Do suede boots develop creases?

[tstop4me]

This is a spin-off from another thread.  Another poster here and I have both worn Jackson Elite Suede (men's) boots.  We have had different experiences, his negative and mine positive.  One item we both noted was that the boots did not develop creases.  I'd like to pursue this issue.  I'd like to hear from skaters (men or women) with suede boots.

(1) What make and model do you have?

(2) Do they have ankle notches?

(3) Did they develop creases in the ankle region as in smooth leather boots?

Thanks.

[sarahspins]

None of my jacksons ever developed deep creases.  Some minor wrinkling right near the flex notches, but never a crease.  One pair was completely broken down after 2 years of wear (had had no lateral support), the other was close.

Neither pair of mine (women's) were suede. 

[nicklaszlo]

My men's Jackson Elite Suede boots got very clear creases. 

My Jackson Freestyles did too.

My Risport RF2s do not have creases yet.  They are only seven months old.

These all have notches.

I think it depends on how much one bends one's ankles.

[Doubletoe]

Why would suede behave any differently from other leather in terms of creasing?  The only difference is the finish of the outermost layer of leather. 

[tstop4me]

Why would suede behave any differently from other leather in terms of creasing?  The only difference is the finish of the outermost layer of leather.

I previously wore the older generation (pre-early-2000's) of Riedell boots (220, Gold Star, Royal).  These were all smooth leather, with no ankle notches.  They all developed creases in the course of normal break-in (first several sessions), and the creases became more pronounced as the boot wore in and eventually broke down.  The Elite Suede is my first pair of Jacksons, my first pair of suedes, and my first pair with ankle notches.  I've been skating on them for almost a year and a half now; no creases at all.  It's a pleasant surprise, so I'm wondering why.  The ankle notch relieves local stress and probably helps reduce creasing.  But I'm also curious about any differences in the leather.

There are several differences between smooth leather and suede leather (e.g., high-grade smooth leather comes from the top grain of the hide; suede leather comes from the bottom of the hide), but the difference in surface finish is the most pronounced.  And this difference in surface finish may make a difference in mechanical properties.  For example, if you scrape your fingernails across smooth leather, you will likely leave scratches; but, if you scrape your fingernails across suede leather, you won't.  So I was wondering whether the coarser, less dense, grain and napped surface of suede leather made suede leather less prone to creasing; or whether my experience, and that reported by another poster, are anomalies.

[amy1984]

Another good thing to consider would be the fitting and level of boots.  They may crease because of the fit on your foot or also because you're breaking them down quickly.  I've seen adults crease boots quite a bit and my theory (just my own thoughts) is probably that, say, a Jackson Freestyle, that's really meant for an average skater working on single jumps, may break down quick.  Why?  Because the average person learning these skills that the boot was designed for is probably half the size of an adult man.  Even as a woman, I was in a boot more suited to my 'level' (I think it was either a freestyle or a premier) and it broke down insanely fast.  Moved into an Elite 4200 and I haven't had any problems.  If you have a flex notch, a good fitting, and are properly booted in terms of not only skill but size/weight, I don't see why they'd crease on you.  If someone was having issues with this I'd look at going up a level in stiffness and also checking the fit when you replaced them.

[Query]

I don't know.

But if suede is uncoated (smooth leather skates are generally covered with a plastic seam seal of some type), water may get into it, which wouldn't help. Could that be your issue?

My newest boots are suede - but they are designed for triple and quad jumps, against my half-rotation jumps and ice dance. I think they will never, ever break down.

(But I work very hard to make boots fit my feet. For the most part, if boots fit very well against your feet, there is no room inside the boot to create a crease, until the leather gets really, really soft. But I think that is independent of outer finish.)

The biggest difference with suede boots, for me, is that the side of the boot (used in lunges and deep ice dance style underpushes) won't slide well on the ice, without a boot cover that covers EVERYTHING. I don't like suede. But I don't think that would affect break down either.

[tstop4me]

But if suede is uncoated (smooth leather skates are generally covered with a plastic seam seal of some type), water may get into it, which wouldn't help. Could that be your issue?

Not sure what your point here is.  If there were water damage, I would expect that to increase the chances of creases.  But as I said, all my older generation Riedell smooth leather boots [including the Royals, which at the time were the top-of-the-line Riedells] formed creases within several sessions (and, from discussions with skate techs, coaches, and other skaters, this was fairly typical behavior); whereas, my Jackson Elite Suedes show no signs of creases at all after ~1-1/2 yrs (~7-1/2 hrs skating/wk).

Regardless, water damage is not a factor here.  I treat the boots with silicone protectant every 3 mos and dry them off thoroughly after each session.

[Query]

my older generation Riedell smooth leather boots [including the Royals, which at the time were the top-of-the-line Riedells] formed creases within several sessions (and, from discussions with skate techs, coaches, and other skaters, this was fairly typical behavior)

I'm very puzzled by that statement. Unless there was something special about those boots, or they fit very badly, or weren't tied tight, that shouldn't have happened. I'm not basing this statement just on my own experience - I've also had a lot of discussions about boots with several very top-end skate techs. I've also watched what happens to rental boots at the rink where I've worked.

What breaking in should do is allow the layers of leather fiber to slide against each other at the points of the bend, by tearing the substances that connect them. But that doesn't mean you have to develop a visible crease.

Even relatively low level rental boots won't develop a perceptible crease for most people within a few sessions, unless the boots don't correctly fit the foot, or they are worn too loose. That's because a concave break-down crease can only develop if there is an empty space inside the boot for the leather to bend in a concave manner. Of course given time - a fair number of years, and hundreds to thousands of hours - a crease can still form  - when leather bends, even if the leather is well supported by pressure from the foot on the inside of the boot, the outside of the boot will bend concave while the inside of the boot bends convexly. The leather can break in - become soft at the points of the bend - much more quickly.

OTOH, if the boots don't fit, e.g., they are too large, are of a shape much different from the foot, or are not tied tight, boots will develop a crease very quickly. Under those conditions 1 session can actually break down many rental boots. It's easy to see why - if there is empty space next to the foot just below the ankle, the leather will be forced to bend concavely (inwards) there.

I have creased and broken down one specific type of boot that quickly. Out of curiosity, I bought well-used boots of very thin (1/20 inch?), supple (soft as a glove) leather. At one point, fairly long ago, they used to make many boots, almost knee-high, that way. The boots were well used, but no crease had developed. I tied them very tight, which forced them to fit well against my feet, but they still broke down in one session.

My first boots were somewhat used smooth leather Riedell 220s (fairly low level boots), of a fairly old generation, which at the that time were single-layer leather, about 1/8" thick. They didn't fit all that tightly - I didn't realize they should, though they were supple enough to conform to my feet, and happened to otherwise match fairly well the shape of my feet. I regularly oiled the leather on the inside, which lubricates the layers of leather that need to slide against each other when the leather bends (not practical to do on many high level boots). They broke down in maybe 1.5 years - maybe 250 - 500 hours on the ice. They creased within about 1/3 of that. Certainly not within a few sessions. At that point, Don Giese, a very well respected skate technician, reinforced the boots, and effectively made them smaller, by gluing a carefully shaped layer of leather inside the boots, something he had done for other people's figure, hockey and speed boots. That worked for maybe 3 - 6 months (?), but the boots were really already broken down.

My next boots, custom (but not well fit originally, by a skate tech I would never use again) very well made Klingbeil "soft" smooth leather Dance boots, didn't start to break down and develop a crease for about 9 or 10 years. At 10-20 hours/week, they broke down in very approximately 4500 - 10000 hours on the ice. That's NOT typical - I worked very hard to improve the fit, and I barely jumped at all, and Klingbeils were well known for durability. They didn't even break in for more than the first 6 years of that - and only after I deliberately forced them to break in by a combination of chemical, thermal and physical means. The reinforcing foam between the inside and outside leather layers had crushed down - but Klingbeil rebuilt them for me at the 6 year point (2500 - 5000 years on the ice), by replacing the foam. But the leather was still too stiff for me. (I was taught that good ice dance boots should bend perceptively sideways, to the limit of your range of motion, because you use sideways bends to create deeper edges. In contrast, freestyle boots should hardly bend sideways at all, to better protect your ankles.) I continued to use them for almost two years, though they no longer supported my ankles much, and I probably shouldn't have.

Mike Cunningham, one of the world's best skate technicians, told me that even the world's highest level freestyle skaters, doing triples and quads, typically take about a year or so to break down their skates, if they are fit correctly, though there is a fairly high degree of variation in that.

I don't think they should start to create a visible breakdown crease in much less than that - maybe 1/3 to 2/3 of the way through the boot's practical lifetime.

[JSM]

All leather boots have the potential to crease.  But, yeah, if someone is a typical mid-level freestyle skater, and the boot creases after just a few sessions, I'd bet on either an improper fit (probably too big, I see this a lot), or the skater has been underbooted.

[Nate]

Jackson Elite suede never creased for me.

Coach here with suede elite supreme boots has no creases. I actually asked him about it yesterday. He got up and bent his knee. No crease whatsoever (or even a hint of one).

There are ankle notches and a backseat hole to stabilize the heel there. But there is no way mine would crease unless it was ready to replace them.


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[Ethereal Ice]

I previously wore the older generation (pre-early-2000's) of Riedell boots (220, Gold Star, Royal).  These were all smooth leather, with no ankle notches.  They all developed creases in the course of normal break-in (first several sessions), and the creases became more pronounced as the boot wore in and eventually broke down. 

I skate in an older model Riedell, and this is exactly what started to happen with my boots. I have Silver Star 355s with no flex notch. I bought them pre owned but they were not pre worn, there was no evidence anyone else had ever skated in them. I am a low level skater and these are my first "real" skates. During the break in process I focused heavily on bending my knees deeply, I tried to leave the top laces undone at first to allow the break in to go smoother but they never felt right that way. After about 10 hours of skating they felt really good around my foot, I describe them as an extension of my foot, very comfy but snug. But the ankles/top of the boot area still felt kind of odd, no matter how tightly I laced them I felt like I had a lot of movement there.

After about 20 hours of skating I started to notice creasing extending from where a flex notch would be, all the way to my ankle. It was present on both boots and worse on the right probably due to the ccw skating that I primarily did. One of my new skate friends took a look and could not tell if it was normal break in due to bending my knees or if it was an early break down problem. I watched it closely over the next couple of weeks and realized it was getting worse and worse, I was quite freaked out.

Thank goodness for the skate forum! I did a search on older Silver Stars and creasing and found that I was not the only one. I then did Google searches on creasing prevention and found a great deal of info on preventing it, on Edeas in particular. The major question was, how to make it stop or slow down? The general consensus was that this particular group of Riedell boots just fit poorly on the top for many people, I was so in love with the boots otherwise, I felt they fit my actual foot just better and better every time I wore them.

As I have mentioned in some other threads, I was actually able to solve the problem easily by switching my lacing technique, adding Bunga pads to my ankles/lower leg, and even buying new laces helped. Basically just making my ankle larger and stickier to get the boot to fit more snugly and the lacing evened out my pressure along the lace line. After I switched my lacing and added the pads I noticed the creasing not only stopped getting worse, it actually seemed to reverse a little over the next few skates, it is now barely noticeable and I have about 150 hours on them.

It still seems crazy to me that such small changes could make that much of a difference in my boots, but if one considers that Edea actually claims that if you lace their boots incorrectly, they will break down rapidly, it is not so far fetched that that switching up the technique could save my boots. I am extremely careful with my boots as far as temperature and moisture go, they are nearly always kept at room temperature and open to air. They are never left in a hot or cold car. The leather is persnickity, if they get too cold, they get stiff and the fit is affected.

That said, and after that early tweaking, I adore them, they feel as though they were made just for me.

[nicklaszlo]

He got up and bent his knee. No crease whatsoever (or even a hint of one).

Nate, the reason people are concerned about creases is that creased boots are broken boots.  Obviously the boots your coach was wearing were not creased.  Check with him again when you see him in new boots. 

[Nate]

Nate, the reason people are concerned about creases is that creased boots are broken boots.  Obviously the boots your coach was wearing were not creased.  Check with him again when you see him in new boots.

Huh?

Thread is "do they develop creases." My response was, basically, not in my experience for me (or the people I know with them), unless they're ready to be replaced. Certainly not deep creases.

Broken down skates will crease - leather and suede.

In hindsight, I'm probably that other skater being referred to, lol. So, my reply is likely redundant

This thread is soliciting info (others' experiences) after I posted about Jackson Elite Suede boots never creasing in a different thread. The boots were so stiff that the only way to get any knee bend was to lace too loosely. The result of that was heel bursitis and plantar fasciitis in both feet.

I ended up having to just move out of the boot after 4 months.