Sno-seal or lacquer?

[DressmakingMomma]

Dd's new boots are in (fit is great - Jackson seems to do a really good job with getting the heel narrow enough). In the past, we had a chem-glaze put on by the skate shop. This time I am gong to do it myself and save the money. I can either buy a leather lacquer or sno-seal. I understand the purpose of sealing the soles from the outside is to keep the water out, but what if you have really sweaty feet? At first I was thinking definitely lacquer because it is a sturdy finish, but what I'm wondering is if sno-seal would be a better option if you have sweaty feet. It typically takes a long time to dry her boots out after skating. Does the lacquer trap moisture in the boot and does sno-seal breath a bit better? Anybody have any experience either way?
Thanks, Stacey

[Ethereal Ice]

I have been doing some research about this myself. I am unfamiliar with the lacquer at all but I have researched Sno Seal. To my knowledge Sno seal does not breathe at all, though it does wear away with use. As for the sweating in the boot moisture I think it is easier to address that with dessicant inserts and leaving them open to dry etc.

So, my particular care plan is to replace the Sno seal on the soles if I see evidence of it wearing off. As for routine care, I dry the soles and blade mounts well after skating and apply large fluffy soakers that cover the sole, this allows the water to wick of the soles. I also slide in dessicant inserts (Sink eeze) immediately after I take my boots off to absorb left over sweat. On the ride home I leave my skate bag open so they can breathe a bit. I use a Zuca bag and it is kind of a pain because I basically have to leave the door open most all the time to let my skates breathe. I only zip it shut when I am actually moving the bag. 

When I get home I exchange the fluffy soakers for blade-only soakers so that the mounts and soles are open to air. I remove the dessicant inserts and pull the tongues open wide to allow the skates to breathe. I know it sounds anal retentive but I leave the boots facing soles out for the rest of the day and flip them around before I go to bed so that air gets everywhere. I also keep a dessicant pack in my Zuca bag in the hanging net on top.

It might sound like a lot but it really only takes a minute and is just part of my routine for drying sweaty/wet equipment that for me also includes wrist guards, pads and a Crashe cap. I love my Stink eeze inserts, I got the little fishie ones and they are adorable.

[Query]

BTW, one of the other guys in this forum has successfully used Silicone gasket sealer instead of Sno-Seal. It should last much longer. Sounds like a great idea.

You seal soles so they are less likely to rot. I honestly don't see how to seal the soles against water without losing breathability through the soles.

BTW, Sno-Seal, AFAIK, is merely bee's wax + a solvent whose purpose is to lower the melting point to where it is easier to melt.

Since soles are thick and Sno-Sealed (or equivalent), and boots are also thick, I figure socks are the most obvious route to getting rid of sweat inside of the boot, through evaporation from the part of the sock that is above the boot.

I'm curious what sort of socks you wear, and what thickness. Some sock materials (like polypropylene) wick moisture away, some don't. Some, like cotton, are hydrophilic (attract and absorb water), and will become soaking wet, which you probably don't want.

Sockless feet, especially if they are sweaty, may reduce boot lifetime, because water is bad for leather. They may certainly cause the boots to stink. I suggest wicking socks are a good thing, for you.

Another possibility would be to use an open cell foam on top of your insole, or in place of your insole. Your feet will be a little cooler, and the foam will temporarily absorb some of the moisture, while you skate. You could try open cell foam carpet padding material. But - CLOSED cell carpet padding material would have the opposite effect from what you want. (That's what I do - my feet get cold instead of sweaty.) If you look at shoe insoles that are designed to be cool vs warm, you will note that they tend to use open vs closed cell foam materials.

I don't know how desiccant vs open cell foam materials stack up against each other...

Also - you may want to avoid using boot covers, or using tights that cover part of your boots. Either would block some evaporation from the leather.

Hope that helps.

[Ethereal Ice]

I don't know how desiccant vs open cell foam materials stack up against each other...

Well, in your scenario it sounds like you would use the open cell foam while you skate to absorb sweat (if I understand correctly), you don't use the dessicant while you are skating, so you could technically use both...just slide the dessicant inserts in afterwards to absorb up any remaining sweat. In doing some research about Jackson skates for a friend, I had noted some posts on skate forums from a few years ago indicating that Jackson skates use non breathable material between the sole and bottom of the boot making them less breathable overall than many other boot types. Whether this is true still, or even true at all, I am not sure but it may account for some of the difficulties with certain sweaty/smelly boots. I have Reidells and my skate care routine is basically preventative, I have never had an issue with smelly boots, but my feet do sweat some in them and I cannot use socks thick enough to significantly catch all of it, so in go my Stink eeze fishies after I skate.

[tstop4me]

With respect to your specific issue, drying the interior of the boot from moisture caused by sweaty feet, I don't think that the type of sealant applied to the exterior surface of the outsole has any effect. 

Consider the following "regions" of the boot:

(a) Air inside of the boot
(b) Removable insole (also referred to by Jackson in their advanced models as a "footbed")
(c) Fixed insole
(d) Midsole
(e) Outsole
(f) Sealant applied to exterior surface of outsole
(g) Air outside of boot.

The above is a simplification:  for example, there will be a region of air between the removable insole and the fixed insole, and layers of adhesive between between the various portions of the sole.

So, you are concerned about moisture (either liquid or vapor), originally from sweaty feet, that resides inside the boot after you have finished skating.  Your concern is the moisture migrating through the removable insole, through the fixed insole, through the midsole, through the outsole, and then being trapped by the sealant and not escaping into the air outside of the boot.  I don't have any data, but unless the interior of the boot is immersed in sweat, I don't see that as a major path for transport of the moisture.  Most likely, the moisture will be trapped by the removable insole and fixed insole and evaporate into the air inside the boot, which should be kept in an open environment to ventilate.  If feasible, you should remove the removable insole after skating to speed up drying of the interior of the boot.  That isn't always practical:  I have Jackson men's Elite Suede.  There are exposed staples on the top of the fixed insole that tend to snag the removable footbed if you take it in and out frequently.  Also, I have replaced the stock footbed with a custom home-made orthotic, which fits snugly and is difficult to remove.  So I leave it in place.

[tstop4me]

BTW, one of the other guys in this forum has successfully used Silicone gasket sealer instead of Sno-Seal. It should last much longer. Sounds like a great idea.

If you're referring to Bill_S, he uses silicone gasket sealer in addition to Sno-Seal, not in place of Sno-Seal.  See http://www.afterness.com/skating/mounting_blades.html.

[sampaguita]

My boots have lacquer and silicone gasket sealer. I used to have mine treated with Sno-seal until I got tired of applying Sno-seal over and over and over again. I say the price of lacquer+silicone waterproofing is worth it.

[DressmakingMomma]

I knew I would get great answers from you guys - thank you!

So it sounds like the sealant on the heel probably won't affect the breathability of the boot and sweaty feet. I'm going to use the lacquer then, since we have had good luck with that in the past. Our skate tech uses silicone between the blade plates and boots to seal out water in that area once he does the final mount.

As for the sweaty feet, dd skates in Mondor's knee-high skating socks or cutoff knee highs we make from her worn out skating tights. She actually prefers barefoot but thin socks are a compromise to keep her boots a little less stinky. She has cork wedges, gel arch supports and then a thin, cheap drugstore insole that we replace frequently. I use the balls meant to go into tennis shoes for absorption of moisture and smell between skating sessions - I'll have to look into the stinkeeze brand since they are bigger - maybe they will help absorb more moisture then what we are currently using. DD sometimes uses a foot powder on her feet before skating and that seems to help - but I worry about the chemicals used in those powders and don't like her to do that everyday.

[DressmakingMomma]

Ooh, I just had a thought. Wool has great absorbing powers, I wonder about using a thin wool insole as our top layer. We have tried leather in the past, but it is too slippery for an insole and that is when we started using the cheap drugstore kind. Because we build up support for her using other materials under her insoles, I want something thin as the top layer. The wool would wick away the sweat while she is skating, and then we can take them out in-between sessions to dry.

[beginner skater]

Thoughts on the stinky feet:
Cotton socks would make a big difference to the smell. I nearly reeled backwards when one of my friends took off her skates, revealing nylon popsocks.

Wool insoles might help, but what about sheepskin insoles? They really dont smell, I use them in my wellies. I would bed them into her foot shape first by wearing them in other footwear, they flatten down a lot, and are very longlasting. I'm thinking now I might give these a go myself to help my skate footbed conform to the shape of my feet

[amy1984]

but I worry about the chemicals used in those powders and don't like her to do that everyday.

Are you talking about something like Gold Bond? A couple of my friends use baby powder to help with this instead of specific foot powder.  It's got Talc in in which isn't great for you but maybe something to try if you're not a fan of the medicated stuff.

[Query]

If you're referring to Bill_S, he uses silicone gasket sealer in addition to Sno-Seal, not in place of Sno-Seal.

Oops!

With regards to sweaty feet:

I assumed your sweaty feet also get warm inside the boot. If, when you skate, your feet or toes feel cold, you probably don't want to do anything to cool them down further.

If you are using those Jackson boots that have wonderfully comfortable looking plush liner material, they are probably fairly warm - which would make your feet sweat more. Too late to do anything about that.

if you stop to rest for a few minutes, you could also take your boots and socks off for that time.

You could also wear sandals before and after skating, to help keep your feet dry. I took a class once from a certified physical trainer, who said that wearing such shoes when not doing athletic things is a great idea for athletes in general, because they tend to have foot health problems related to too much moisture inside their shoes - e.g., fungus (like Athlete,s foot, some viruses). (Needless to say, some weather is too cold for that.)

[Bill_S]

FWIW, my skates are my laboratory. I've found that using Sno-Seal first reduces adhesion of the silicone sealant on top. The fillet of silicone at the edges has lifted a bit.

I shouldn't have been surprised by that. It's still solid underneath because it's clamped in place by the mounted plate, and that's still a benefit.

For my next skates, I'll probably experiment with oil-based polyurethane. Leather is porous to some extent, and a poly solution should penetrate into the leather, then cure hard, sealing the surface. It's a finish of choice for wood finishes that must withstand water and wear like tabletops.

Back on topic, I doubt that there would be any measurable difference between bare leather on the bottom and a treated/coated leather sole for reducing moisture from sweaty feet. The leather sole is simply too thick to breath well in the time frame of a skating session, so that alone would be the prime determinant. If you add things like polymer insoles and steel blade plates that occupy most of the sole area, then I feel safe to say that "breathing" has to happen elsewhere.

[Query]

Thanks, Bill_S. So did you try Silicone without Sno-Seal, and would you recommend that?

If so, perhaps you could update http://www.afterness.com/skating/mounting_blades.html

[Bill_S]

I haven't done anything new since I wrote that page for my skates when they were new (2007). They still have a lot of life left, especially because I don't skate 12 hours per week anymore. I'm lucky if I log 4 hours per week on ice. I'll update it if I get new skates and try new things, but I'm currently not in the market for them.

I would still want a protective coating on the exposed leather sole to keep water from soaking in, and that's why I mentioned a polyurethane finish. If I didn't consider using that (untried) method, I'd definitely use Sno-Seal again regardless of the little fillet around the plate that unsticks. The majority of the cured silicone "gasket" is clamped firmly between sole and plate. It's still doing its job and it is not going anywhere. Since I started using the silicone method back in 2001 or so, I've never had a screw failure because of leather decay.

BTW, the university web server that hosts my personal skating and classroom-related pages is being decommissioned next summer. Apparently not enough staff were using it. I'm looking around at various hosting services to see if I can save the content.

[sampaguita]

For sweaty feet, I use foot powder. Works wonders!