Do blades get water stains?

[kiwiskater]

Hi All

Now let me just start by saying I'm ultra paranoid about my blades - some of you will have seen an earlier post that my brand new blades got rust on them before I even used them on the ice. They have developed a few marks & I'm worried that they are an early sign of deterioration in the blade again.

I'd point out that I take great care to dry my blades after each use and soakers are promptly whacked on afterwards (and I've taken care to dry the soakers between uses as well) to try and avoid rust issues.

Anyway about these marks - some marks look like scratches - I'm assuming that I've got a dirt particle between the blade & towel as I have dried at one point and the dirt has caused a scratch? Other marks look like water stains on the plates (or whatever you call the bits screwed into the boot) of the blade, and the hollow of the blade has a speckled look - but not a rusty speckle like when they had rust before...

Any opinions/suggestions?

[Isk8NYC]

The speckled look in the blade hollow is probably the remnants of the rust problem.  It leaves dark marks, but doesn't hurt the blade's usage.  After a few sharpenings, the spots will disappear.

The scratches can come from the drying cloth, but the rubber guards can also cause scratches if there's debris inside the guard.  Clean the guard channel regularly.  Walking around in the guards creates friction, which causes rub marks on the blade, like a high water mark. That is also harmless because it's just the chroming affected, not the steel.  Sometimes, that just rubs off because it's rubber residue.

I stopped doing Lussi scratch spins (which end with a blade *ching*) because blade-to-blade does the most damage, causing real scratches.  Any time you cross blades, such as a "click of death" on back crossovers, you've likely scratched the blade a bit.

Someone - is it Bill_S? - uses auto polishing wax on his blades to prevent water spots and keep them shiny and smooth.  Worth a try to see if it'll keep your blades nice.

A little Halloween humor:
The edges are connected to the blade; the blade is connected to the stanchions; the stanchions are connected to the plate; and the plate is connected to the sole of the boot!
(Clumsily sung to the tune of "The Toe Bone's Connected to the Foot Bone...")

[Bill_S]

Someone - is it Bill_S? - uses auto polishing wax on his blades to prevent water spots and keep them shiny and smooth.  Worth a try to see if it'll keep your blades nice.

Not me, BTW. I use a light rust-proofing oil (Birchwood Casey polarized "Sheath") when storing blades over the summer, but that's about it. I'm not that concerned about appearance of the blades - within reason, of course.

[Isk8NYC]

Sorry, you're clever enough to have been the person to think that one up.

[kiwiskater]

The speckled look in the blade hollow is probably the remnants of the rust problem.  It leaves dark marks, but doesn't hurt the blade's usage.  After a few sharpenings, the spots will disappear.

A little Halloween humor:
The edges are connected to the blade; the blade is connected to the stanchions; the stanchions are connected to the plate; and the plate is connected to the sole of the boot!
(Clumsily sung to the tune of "The Toe Bone's Connected to the Foot Bone...")

LOL, appreciate the gesture

Seriously though they sharpened the rust off the first time it appeared and it all looked shiny & new, then over the last week they developed these mysterious stains think like dried up rain drops - they leave those mini puddle like spots - that's what the water stains look like. Between Wed & Sun those 'water stains' on the hollow have turned ominously brown.

Some of the other stains look similar to what you describe - a high water mark at the stanchions and puddle like marks on the plate at the tail/heel end. It feels rough like the plating has bubbled up a little..

I have no idea if this is normal, last time I took them into the shop they dismissed the rust as something that happens to skates regularly (despite the fact that they had never been on the ice).

I'd post a picture but I can't get it to show up clearly in a photo (not to mention that my camera has a really hard time focussing to take a photo of the blade)

[Isk8NYC]

I remember reading a post that said some rinks mix stuff into the ice, but I think it might just be the ice paint (usually non-toxic chalk-based powder) bleeding through the ice during melt/freeze cycles.  Perhaps that is what you're seeing on the blades as water spots?

I'd give the automobile polish a shot to see if it cleans the stuff off and makes the water bead up.  (Might do my own skates since I need to waterproof)

The roughness and bubbled plating is a valid concern.  If it feels like the plating is detaching, go back to the pro shop.  I'm sure the manufacturer will replace the blades.  Six or seven years ago, Jackson replaced my oldest DD's blades for free when the chroming started to peel off in strips.  (Mfg defect)

[katz in boots]

LOL, appreciate the gesture

Seriously though they sharpened the rust off the first time it appeared and it all looked shiny & new, then over the last week they developed these mysterious stains think like dried up rain drops - they leave those mini puddle like spots - that's what the water stains look like. Between Wed & Sun those 'water stains' on the hollow have turned ominously brown.

Some of the other stains look similar to what you describe - a high water mark at the stanchions and puddle like marks on the plate at the tail/heel end. It feels rough like the plating has bubbled up a little..

Okay, here's my 5cents worth.
I think the blades should be returned for a refund.  Bubbling of the plating is not normal.   
What type of blades are they?   I have read about some brands having flaking/bubbling coating in the low-end market. 
I have blades that weren't skated on or touched for about 20 years.  The only problem with them after that time was that I'd stored them in guards, so the hollow was a mess - cleaned up on first sharpening.  No spots, rust or bubbling. 
Water marks happen but wipe straight off cos they're just on the surface - there shouldn't be stains.
Rust in the hollow does happen -more so with some blades than others.  Again, I've found this mainly with low-end blades.
If you're drying thoroughly and using decent soakers home from the rink, then letting them air-dry betweeen skates, they shouldn't be rusting.
I have also heard of people using vaseline or oil on blades to prevent rust, but I think that's mainly when storing them for some time.


 

[Isk8NYC]

I'm not sure the quality of the blade, if anyone knows how good they are please let me know - since they are not the named blades on the box & they have developed rust, I'd hope to convince them to put on Club 2000's if they are better & the chance to change them over is closing fast....

That post showed photos of "Royal 2000" blades that had "Graf by MM" on the tail.  I've never heard of those blades, so I don't know whether or not they're better/worse than Club 2000's. 

These sound inferior given the rust and now finish issues, so I'd say katz is right: get new blades.  You're an adult, so the blades have to last longer since you won't outgrow the boot.

Did the blades come with the boots as a set?  In that case, you won't get a refund or the value will be minimal...maybe $20 US. 

Ask for better-quality replacement blades.  When my DD's Ultima Mark IV blades were replaced, I think Jackson sent an MK Club 2000 blade, which seems to be what you really wanted in the first place.

[kiwiskater]

That post showed photos of "Royal 2000" blades that had "Graf by MM" on the tail.  I've never heard of those blades, so I don't know whether or not they're better/worse than Club 2000's. 

These sound inferior given the rust and now finish issues, so I'd say katz is right: get new blades.  You're an adult, so the blades have to last longer since you won't outgrow the boot.

Did the blades come with the boots as a set?  In that case, you won't get a refund or the value will be minimal...maybe $20 US. 

Ask for better-quality replacement blades.  When my DD's Ultima Mark IV blades were replaced, I think Jackson sent an MK Club 2000 blade, which seems to be what you really wanted in the first place.

Yeah they came as a combo.  I did research around when I first got them and heard good stuff about Club's and there was NOTHING on Royal 200's. When the first rust issues showed up I asked the owner of the shop (they hockey guys who work the shop are useless) why the box said Club but came with Royal - apparently Club 2000's are being discontinued & Graf have designed Royal 2000's as their replacement.

As you say the blades need to last - I've used them for all of 3 weeks and these issues have popped up again, I reckon that if I kept them then I'll be forever battling these issues. I'm going to go back to the shop but I fear that I'm going to get the same dismissal I got last time - oh its no big deal - and they'll sharpen them again to make the rust go away.

They've already been sharpened twice now - once from factory grind and once to remove rust, I feel like I paid a lot of $ for them and they should last months between sharpens - otherwise you are compromising the life of the blade...

[kiwiskater]

So I haven't had a chance to get back to the pro shop (haven't skated in a mid-week session for 2 weeks & the shop isn't open when I skate on Sundays). My mum made the suggestion that maybe I should write to complain to Graf about the crap quality of their blades.

Does anyone reckon its worth a go, or have tried to write direct to a skate manufacturer?

[FigureSpins]

I spoke to a Jackson rep at a coaches' conference about my oldest DD's blades "peeling" chrome problem.  He gave me his card and said to have the pro shop order replacement ones, which they did and all was good.

Try it.  You could introduce it nicely, asking about how to stop the rusting that seems to persist.  Include photos of the various rust problems you've encountered and ask if it's possible that there was a manufacturing defect.  Did you say the finish was bubbling?  If so, mention/show that and say that it was probably just a fluke since their products have such a good reputation.  Mention that you've asked around and this seem to be unusual.

You have nothing to lose.

[kiwiskater]

Thanks, I really need to get down to the shop but I can't really afford them to grab them off me like last time but if I wait 2 weeks until the lesson season has finished it might be a bit late to get anything done.

The problem has spread since my last update, I'm pretty sure chrome has peeled off in one place (but it's not really obvious) and I noticed as I wiped down my skates after my last lesson it's not only the hollow has rust stains now - there is a clear rust stain on the plate around the edge of one of the screws. I try my best to dry the whole blade but obviously I can't get right down the side of the screw where it connects with the plate.

I guess I just need to get down to the shop and try my best but I feel like they won't treat the issue as a manufacturing (or their) problem and just push it back on me again - there is no way I can accept that the solution is to sharpen the blade AGAIN....it's only been 6 weeks of skating since the last sharpen..but I don't feel like I know what to do if that's their answer?

[katz in boots]

I get the rusting around the screw hole problem, no matter what blades I have.  I think it's actually the screw rusting, not the blade plate, as the rest of it is fine.

I seem to recall someone on the old forum recommending you replace the usual skate screws with stainless steel ones.  Makes sense to me - but why would a blade manufacturer supply screws that were going to rust?

[Isk8NYC]

For the same reason Jackson had the same super-long length laces in every size boot a few years ago.  It saves them money.  Stainless steel screws cost more.  Some skate fitters use their own stainless steel screws to mount the blades and build it into their pricing, but these are stock skates, so they were mounted at the factory.

I suspect that the blades don't match the box because they're lower quality and someone decided to save money or pull a fast one.  I've seen Club 2000 blades for sale online (new and used), but never these GAM ones.

[kiwiskater]

I suspect that the blades don't match the box because they're lower quality and someone decided to save money or pull a fast one.  I've seen Club 2000 blades for sale online (new and used), but never these GAM ones.

thanks for the tip, I wonder if you are right! I'm planning to go to the shop next week sometime hopefully but they have such stupid hours its difficult...

[FigureSpins]

In the meantime, send a note to the manufacturer.  That way, you can get their authorization for an exchange before you talk to the pro shop.  BTW, the pro shop should order the blades and then mount them when they come in.  They shouldn't have to keep the skates for anything other than the mounting process.

[kiwiskater]

In the meantime, send a note to the manufacturer.  That way, you can get their authorization for an exchange before you talk to the pro shop.  BTW, the pro shop should order the blades and then mount them when they come in.  They shouldn't have to keep the skates for anything other than the mounting process.

Ha - they keep most of their stock mounted with blades, these look like they might have those stock blades that they ship the skates with, so potentially they were supposed to be replaced?

[kiwiskater]

Okey dokey - so I've written them a love letter now that they are due to reopen with the rink next week (they've been closed for 2+ months)..anyone like to assist with critique before I send it to them?

This letter is to complain about issues my new Graf Prestige skates recently developed after purchase.

I purchased the skates on 24 August 2010, however due to an injury I did not return to skating (and therefore use my skates for the first time) until the 20 October. In that time before I returned to skating the skates developed a rust issue on the hollow of blade. I brought them back to the shop in September (you emailed me on 8 September to say that the skates were ready to be picked up) and they were sharpened and I was given a pair of soakers.

At that time I also noticed that the box the skates were supplied in looked like they had been damp sometime before I purchased them as there was a water stain in the box (see photo below). However your email after you looked at the skates assured me that it was a common problem, which while I found difficult to imagine (when they had never been used and that they had been sharpened at the time of purchase), however I was led to believe that the problem was common and that the sharpening & soakers would solve the problem.
Since that time the blades have also developed other problems. The chrome/steel on the sole plates has bubbled and begun to peel in places and there is rust developing around the screw holes of one of the skates. There are 'tide marks' appearing in places on the skates as well. The rust on the hollow also returned within 2 months after returning to skating.
I meticulously care for my skates and believe that the problems are a defect not a care issue, I put blade guards on as I leave the ice until I take my skates off once reaching my belongings, the skates are dried thoroughly at the end of every session I skate in (on average - once a week) including down crevices/holes and around all surfaces, soakers are put on, soakers are dried after each use and returned to the skates.

At the time I brought them back I also noticed that the blades on the box were different to those supplied, I was informed by someone on the phone (when I called your shop) that the Club 2000 blades were being discontinued and that Royal 2000 supplied with the skates were of an equivalent quality. I have not seen any evidence that this is actually the case – in fact walking into your shop recently I noticed all the skates of this type were being supplied with Club 2000 blades, given all the issues with these Royal 2000 blades I would suspect that they are of an inferior quality.

Needless to say, I have been quite frustrated by the continued issues with these blades and respectfully request that you change these defective blades for the correct (Club 2000) blades as they should have been supplied with and that they are mounted with stainless screws that will not rust.
I expected a much higher level of service from your company, and I am quite disappointed. Because I do not want to spend any more time on this problem, I am expecting that you will remedy this situation as obliged under the consumer guarantees Act particularly; "Goods must be of acceptable quality (i.e. be durable, last for a reasonable time and have no minor defects), Goods must match description."

[FigureSpins]

I would emphasize the quality problem and put the onus on the manufacturer rather than the shop.

The pro shop didn't cause the plating or chronic rust issues; they're manufacturing defects or, as you said, inferior quality. 

Instead of asking specifically for the Club 2000 blades, ask for a higher quality blade.  You might get something even better if you're flexible.  Just make sure to check out what they offer before you accept, so you know you're not getting ripped off.

[kiwiskater]

Ooh cool - I should leave it open then & ask for a better quality blade? I can certainly look around & ask you guys for opinions before accepting new blades (if they offer)...

I'm not sure how to stress that the manufacturer is responsible?

[FigureSpins]

Try this: write the letter to Graf and cc the skate shop. 

That way, the shop isn't made out to be the bad guy and the manufacturer has to make an effort to resolve the problem.  We both know the shop should have already addressed the problem, but they didn't make the blades, they just sold them to you.  The defects (rust, poor finish) are Graf's responsibility.  The shop has made some good-faith efforts, but the blades are just poorly made, which isn't the shop's fault.

In the letter, say that:
. per the box, the skates should have come with a better blade than the Royal 2000;
. these blades have chronic rust problems despite being maintained properly;
. the blades don't "hold" their sharpening well, even with the use of guards;
. repeated skate sharpening hasn't helped stop the rust from developing; and
. the finish is bubbling and peeling, which may be cosmetic, but isn't acceptable.

Don't volunteer too many dates.  You purchased the skates in August and the rust problem began even before you used them in October.  You had to have them sharpened twice before they even touched the ice and have made a good-faith effort to use these blades, but you're very dissatisfied with the quality. 

Make sure you include your boot size, boot sole measurement, and the Royal 2000 blade size.  State you would like to make arrangements to have a better blade mounted on your current boots or the set replaced with the same model boot and a better blade since you find this one unacceptable.

Include the shop's name, address, and contact info (owner/phone/fax) and ask Graf to make arrangements for replacing either the blade or the skate set.  You can mention that the shop has been closed, so you wanted to wait until they reopened to address this issue.  (Honestly, I would have sent Graf a complaint letter months ago.  The shop is just the middleman.)

I've been up since 4:30am, so this is just a draft of ideas.

[aussieskater]

Kiwiskater, before you send your letter, you might want to phone your local Department of Consumer Affairs (or whatever it's called there) to find out who is liable in your local consumer law.  It might make a difference to the letter you need to write!

Figurespins, I'm not sure what the rules are in the USA and Canada (or for that matter in NZ), but in Australia the law is very clear - the contract for purchase is between the purchaser and the retailer, not between the purchaser and the manufacturer.  It's the retailer's job to make good, and the retailer has to deal with the manufacturer to obtain reimbursement after the event if need be.  The retailer is not even allowed to delay redress to the purchaser on the grounds that the manufacturer hasn't come good yet.

I suspect that the letter kiwiskater has drafted would fit the Australian situation very well, but of course she's not in Australia.  The law in NZ might be such that your suggestions would work better.

Good luck kiwiskater!

[Sk8tmum]

I decided to do another "hunt" for these blades, thinking that, as time has passed, perhaps information would be out there in the Graf site or on the internet.  There is still NO reference to Royal 200 by MM. However, they are showing the Prestige boots as being fitted with a Lausanne/Kingston blade on the Graf site, and other retailers reference a Kingston blade.

Now, I live in an area plagued by counterfeiters of quality/name brand products brought in from overseas (often China). These products often have names that are "close" but "not the same" and the quality is of course lousy.  I'm wondering if that is the source for your blades.  The "MM" is almost "MK", and the Royal 2000 is "almost" Club 2000.  Sounds like a knock-off clone. 

I would also CALL Graf and tell them what you were sold and what the problem has been.  Talk to somebody. Generally, the skate manufacturers want to monitor the quality of the shops that distribute their product.  Ask them about these blades ... and see if they have any knowledge of them at all, as, frankly, none of their blades have any MM on them, but, are simply engraved with GRAF of Switzerland implying that GRAF is the manufacturer. Then, you have a more informed stance in terms of talking/writing to your pro shop.

[kiwiskater]

ooh good info guys!

Aussie is right though it is the responsibility of the retailer to ensure that the products they sell are of quality, if it is a manufacturing issue then they are supposed to take the rap and the pass it back to the manufacturer.

Your rights with faulty and unsatisfactory goods

When you have bought a product that doesn't meet one of the guarantees you have the following rights:
If the problem is minor

You can ask the seller to fix it. The seller must choose between repairing the goods, replacing them, or giving you a refund. If the trader refuses to fix the problem or takes more than a reasonable time to do so, you can

   * return the goods and ask for your money back, or
   * ask for a replacement, if the same type of goods are reasonably available to the seller, or
   * take the goods elsewhere to be fixed and ask the seller to pay the cost of repair.

If the goods you buy are faulty the seller is required to sort out the problem. A seller can not tell you to take the problem to the manufacturer. You, however, can choose to seek a remedy for the problem from either the seller or the manufacturer.

I looked up graf's website and the only information I could find is that the people I bought off are the international distributor of NZ. I got the impression that as an authorised dealer you should go back to the company through the retailer (especially given consumer law as I mentioned above).

Sk8 - interesting theory, did you also notice that Graf's website mentions that they come either as Lausanne/Kingston AND club 2000's, and you are very right - there is zero information out there about these blades, my numerous hunts have come up with the same result yours have and is another reason why I've decided they have been misleading