Jackson Debut Boot

[Sibelius]

I can't comment on the padding difference since I haven't seen the Freestyle Fusion up close, we chose the Debut Fusion Standard boot four months ago for my skater.  The Elle/Freestyle and Debut are built on the Elite last.  This quote is directly from Jackson when I asked a few months ago:

"We have now introduced Debut, Freestyle and Elle made with our Fusion sole which all use our Elite last with a higher heel.  This changes the blade fit but does not change how the skate fits in length."

Hope this gives you a little more info.  You can always send a message to Jackson via their website contact page.  I've asked them several questions and they've always replied within a day or so.

[JSHalo]

Just popping in to say that I ordered the Debut "low cut" (the original, not the Fusion). I should have them next week, and I will let you all know what I think of them They'll be my first pair of dance boots.

[tstop4me]

I can't comment on the padding difference since I haven't seen the Freestyle Fusion up close, we chose the Debut Fusion Standard boot four months ago for my skater.  The Elle/Freestyle and Debut are built on the Elite last.  This quote is directly from Jackson when I asked a few months ago:

"We have now introduced Debut, Freestyle and Elle made with our Fusion sole which all use our Elite last with a higher heel.  This changes the blade fit but does not change how the skate fits in length."

Hope this gives you a little more info.  You can always send a message to Jackson via their website contact page.  I've asked them several questions and they've always replied within a day or so.

When did Jackson tell you that the Debut was built on the Elite last? Their website explicitly states that the new Elle and Freestyle are built on the Elite last, but no such statement for the Debut.  And here's a post from Sept 2017 in reference to the Debut last (original sole, not Fusion):

Here is the response to the question I asked Jackson about whether the Debut was built on the Elite last or not.

"Little different from the Elite last but very similar. Fit and feel are appropriate for intermediate level with support for Axel/doubles"

[tothepointe]

The debut has a lot more padding than the freestyle to get a better heel lock but I had issues with it rubbing on my left foot and causing a pump bump. I think however it is a big improvement on the Freestyle which I've been in before.

[lutefisk]

I've been asleep at the switch--has Jackson discontinued the Free Style boot?  From this discussion I'm assuming that the debut is the replacement boot.

[tstop4me]

I've been asleep at the switch--has Jackson discontinued the Free Style boot?  From this discussion I'm assuming that the debut is the replacement boot.

There is a newly redesigned Freestyle Fusion.  The Freestyle used to be the introductory model in the "Competitive" line, available as a boot only.  In ~2014 it was downgraded to the "Recreational" line, available only as a kit with pre-mounted Ultima blades.  The Debut is currently the entry model in the Competitive line.

[Bill_S]

It's hard to keep up anymore!

[tothepointe]

Yup Jackson goes a little nuts with the new product releases and then scrapping them. I guess the NEW thing now is the new Legacy blade with the 7' rocker which is supposed to be more like that Coronation Ace except the Legacy was supposed to be like the Coronation Ace to begin with.

[Loops]

Yup Jackson goes a little nuts with the new product releases and then scrapping them. I guess the NEW thing now is the new Legacy blade with the 7' rocker which is supposed to be more like that Coronation Ace except the Legacy was supposed to be like the Coronation Ace to begin with.

Because the CorAce has a 7' rocker and the Ultima's all have 8'.  So now it's even more like the CorAce.

And I'm pretty fed up with Jackson's swapping out their boot models on what seems to be an annual basis.  Since I need split-widths I was hoping to get Jacksons, and know what I need so I can just order them myself from a local (=European) distributer.  But I just don't trust their consistency.  I'm hoping I'll be able to go with Riedell.....

[Sibelius]

When did Jackson tell you that the Debut was built on the Elite last? Their website explicitly states that the new Elle and Freestyle are built on the Elite last, but no such statement for the Debut.  And here's a post from Sept 2017 in reference to the Debut last (original sole, not Fusion):

That's a direct quote from Jackson responding to me via email on January 5, 2018 after I asked them about blade length for the new Fusion soles.  I just replaced the Matrix Poron insoles with new ones and noticed that stamped inside on the boot is "Elite".

[tstop4me]

That's a direct quote from Jackson responding to me via email on January 5, 2018 after I asked them about blade length for the new Fusion soles.  I just replaced the Matrix Poron insoles with new ones and noticed that stamped inside on the boot is "Elite".

Thanks.  That makes more sense now.  Looks like Jackson really didn't think through the original Debut.  It made no sense to me that the new Elle Fusion and new Freestyle Fusion, which are lower models than the Debut, would be made on the more advanced Elite last, while the original Debut [now discontinued] had its own non-Elite last.   Looks like they've fixed that with the Debut Fusion, but haven't updated their website.

[tstop4me]

It's hard to keep up anymore!

Ah, that's because you remember the two (or was it three?) decades in which the Riedell lineup was, except for minor tweaks, nearly unchanged:  220, Silver Star, Gold Star, Royal.  While advances in design and materials are good, I hope Jackson stabilizes its line soon ... I hope their product managers aren't taking their cue from cellphone manufacturers (or worse, from fashion designers; though it looks like Edea has had an impact here).

[Sibelius]

Thanks.  That makes more sense now.  Looks like Jackson really didn't think through the original Debut.  It made no sense to me that the new Elle Fusion and new Freestyle Fusion, which are lower models than the Debut, would be made on the more advanced Elite last, while the original Debut [now discontinued] had its own non-Elite last.   Looks like they've fixed that with the Debut Fusion, but haven't updated their website.

Agreed.  We looked at the original Debut before we bought the Elle and it didn't seem to fit into the model progression, much stiffer than advertised and none of her coaches would allow it. I think they are on the right track now.  We have the Debut Fusion Standard, not crazy about the shock absorption on the plastic sole. Next boot will either be the Debut firm or the Premier, but we will opt for the LCL or LCF soles next time.  It's been a great boot for her so far.  Might give that new Legacy blade a try next time too, looks good, light weight and priced really competitively.

[tothepointe]

Yes, the original debut is Elite like but not exactly the same as the elite. I wonder if there was something wrong with the actual last design. Lasts can be very complicated to design and one thing being wrong can throw everything off. I had problems in the end with the heels. They would be locked down there but I couldn't get them all the way down and they would rub in the wrong place and eventually I couldn't do backward crossovers on my left foot.This may have been something peculiar to me I guess we won't know if they have already changed the debut since my pair was one of the first sold.

Changing the models all the times because they could be releasing bad boot designs on a regular basis since changing one thing in such a close fit product can change everything.

I was being tongue in cheek about the Legacy. I guess they realized if they were going to market something as a clone it needed to be more of a clone.

[tereskacz]

The debut has a lot more padding than the freestyle to get a better heel lock but I had issues with it rubbing on my left foot and causing a pump bump. I think however it is a big improvement on the Freestyle which I've been in before.

Thanks a lot for info. And is Debut made on elite last or not?

I cannot make my mind if to choose freestyle or fusion standard. Lokal reseller doesnt have them on stock at all. I asked him what is better or different on debut (in comp.with freestyle) but he said that there is nothing extra. Jackson says in its commercials that debut has much features of 5000 series but not explicite about it.
I tried new Freestyle fusion and I didnt like how stiff the tounge feels. I like the shape /last of freestyle but the comfort is minimal in comp.with Edea or Risport.

So I was hoping that Debut will have better padding and same last as freestyle.

[lutefisk]

Can anyone comment on the "wrap" lacing system which I assume is a Jackson option (scroll down on this link to the debut boot):  http://www.jacksonultima.com/static/images/debut_boot_flyer.pdf

Is this any better than central hooks on the tongue?

[Query]

I have only seen the pictures you just pointed out - but it looks like they are using customized asymmetric lacing techniques to warp a generic boot to fit individual feet.

Note how the boot they show is kind of boxy - not really fit to a particular human foot. So it needs a little help to fit.

That's not to say that the lacing ideas are at all bad: you do want to make boots fit as well as possible. I'm all for experimentation. But maybe it would be even better to make the boot fit the individual 3D shape of the particular skater's foot to begin with - at least for customs.

Just an opinion, not backed by experience with these particular boots or with those lacing ideas.

The one they show first, with only laces straight across, looks fairly unique, and it took me a while to figure out how they did it. I don't know if you can tie that very tight, but it's still cool.

[Bill_S]

One thing that I cannot see from the photos is if the two hooks are actually one piece of metal, joined at the back. That would put the forces into stronger metal, not into the hook/leather joint.

If the hooks are separate left and right pieces sewn separately into the leather, then I'd keep an eye on them. The stresses from lacing will be borne in one direction on each post, not cancelled out like a central hook.

At least the lacing forces are acting in shear, so that's helpful.

[tothepointe]

I think the photo with the straight laces is photoshopped just a tad.

[tothepointe]

The Debuts don't have the wrap system as featured in that flyer. It has some of the features but not the asymmetrical flex notch, cuff wrap and tongue hook

[aussieskater]

I think the photo with the straight laces is photoshopped just a tad.

I actually think all they've done is run the laces up the sides inside for show - so starting from side A hole 1 take the lace to side B hole 1 then up to side B hole 2, then out and back across to side A hole 2 then vertically up to side A hole 3, and so on.

I have to say, while I was absolutely not a fan of the weird shape of the Fusion plastic sole on the original Debut, the Debut with the LCL sole is a pretty boot.  (Always up for a tiny bit of bling!)  It would be on my looking list for sure if Jackon made it semi custom.  Sadly, it comes in only 2 widths, which I believe means they won't do custom widths.

[Sibelius]

I actually think all they've done is run the laces up the sides inside for show - so starting from side A hole 1 take the lace to side B hole 1 then up to side B hole 2, then out and back across to side A hole 2 then vertically up to side A hole 3, and so on.

I have to say, while I was absolutely not a fan of the weird shape of the Fusion plastic sole on the original Debut, the Debut with the LCL sole is a pretty boot.  (Always up for a tiny bit of bling!)  It would be on my looking list for sure if Jackon made it semi custom.  Sadly, it comes in only 2 widths, which I believe means they won't do custom widths.

Actually, that's a little backwards.  The Debut with the Fusion sole is the new Debut, the LCL is the old (original) Debut.  You can order the Debut with any of the Jackson soles though.  For $85 U.S. and a 6 week wait you can get any color Fusion, LCL or LCF sole.  My skaters next boot will be with either the LCL or LCF.  I don't thing the Fusion sole has enough shock absorption for her.  It looks better in person by the way.

[tothepointe]

The fusion sole heel shape seems to be a copy of the Avanta heel but it's more extreme in its shape rather than being a subtle Louis heel style.

[tothepointe]

I should say I was very happy with my Debuts up until the 6month point and they have been the best stock boot I've been in so far. If could have gotten a hybrid of the debut and the Riedell Flair 910 I might have been a happy camper for awhile.

[Loops]

I should say I was very happy with my Debuts up until the 6month point and they have been the best stock boot I've been in so far. If could have gotten a hybrid of the debut and the Riedell Flair 910 I might have been a happy camper for awhile.

How do you find the stiffness of the Debut as compared to the Flair?