Ideas for making home-made boots

[Query]

I have a problem.

My (ill fitting Dance) boots are near the end of their life. They are finally soft enough to do dance, at least for the moment, but if I do even the tiny jumps (like waltz jumps) that I can do, it feels like the boots provide no support at all. I can jump comfortably off ice in bare feet, but on-ice, balanced on a blade, I need support. I think support near the toe would also let me support my weight with a more pointed toe than I can manage bare foot too. In the long term, I will need new boots for both freestyle and dance.

I have a limited budget, so I have to figure out exactly what I need. For example, with my limited flexibility, maybe low heels are better than high heels.

And I don't know how stiff should the boots should be.

So, to experiment, and to determine whether one pair will do for both low level Dance and low level freestyle (with different lace tightnesses), I'm thinking about making my own temporary boots, and possibly the permanent boots too.

I'd appreciate any improvements you folks can suggest to these understandings and procedures:

As near as I can tell, an ideal Dance boot allows full range of motion in the ankle - toe point and flex, sideways bend - with just enough stiffness that one still has good control over the blades. There are no real safety issues, but the long-term boot must not break down too quickly. And most dancers prefer boots that completely fit the foot, and conform to it when the foot bends, with no sliding.

As near as I can tell, most freestylers want the boot to keep their ankle to safe range of motion limits in the sideways direction. I think they vary about what they want in stiffness in the point/flex directions - e.g., some like hinged boots, some don't. It hasn't been possible to make durable freestyle boots that conform to the foot as it bends, yet provide the desired stiffness. I think most freestylers want a boot that does precisely fit the bottom of the foot, and the ankle bone, with no sliding - but above the ankle, the foot slides forward and back as they point and flex the ankle. They then use padding of some sort (e.g., bandages, or gel pads), so the foot doesn't blister where it slides.

(To see why this idea is often used, take your shoes and socks off. Now point and flex the ankle. The bottom of the foot stays together as one piece (at least at skin level), as does the top. More or less the center of the ankle bone stays together with both, as a pivot point. But at ankle height, the skin stretches and scrunches up in places to accommodate the motion. Apparently it is hard for a stiff freestyle boot to emulate that motion and stay skin tight. I think even hinged boots can't - because they would still pinch the skin in places.)

Dancers want a low back for flexibility, and so the back top of the skates don't dig into the Achilles tendon as they point. I think this would make sense for freestylers too, if the boot can still be made stiff enough in the sideways directions - Achilles tendon and nearby bone injuries are somewhat common, according to one medical source, because of excess pressure on the back.

The flexibility (Dance) and safe range of motion (Freestyle) goals seem incompatible, though people sometimes make do with intermediate stiffness boots by using tighter lacing for freestyle.

My construction idea is to wear socks, and wrap duct tape around them, to get a perfect fit. Alternate direction diagonal wraps, kind of like wrapping an ankle to re-enforce it, for directional strength.

I want to get my feet in and out without destroying the boots. So, I guess the socks should be a little large, so I can stretch the front into a folded shape, much like a tennis shoe. Once the wrapping is done, drill holes and put laces through them. Possibly I would need a layer of fiberglass + resin or similar marine material for extra stiffness. I would take the initial boot off before applying a resin, so it doesn't get on the skin - marine resins are toxic when wet. (Even the fumes are bad, so this needs to be in a well ventilated area - a pain in the winter.)

I'm not sure screws would stay mounted in duct tape. I might have to drill holes, and fill them with Shoe Goo, then screw the screws into the Goo, and let dry.

Construction costs may run $5 - $10 / pair of duct tape boots.

It is possible duct tape boots won't be very light or durable.

But if they work well otherwise, I may try making permanent boots out of other tapes, foam and adhesive - i.e., build them a bit like a composite kayak or canoe. Say, an layer inner athletic tape to lock the shape, layers of fiberglass or carbon cloth with epoxy, some type of foam tape (are there any adhesive closed cell foams?) to serve as a lightweight core, and more epoxied cloth.

Unlike leather, tape and adhesive won't breath. So I need a relatively thick sock as a liner, which can.

For the final boots, I like the idea of pile socks, like they use skiing. Nice and soft - but since they are bound by adhesive and thread, they hopefully won't roll and slide around.

The socks will absorb sweat, and therefore would stink to high heaven after a few days. So the inner sock liner must be washable, with a sponge, without the inner athletic tape layers coming off. I envision applying the athletic tape to set the shape and size, removing the boots, then using a sewing awl to sew the tape in place, though I am worried the stitches would dig into my foot.

Anyone have ideas about how to improve on this?

[FigureSpins]

Personally, I don't think it's worth that much time, money or effort to DIY/salvage beat-up skates.  The sock idea literally stinks, imo.  (pun intended )  I'd buy used skates and blades instead of that avenue, definitely, if budget was an issue.

Why don't you have the skates rebuilt if you're that committed to keeping them in use? 
You'll spend just as much on duct tape and epoxy as getting it done properly. 

http://pro-skate.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=66#rebuilding
http://www.icehousesports.com/services.htm
http://www.skatersedgeshop.com/goldservice.php
http://www.ice-sk8.com/aboutus.php

In the meantime, try putting a layer of duct tape over the ankles of your boots after you tie them.
It'll add some support, definitely enough for dance.

[Query]

I like your links on rebuilding boots. In my case, though, Klingbeil made, them, and might be able to rebuild them.

I'm talking about making new skates, not salvaging old ones.

But partly because I'm not sure what I need. I know I made the wrong decisions buying these boots. Initially way too stiff, heel way too high, fit awful beyond words. The fit is no longer a problem - partly because they are too broken down for it to matter, partly because I used a combination of mechanical, thermal and chemical means, along with tape, to alter the fit. The modifications I eventually made went somewhat beyond what professional boot technicians do, yet were insufficient. You can only stretch leather so far, and, in addition to various fixable problems, these were much too small at the big toes and ankle bones, and somewhat too small around the top of the foot.

Klingbeil is hesitant to commit to rebuilding in any event - because skates are about 12 years old, and they worry the leather would fall apart at the seams. My guess is that once they saw them they would say yes, because they aren't that broken down up where the sewn seams are. Their price - $85 + shipping - is quite reasonable, but that won't change the fit issue, as they made sure I understood over the phone. If I had known Klingbeil would freely replace ill fitting custom boots if you go to them soon enough, I would have done that - but my boot fitter hid that from me, perhaps because he was unwilling to admit that anything was wrong. When I went to Klingbeil in person after they were 6 years old, they rebuilt them then, but that didn't improve the fit.

Rebuilding them to be stiff again, when they don't fit, would just create years of pain again.

Questions like heel height and required stiffness are very hard to figure out without trial. Buying a new pair of boots won't solve that - I'd need to buy many pair. Duct tape trial boots seems logical, cheap and reasonable, as a way of figuring this out.

And to be frank, the idea of duct tape boots has a certain perverse appeal!

I've heard of judges rejecting skaters who re-enforced boots with duct tape (not sure why). I wonder if a boot made of duct tape would be viewed the same way as one re-enforced with it. One could hide the grey duct tape under black tape, paint, polish, and covers though that would eliminate the special appeal. Anyway, I have no immediate test or competition intentions.

I'm not sure about the permanent boots - I love the idea that boots formed around the foot would fit exactly, but it might be too hard to make them. But I want to understand composite construction better, for kayak building purposes, and this is a smaller scale project.

I'm not sure the stink problem would be worse than occurs in other boots. Would a pile sock absorb more sweat than leather or Cambrille?

[icefrog]

I know you said you have a limited budget so I am not sure if this would work because it is almost $300. The Riedell 910LS is supposed to be good for dance. If you went to a good pro shop if would have a better fit. It is techically a freestyle boot so it would have the lower heel with the added bonus of a lower back that look nicely padded. You can even include the Onyx blade for an extra $20.

But I second the duct tape trick. It really does work and you can buy every color under the sun in duct tape so if you get black judges won't know. And they should "judge" someone for not having the money to get new boots or maybe they were just back ordered. Anyway with the tape you can play with the stiffness. I used less tape for dance and more tape for freestyle. I even started the tape under the top hook because I thought it was too stiff when I taped all the way to the top. That might be a better option, but I don't know anything about the condition of your boots.

[Query]

In other words, now that they are broken down enough to sort of conform to the foot, if I wrap duct tape around them, they will keep that fit, yet be stiff enough to do freestyle...

Interesting idea.

The tape wraps all the way round the skate, right? So you wrap and unwrap the tape every time you skate.

I may not be testing and competing, but I plan to take part in a production of a local club. I suppose a duct tape wrap would be distracting. Wonder if boot covers are OK with them.

[icefrog]

The duct tape will go from the ankle bone area up to the top hooks if you choose. I went up to right under the top hooks. I had all different colored tape and when I used white it blended in with the skate. I tested and competed with the tape and no one said anything to me about it. I used white tape and I thought it looked neater since the hooks weren't sticking out under the OTB tights. If you are wearing pants and use black tape it will not be an issue. No one should even notice the tape if it blends in with your skate. Just wrap the tape around a few times and check the stiffness and add more tape or use less tape. It really works, but my skate weren't 12 years old and its not supposed a temporary thing. My skates took a longer time to get in than we thought they would so I used the tape. And yes you need to take the tape off and put it back on everytime you skate. Its a huge pain and you will go through a ton of tape.

[blue111moon]

New custom boots from Klingebeil at $645 - plus tax it comes to $705. ( iknow because I just bought mine to replace my 12-year-old Reidells.)  Since I'm not going to out-grow these boots, I gfigure that if I get 10 years out of the Klingbeils, that comes to $70 a year.  I couldn't rent skates for a year for that. 

Unless you're a skilled shoemaker, I can't see how you'd be able to create your own skates that would offer you the same support that a good pair of name skates would, no matter how much money you spent of duct tape and epoxy and how much time you put into the trial and error.

Not to mention the possibility of injuring yourself in the testing. 

I guess that if it's something you want to play with for the fun of it to see if it's possible to build your own pair of skates from scratch, then fine.  But if the goal is to actually be able to skate more often and more comfortably in order to advance your skill level, I think you'd be better off investing in real skates that actually fit.

[Query]

No doubt any good custom boot maker could make me good boots - if I knew what I needed. I'm not sure exactly what heel height and stiffness would be best for me.

The suggestions people made for using duct tape around my current boots may help me experiment with stiffness. I guess I could then find store-bought boots with the same stiffness and ask Klingbeil to match their stiffness.

Though I'm not sure that the same stiffness would apply to my current boots, which do not slide and which are much too small on top, as it would to the much-looser-above-the-ankle-so-it-can-slide fit that is usually used in freestyle boots.

As for heel height, I guess I could take a prior pair of boots, which are even more broken down and were never stiff, play the duct tape stiffening game, and gradually sand down the heels, adjusting the inclination of the blade mount to match. But the shape of the boot interior may have to change, because feet have different shapes when supporting weight at different inclinations.

The more I think about it, the more I don't understand why most skate boots don't stink more than they do. We only use thin permeable open weave liner socks, and we don't wash the boots. Sweat and oils and dead skin cells should transfer to the boot. They should stink unbearably after just a few days as the microbes move in, and after a few more, all kinds of little crawly creatures should be living in the stuff. Why don't they?

I played with search engines, and find there are a lot of "boot sock liners" available (e.g., some with a liner sock sewed to an outer thicker sock, to prevent slippage), some with anti-odor treatments like "X-Static". They are widely used in hiking and ski boots.

There are also a number of anti-slip coatings for socks - so it would be possible to take the boot sock/liner out and wash it, yet not have the problem with the lower part of the sock slipping against the boot, which has been the traditional reason people claimed wearing two pairs of socks was a bad idea in skates.

Maybe removable sock liners should be used inside all skate boots. Not only would this eliminate the odor, but you could move to thinner socks on children as they grew. Removable sock liners have often been used in speed skates.

Playing with search engines a bit more, I find that tape-wrap-over-sock boots (including duct tape) are not a new idea. Vets often use them for horses and sometimes other animals, after injuries. And people often use tape wrap boots to create a pattern for making leather boots - the sock covered foot becomes the last. A cast is a tape wrap boot too - but less flexible than I desire.

[Sk8tmum]

"The more I think about it, the more I don't understand why most skate boots don't stink more than they do. We only use thin permeable open weave liner socks, and we don't wash the boots. Sweat and oils and dead skin cells should transfer to the boot. They should stink unbearably after just a few days as the microbes move in, and after a few more, all kinds of little crawly creatures should be living in the stuff. Why don't they?"


My son's skates stink even more than his gym shoes - because they last longer and are less breathable than the shoes, and they are leather lined instead of odour-free friendly stuff.

[AgnesNitt]

How to make your own Shoes. Should give you ideas on equipment, techniques etc. For example, how to make your own last.

http://shoes.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=shoes&cdn=style&tm=20&f=20&su=p284.9.336.ip_p504.1.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.marywalesloomis.com/

[katz in boots]

How to make your own Shoes. Should give you ideas on equipment, techniques etc. For example, how to make your own last.

http://shoes.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=shoes&cdn=style&tm=20&f=20&su=p284.9.336.ip_p504.1.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.marywalesloomis.com/

Yes, I saw this too when I went looking.  Some great ideas, am considering buying her book, though not going to try to make skating boots...
but I also came across this site, which has some interesting shoe making/repairing materials
http://www.warkov.com/catalog/index.php?osCsid=c3f1fb09354932cc384523ff22cef305

[blue111moon]

You don't have to know what stiffness you need.  A good fitter (and Don Klingbeil is one of the best) will ask questions and make suggestions based on your size, skill level and how much skating you do and build boots to match.  I just went through all this with Don a couple months ago and while I did have my coach come along to offer advice and opinions, most of the input came from Don.  I have no idea what "model" or "style" of boot I ended up with since they're not a stock boot - they're custom made for me, my feet and my abilities.  It's well worth the expense of the travel down to NY to see Don in person.  In fact, I'm making a trip this weekend to have him make a couple more tiny adjustments, now that I've been skating in them for a month or so.  He couldn't be nicer about doing it, too.  After all, it's in his best interests to have me be happy with the boots.

The only skaters I know who use duct tape are high level (read that as triple-jumpers) guys who are trying to eke a few more weeks out of a pair of worn-out boots until new ones come in, or who are paranoid about having laces come untied or the hooks pop out while they skate.  Then they lace up the boots, wrap black tape - a couple use the electrical gaffer's tape - around the ankle area and then skate.  When they're finished skating they cut the tape off and throw it away.  It's not a permanent solutions to adjusting the fit inside the boot.

I guess I just don't understand why , other than saving money, you want to build your own boots.  You don't have to build your own car to drive one.  You don't have to know how to build a computer to get on the Internet.  What's next - forging your own blades?

[fsk8r]

I guess I just don't understand why , other than saving money, you want to build your own boots.  You don't have to build your own car to drive one.  You don't have to know how to build a computer to get on the Internet.  What's next - forging your own blades?

But people do build their own cars and people do build their own computers. Most of us might not want to do these things, but there's no reason why people can't work out how to build their own boots. You never know, Query might be about to become the next Don Kleinbeil.

[Query]

Becoming the next Klingbeil, or S.P. Teri, or whomever would be rather ambitious.

I can perhaps dream of selling a kit or instructions. But even that would have to be a long time in the future.

---

Thanks for the links, guys.

I'd already found

  http://www.thehcc.org
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medieval-leather

Such discussion groups are good sources of info on shoe making, but not on ice skates. Like I'm not all that sure that my understanding of how freestyle boots are supposed to fit is right - like does the boot actually have to slide against my upper foot, and how much should it actually limit my range of motion?

---

As for justifying making my own, this is a hobby. I will never be a world class skater. At my age (over 50) I loose more skills than I gain. I can choose to learn other aspects of the hobby.

A good custom boot maker can make "reasonable" guesses based on body type, skill level, and perhaps measured range of motion. But we have very individual levels of strength in the various muscles that control our ankles, and individual patterns and ranges of motion that we have become accustomed to on ice.

Will I be happiest dancing in boots that are as supple as soft leather gloves or in full-on freestyle boots? Can I learn to get by with a lower heel, so I can get more fully onto the toe pick when I jump, and so it takes less muscle to do clean turns and knee bends?  To learn, I must experiment.

I live to far from the closest custom skate factory/store to go through as many modification cycles as some people do. I don't wear out boots fast enough to justify going through enough pairs to get it right. Nor can the boot maker learn enough by asking how my old boots can be improved, because the old ones are too far off. Perhaps they can start with what I make, and make it more durable.

Sharpening my own blades has improved my skating. I try a little of this, then skate, then try a little of that, and skate, and try things most professionals don't.

Possibly making my own boots, even if I might go to a master boot maker for the final pair, might do the same.