy on the fingers, and is easy to tighten. I chose a diameter which grabs the lace holes a bit, so they don't slip back much. But people here have different preferences from each other. There are a number of different ways to lace your boots too.

This whole learning process of making skates fit and work for you can be an interesting journey. Try to enjoy it, rather than be annoyed by it. When you are done, you just might be able to make your other shoes more comfortable on YOU than even most podiatrists can manage.

[MCsAngel2]

Does anyone know if the skate tech will need to heat the skates again before punching?? I hope not....

[Query]

Some skate techs do, some don't. But if so they only heat the area they are punching - with a hair dryer or (if they are brave, because the air gets dangerously hot) a heat gun. That way, any other punch doesn't get undone.

One problem some skate techs have - they are pushed to work very quickly, and to get the skates out of the shop fast. If you don't punch at least overnight, and retighten after that and leave it for longer, the punch tends not to last as well. Some people claim you need at least 24 hours to do a full punch, and I have sometimes used longer, when I had the time. I also sometimes leave a boot in ball-and-ring pliers in between skates, to keep it punched. But that is extreme - only needed because my skates originally fit very poorly.

Also - Do NOT leave your skates in a hot car in the summer. That is a bit like heat molding them, without the proper molding pressure. Maybe that is why yours unpunched themselves? If you have a house with a dehumidifier, that is a better environment to keep them in, in any event - helps prevent rot.

BTW - did someone tell you how important it is to dry out your blades completely after use? They can rust or corrode, and also lose their edge. If stored long, especially if the house isn't well-dehumidified, coat them with oil or grease.

[Sibelius]

One problem some skate techs have - they are pushed to work very quickly, and to get the skates out of the shop fast. If you don't punch at least overnight, and retighten after that and leave it for longer, the punch tends not to last as well. Some people claim you need at least 24 hours to do a full punch, and I have sometimes used longer, when I had the time.

Our tech needs 2 days for a proper punch.  And you should know that the Jackson microfiber boots don't punch and hold nearly as well as leather boots.

[MCsAngel2]

I've always kept my skates indoors. I live in Phoenix, so that's kind of a no brainer. I always have them fully exposed and open to dry out for at least 12 hours, and I always wipe the blades and soles thoroughly when I get off the ice. Again, I'm in Phoenix, as dry as you can get in the US so no dehumidifying necessary.

I'll have to ask my skate tech how much time is needed to punch so I can drop them off during the week. They've never been punched- just heat molded the day I picked them up.

[Query]

Our tech needs 2 days for a proper punch.  And you should know that the Jackson microfiber boots don't punch and hold nearly as well as leather boots.

It's great that your tech is able to dedicate a punch to a boot that long. Is that 2 days/boot, or 2 days/pair? And is he using the full blown professional bench punches, that look like the ones in ski shops, rather than silly little pliers like me? Does he use heat and alcohol?

What part of the boot is microfiber? Do microfiber boots have other advantages that compensate for that issue? Do you like them?

[tstop4me]

I wanted to comment on this. My Jacksons also have 100% cotton laces, and I love them. The Riedells I had as a teenager had nylon laces, and cotton is SO much better. Do any boot makers even use nylon laces anymore??

If you're using the original laces supplied by Jackson, they're not 100% cotton, they're 100% polyester.  Actually, 100% cotton laces are hard to find these days.

[MCsAngel2]

Hmmm...I emailed the skate shop yesterday and the tech assistant says he only needs a half hour or so to punch out the skates?? Well, anyway, I think it should be adequate since it's only borderline too tight to me right now.