Do I need to make arch supports?

[beginner skater]

During one of my LTS classes, the coach said I needed to press with the middle of my foot. Which made me realise that I can only press with my toes, ball or heel. I cant feel the middle of my foot on the bottom of my skates. I have Jackson Artistes, and reasonably  normal feet. I have got arches but not particularly high, and they've never given me an issue. From the running point of view I have neutral feet.

Should I be able to weight my skates with my arches?

Looking on line all the arch supports seem to be for shock absorbing, and usually made of gel, which I'm guessing is not going to allow precise transfer of weight.
I did try putting my trainer insoles in, as they have a bit of an arch,  but there wasnt room for my foot as well. the standard Jackson insoles are just flat foam.

Should I be layering craft foam under my arches to fill the gap between the arch and the bottom of the boot? Thanks

[riley876]

I'd suggest trying cork.  Cork insoles shouldn't be hard to find, and are easy to modify/laminate.  Cork floor tiles are good too, but probably too thick, unless you've got access to a belt sander to strategically thin them out.

For just trying stuff out, folded up newspaper is quick easy and free.

Craft foam would be too squidgy for my tastes.

While you're on the case, you might want to look closely at you foot/ankle geometry,  i.e. in particular rearfoot valgus/varus and forefoot valgus/varus.  Your high arch might be a compensation for a foot that really doesn't want to be forced onto a flat surface.

Rearfoot VL/VG:

[icepixie]

I've cut up cheap drug store insoles (like these) to make an arch shape and used double-sided tape to put them on top of the insole that came with my skates.  I do two layers, the one on the bottom slightly bigger than the one on top to mimic the slope down toward the outside of the foot.  If I need an extra layer but not quite so thick as another piece of insole, I add a layer or two of moleskin on top.  It works reasonably well, is cheap, and allows me to feel the bottom of my skate (well, the foam) under the middle of my foot.  I actually like that it's squashy; it mimics the insoles I use in my shoes, and allows some give as needed without leaving me with no support at all.

[Query]

You don't need to make them. A good PT or Podiatrist can do it for you - for a fee. Though not all of them understand skates.

For make-your-own (which let's you experiment), I used to use athletic tape on the bottom of my insoles. Adhesive foam, like moleskin, lets you make bigger changes faster.

But now I take carpet foam, and shape it 3 dimension-ally with scissors, after figuring out with tape what shape I need. A bit of a learning curve, but I love the result. You can get an absolutely perfect fit that way, with practice. They are much warmer than standard insoles, because I used a closed-cell carpet foam, which might or might not be a good idea for you, depending on whether you get cold feet, or warm sweaty feet, for which an open cell foam might be better.

And yes, you should have the contact to be able to control your skates with all parts of your feet - except you probably don't want to squish the sides or front of your toes, because that can lead to health problems. You also probably need some space in front of and behind your feet just above the ankles, so you can point and flex your feet.

BTW, it is possible that if your boots, or other shoes, don't support the middle of your feet, your feet may eventually start to hurt, because they make your feet collapse too much. And various muscles may start to hurt, because you use muscles to compensate for insufficient support. I had that issue once.

[beginner skater]

I have bought some craft foam as it is very cheap. Much cheaper than insoles, cork or otherwise. Newspaper is cheap, but a bit like gold dust. Personally I hoard some in the garage in case I ever have a litter of puppies. 

Also because it will compress, I think I might not have to bother with tapering the edge. There's not a lot of room in my boots, certainly not enough to accommodate one of my trainer insoles which has more of an arch than the Jackson ones. So far, I have cut out 2 mid insole sections for each skate, joined them with doublesided tape and will try them out next week. I suspect I will need several more layers to fill out the gap, but think I need my body weight to start shaping and compressing them first. I have located moleskin on amazon, just in case

I'm too mean to pay for a podiatrist in the first instance. I did find some arch supports on amazon, and when I have a better idea of what shape and thickness my skates will allow, and if I can still skate, I might get some. I would say I have normal arches, it's the skates which are flat-footed. 

Ice pixie, I would be interested in seeing your diy supports?

Riley, I have glanced backwards at my ankles, and they seem stuck on reasonably straight

[icepixie]

Ice pixie, I would be interested in seeing your diy supports?

Sure.  I was hesitant to take it out and photograph it to show the layers well because I wasn't sure I'd be able to get it back in the same spot, but hopefully this gives you the idea.

[beginner skater]

Neat job! Thanks, it's a lot more 3 dimensional than I was imagining. Did it take a lot of fiddling around to get right?

[icepixie]

It took a fair amount of fiddling, yes.  I made them too high at first and had to take off a couple of layers of insole, then they were too low and I added the moleskin, then I had to cut down the length slightly and adjust how high up the side I taped it...  I've probably totaled 2.5 or 3 hours making the initial inserts and then adjusting them.  The sucky part of the adjustment period is having to either spend part of my ice time cutting down/adding to them at rinkside or living with the pain of not having them quite right until the session's over.  But that didn't happen too often, only once or twice.

[beginner skater]

Thanks ice pixie, that will comfort  me as I try and get mine right. I suppose a podiatrist might     shorten the process, but it would still be a bit of a procedure.

How long have you been using them, and have you had to make replacements?

Have you got them just to fill your boots, so to speak? 

[icepixie]

I put these in less than a week after I got these skates.  (I'd had to do the same thing to my first pair, not to mention all of my street shoes, and was expecting this.)  I haven't yet found that I need to make replacements, but I suppose I might in the future if these compress.  So far so good, though; it's been 18 months with no need to replace them.

[tstop4me]

Here are some additional options.

(1)  I use Pedag arch supports.  They are available from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Pedag-Symmetrical-Adhesive-Support-Medium/dp/B001E6OS9S?ie=UTF8&keywords=pedag%20step&qid=1465347217&ref_=sr_1_1_a_it&sr=8-1

Here's my Amazon review:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/review/RQ92J064WOB18?ref_=glimp_1rv_cl

They come in a variety of sizes.  These fit along the longitudinal arch only and do not interfere with the fit in the toe box and heel region.  They are made of rubber and covered with leather.  They have the right degree of firmness and resilence and are very durable.  You want something that holds up, otherwise your skating control will vary as the support breaks down.

(2)  The Pedag arch supports come with double-sided sticky tape, which peels off easily.  I strip it off and attach the arch support to the top of the insole with Velcro tape, also available from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BQQM0U/ref=twister_B01F4WFW60?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

They come in different colors and lengths.

Velcro tape comes in two mating sections:  a rough, hard, bristly section and a soft, cushy section.  Line the bottom of the arch supports with the hard section.  Line a portion (or all, if you have room) of the top of the insole with the soft section.  You can then position the arch support wherever you want.  If you need to reposition it, you can pull it off and then press it back in.  Less messy than double-sided tape.

(3)  If you find the leather surface too slippery (depends on what you wear on your feet and how sweaty you get), you can cover it with moleskin or the soft section of Velcro.  The Velcro is thicker, more cushy, and more durable than moleskin.  If there's enough room, I recommend it.  If you need the thinner moleskin, here's a much cheaper alternative to the small expensive Dr. Scholl's pieces you find at most retail stores; also available from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Curad-NON5148H-Moleskin-Roll-Latex/dp/B00OMFZCRU?ie=UTF8&keywords=curad%20moleskin&qid=1465348171&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

If you're allergic to latex, there's a latex-free version as well:

http://www.amazon.com/Curad-Moleskin-Roll-Yards-Latex/dp/B00MTEND6S?ie=UTF8&keywords=curad%20moleskin&qid=1465348171&ref_=sr_1_2_a_it&sr=8-2

These are supplied as a 9 inch X 4 yd roll.  For ~$16, it's a real bargain compared to Dr. Scholl's.

(4) If you need to increase the height of the Pedag arch supports, you can make a spacer by taping a hard section of Velcro to a soft section of Velcro back-to-back.  You then insert the spacer between the bottom of the arch support (lined with a hard section of Velcro) and the top of the insole (lined with a soft section of Velcro).  You can use multiple spacers on top of each other if needed.

(5) If you need to decrease the height of the Pedag arch supports, you'll need to file or shave some rubber off the bottom.  I haven't had to do this.

(6) Note:  I skate in Jackson Elite Suede boots.  They were supplied with the Elite footbed (insole).  The footbed broke down after ~17 mos of skating (I skate ~7 hrs/wk), but the Pedag arch supports were still fine.  Rather than buying a replacement pair of Elite footbeds, I made my own insoles.  Time will tell how long they hold up.

[beginner skater]

tstop4me, your post and links are incredibly helpful, many thanks. The pedags are available in amazon uk, although only in tan, and you have helped me to decide to favour the balance.

Could you tell me approx how many mm thick the balance are at the thickest point? There's not a lot of space in my boots

The balance are described as shifting the weight on to the heel bone, whilst I am trying to give my feet the option of weighting my mid foot. I take it where the weight shifts too is a function of where you place the insert?

[tstop4me]

tstop4me, your post and links are incredibly helpful, many thanks. The pedags are available in amazon uk, although only in tan, and you have helped me to decide to favour the balance.

Could you tell me approx how many mm thick the balance are at the thickest point? There's not a lot of space in my boots

The balance are described as shifting the weight on to the heel bone, whilst I am trying to give my feet the option of weighting my mid foot. I take it where the weight shifts too is a function of where you place the insert?

For the large size, the max thickness (inclusive of the leather covering) of the Balance is 13 mm; in comparison, for the Step (large tan), it is 27 mm.  And you are correct, by shifting the position of the arch support with respect to the insole, you can shift the position of maximum pressure.  With respect to the main rubber support section of the Balance, the max length (heel-to-toe longitudinal direction) is 100 mm.  The main "hump" is ~80 mm long, starting from the heel end.  There is then an ~20 mm long "neck" extending towards the toe end.   I highly recommend Velcro for ease of shifting position.

[beginner skater]

Thanks tstop4me. I'm ordering the pedaq balance tonight, altho am planning on leaving off the velcor til after my 1st skate.
, on the grounds that my skates can be laced tight enough that they wont shift.

I have had 2 sessions on the diy midsoles, the 1st session I had trouble staying off my heels. 2nd session the next day they must have compressed a bit, and my edges were better, more stable, altho I had to remove the right side after 1/2 hour, as they were killing my foot.

Backward crossovers miraculously improved. So much so I was surprised Robin Cousins (who made an unaccustomed visit to the rink), didnt poach me for the Olympic squad.

Do I need to put LOL?

[davincisop]

Icepixie, seeing your inserts makes me feel so much better about mine haha. I pronate on both feet (right foot way more than left) so I favored my left side from childhood on the ice. My right side is getting stronger, but now it's a matter of just getting comfortable truly leaning there, and I have been adding padding as needed in the right boot to get my foot to where I can step right onto a right outside edge, especially now that I'm focused in dance. I'm close to them being perfect, but they can still use just a bit more tinkering. But way better than they used to be.

[beginner skater]

Interim update:

Late nite shopping for Pedag Balance inserts resulted in the arrival of some Pedag Steps. 

And I was right in surmising from tstop4me's helpful measurements that they would be too thick.  Altho I can probably stick them in some other shoes.

So now Pedag Balances have been ordered  and arrived. And gosh, there's very little room in skates to stick a hand down and make minute adjustments.
Attempts to use stick in velcro unsuccessful so far, lots of fiddling resulted in the bottom layer removing the top surface of the hardboardy bit under the insole.

In the end I positioned the right one just by nestling it where it fitted the boot and slapping on some sellotape. I've had two skates so far on the one insole, and while it doesn't feel quite right in that I can feel it all the time, it hasn't resulted in extreme pain like the softer, thinner craft foam. And has improved the ease with which I can get on my R outside edge, and therefore my slaloms. Next week I am going to add in the L insole 

I am sure it would bear with more fiddling about, but right now I'm 3 weeks off test day, so need to concentrate on thumb tacking those FI 3s.

Cos nailing aint gonna happen 

So thanks for all your input 

[tstop4me]

So now Pedag Balances have been ordered  and arrived. And gosh, there's very little room in skates to stick a hand down and make minute adjustments.
Attempts to use stick in velcro unsuccessful so far, lots of fiddling resulted in the bottom layer removing the top surface of the hardboardy bit under the insole.

....
In the end I positioned the right one just by nestling it where it fitted the boot and slapping on some sellotape.
....

Yeah, it's difficult to adjust the positions of the arch supports while they are inside the boots.  Here's what I do.  I remove the insoles from the boots.  After I attach the arch supports (Steps for me) to the insoles [see below], I use a fine color marker (first color) to trace the outlines of the arch supports on the insoles.  I then insert the insoles into the boots and try them on to see how they feel.  I get an initial estimate of whether they need to be repositioned.  If they do need to be repositioned, I remove the insoles from the boots again, and remove the arch supports from the insoles again.  Using the previously traced outlines as guides, I reposition and reattach the arch supports.  I then retrace the outlines of the arch supports on the insoles with a fine color marker (second color).  Repeat as needed.  You can do a couple of iterations off-ice; attach blade guards to your blades, stand and walk about the floor.  Do final adjustments after you skate on them.

Here's a tip for dealing with Velcro tape.  Remove the double-sided sticky tape from the bottoms of the arch supports.  Line the entire bottom surfaces of the arch supports with the hard Velcro.  Trim the Velcro with sharp scissors to conform to the bottom surfaces of the arch supports.

Now, line regions of the top surfaces of the insoles with soft Velcro.  The areas of the soft Velcro should exceed the areas of the bottoms of the arch supports over their target positions (allow a minimum of ~2 cm excess all around).  If you think you have sufficient clearance in the toe and heel regions, I would simply cover the entire top surfaces of the insoles with soft Velcro (makes a good surface to plant your foot on).  [See below for moleskin interface.] Again, trim the Velcro to conform to the insoles.

If you need to reposition the arch supports, to avoid tearing the top surfaces of the insoles, don't yank the arch supports off.   Use your thumb and forefinger of one hand to hold down a portion of the hard Velcro and insole adjacent to a portion of the arch support.  With your other hand, slip a fingernail under the adjacent portion of the arch support, and slowly start to "peel" the arch support from the insole.  Once you have enough clearance, grab the arch support with your thumb and forefinger, and peel the insole and arch support away from one another until they are completely separated.

If you want a smoother, less abrupt, feel to the arch supports, cover the top surfaces with soft Velcro if you have sufficient clearance.  Otherwise cover with moleskin.  Note:  If you want to play it safe, use moleskin first.  You can then cover the moleskin with soft Velcro.  If you apply Velcro tape directly to the top leather of the arch support, and then decide to remove the Velcro, you could damage the leather surface (the Velcro adhesive is very sticky).  The adhesive on the Curad moleskin is less sticky (even so, if you need to remove the moleskin, peel it away slowly to avoid tearing the leather surface; don't yank).  [You can use this same moleskin interface if you're concerned about damaging the top surfaces of the insoles if you need to remove Velcro tape from the insoles.]

You don't want to depend on sticky tape to hold the arch supports in place.  They will come loose after a while, and your boots will feel different.

Good luck!

[beginner skater]

Thank you so much t4 for taking the time to explain this. I'm not sure how much room I have for layers of velcro, ( I have heavy duty velcro) and wondering whether it would work to velcro to the undersides of my insoles.  You're right I do want to soften the edges. Project for next week to put in the other one. Might experiment with duck tape

[tstop4me]

Thank you so much t4 for taking the time to explain this. I'm not sure how much room I have for layers of velcro, ( I have heavy duty velcro) and wondering whether it would work to velcro to the undersides of my insoles.  You're right I do want to soften the edges. Project for next week to put in the other one. Might experiment with duck tape

Not sure why you would apply Velcro to the bottom of the insoles.  Besides, it's the total thickness that matters, so if there's sufficient clearance to add Velcro to the bottom, then there should be sufficient clearance to add Velcro to the top instead.  And remember, soft Velcro is fairly squishy.

If by "heavy duty" Velcro, you are referring to the Velcro marked as "industrial strength" or "industrial strength - extreme", then that's the wrong grade for this application, and that's probably why you've been having problems. 

[beginner skater]

Not sure why you would apply Velcro to the bottom of the insoles. 

To soften the edges of the Balance insole, whilst making minor adjustments of position easier by being able to take out the insole, as opposed to fiddling inside the boot. Altho just wondering if forceps would help.

The heavy duty velcro is left over from some long forgotten project, I have a 1 x 50 mm meter roll. I guess I need to go velcro shopping, or buy the cheapest on eBay on the assumption that it will be flimsier.

One can have too many hobbies, especially when there's a lot of extra fiddling to do 

[tstop4me]

To soften the edges of the Balance insole, whilst making minor adjustments of position easier by being able to take out the insole, as opposed to fiddling inside the boot. Altho just wondering if forceps would help.

The heavy duty velcro is left over from some long forgotten project, I have a 1 x 50 mm meter roll. I guess I need to go velcro shopping, or buy the cheapest on eBay on the assumption that it will be flimsier.

One can have too many hobbies, especially when there's a lot of extra fiddling to do 

If you specifically want to soften the border between the Balance arch supports and the insoles, it's more effective to line the tops of the arch supports and the tops of the insoles with soft Velcro.  It addition to providing an extra layer of cushioning, the soft Velcro also provides the right amount of friction to minimize slippage of the foot, while not being abrasive.  These comments apply to the standard Velcro.  The industrial-strength Velcro is more rigid.  Also, the Velcro-to-Velcro bond of the industrial-strength Velcro is so strong that I consider it to be quasi-permanent; not really suited for fine repositioning. 

[xoxo_tw]

Sure.  I was hesitant to take it out and photograph it to show the layers well because I wasn't sure I'd be able to get it back in the same spot, but hopefully this gives you the idea.

great work !!!   

[beginner skater]

Both Pedag Balances in, and have skated a couple of times. I'm pretty pleased, they do fill most of the gap between my mid foot and my skate.

They could possibly do with some fine tuning of position (still relying on sellotape, which keeps them in place when my feet are out), and possibly contouring, but it'll be a lot easier using them as a template and just doing a bit of layering on the top.

And they're comfortable enough, and functional enough to just leave be for the time being.

Very grateful for all your input