Unmatched blade rocker

[jbruced]

A preliminary comparison of my blades seems to indicate that the rocker on my blades doesn't match. I am also thinking that the rocker on both is no longer a 7ft. These blades have only been sharpened 3 times with not much use overall. I can't afford new blades at this time. My legs hurt for days after skating now and I think it maybe related to problems with the blades. I am considering grinding the blades to reshape them to the manufacturer specification of a 7 foot rocker and then having them sharpened by the guy I use for sharpening. He did the first sharpening, someone else did the second sharpening and ruined the blades and then the first guy corrected what he could of the damage but the blades have never been right since that second sharpening.

I have experience in sharpening/grinding high end cutlery, scissors and shears. I realize that this will drastically reduce the life of the blades but I am hoping this will get me through this skating season  while I save up enough money for a new set of blades.

Are there any thoughts on regrinding the rocker on misshapen blades?

[Bill_S]

Can you use a template to make sure that they match each other? If I were starting from scratch, that's what I'd attempt to do. Even a paper template scribed onto blue Dykem on the side of the blade would provide some sort of guide for the desired rocker shape.

With all the bad grinds so far, and now taking off more metal, check the toe pick position to make sure it doesn't become a problem.

[jbruced]

Can you use a template to make sure that they match each other? If I were starting from scratch, that's what I'd attempt to do. Even a paper template scribed onto blue Dykem on the side of the blade would provide some sort of guide for the desired rocker shape.

With all the bad grinds so far, and now taking off more metal, check the toe pick position to make sure it doesn't become a problem.

If I decide to go ahead with this I would definitely use a template attached to the blade. The toe pick would most likely need to be reground and information on the toe picks original position is something I need to research further.

[Loops]

Jbruced, where are you?


It sounds like you're reasonably confident in doing this yourself, but if you're hesitating or want to talk to an expert, I'd find your closest "master sharpener" and take them there, or at least talk to them.

Mike Cunningham, in the DC area, I know can repair rockers.  He has masters for a number of different blades.  I know he's done work for people by mail, as well, so if you can be separated from your skates for a while, that's another option (google Skaters Paradise in Waldorf MD).  I'm sure he's not the only person though who can do this type of work, so perhaps you'll be able to find someone in your area.

Bad sharpenings are terrible, and I'm so sad you're stuck in this situation.  I hope you can get it resolved happily and get even more than one more season out of your blades.  Best of luck navigating through this.

[Query]

There are at least two different rocker radius's on your blades. If you drop yourself down to one rocker radius, or move the "sweet spot" where they join to the wrong spot, it will be harder to do turns and spins.

If you have a very nice pro shop manager, they may let you trace a few new blades to help you guess what the profile "should" be - though many good sharpeners move the sweet spot to be more or less vertically under the balls of your feet, or just forward of them.

Some would say that the sweet spot placement on your blades should be different - because your feet are different. Why not ask your sharpener if it was on purpose?

[irenar5]

Maybe you can start with having ROH slightly shallower.  Perhaps you are sticking too much in the ice and have to push a lot harder? 

If the blades were reshaped drastically, I would expect problems with turning and spinning.  Are you having any issues with that?

What did your original sharpener say about the blades after he tried to fix them? 

[jbruced]

Loops--I live in Kentucky. My only hesitations at the moment are time and being aware of what Query commented about; the multiple rocker radii that are present. I need to find the manufacturers specifications or a master template work from or create my own template so at least the two blades match even if they aren't back to the original manufactures profile.

Query--thank you for the link. While I was aware of the multiple rockers on a skating blade, many are not aware of this including some people who are sharpening skates.

irenar5--I have had a ROH that has gone from 7/16" to 3/8" to 5/16". The second person to sharpen the skates did a ROH of 1/2" even though I specifically asked for 5/16". The skates came new at 7/16" and I was sliding all over so my coach at the time took them to the first guy to sharpen them. Things were a bit better with the 3/8" ROH but not good so my coach took them back to the first guy again and he gave the blades a 5/16" ROH and I was in heaven on ice. Skating was such a joy back then. When I came back to skating after a long break my blades eventually became dull and in need of sharpening. I didn't know who the first guy was so I made inquiries at the rink and had them sharpen the skates. This was the disaster. The blades were awful and I could barely skate. There was no joy in skating. I then found out who the first guy was and took them to him to be sharpened and he showed me what all was wrong and it was ugly. He spent a couple of hours with me while we worked on correcting the damage done by the second guy. The ROH was now at 7/16" which still had me sliding around like when the skates were brand new. So he re-did them at 3/8" which is better but not the heaven on ice that 5/16" gives me. All of this happened in the spring of 2014. I have an appointment with my sharpener this evening and will discuss the rocker issue with him to see if he feels like he can fix it. I also heard recently that he knows some good places to buy blades if I am forced down that path sooner than later. The time I have spent with this guy gives me absolute trust in his abilities and any limitations he feels he has.

[Query]

While I was aware of the multiple rockers on a skating blade, many are not aware of this including some people who are sharpening skates.

Yes!

If your current sharpener is reasonably careful, and understands the basic issues, then I don't see a problem. Matching a specific shape isn't black magic.

Do the unmatched rockers actually matter? If you don't notice any obvious side effects, maybe it's inconsequential. The advantages that any blade shape creates is always associated with a corresponding set of disadvantages, in terms of specific moves and poses being a little easier or harder. Maybe you have gotten used to the profiles you have. In the course of matching them, he may have to remove a lot of steel, reducing your blade life.

[Casey]

Aha, finally somebody else who likes 5/16" ROH!  There's not many of us...  I wonder, if you might share a bit about yourself - maybe height and weight and skating style, as that may be a factor.  I'm 5'11" and 155 lbs, and strongly prefererred 5/16" sharpenings when I had Wilson blades.  For some reason ROH feels completely different on 440 stainless steel though, so I'm back to 7/16" on my current blades.

[jbruced]

Query--Ever since the sharpening that messed my blades up I have had a fair amount of muscle pain/tendonosis type of pain. It has become enough to keep me from sleeping well at night. The good thing is the guy who is doing all the work on my blades is very careful and pays a great deal of attention to details.

Casey--I am 6ft tall and weigh 240 lbs. I like to skate with a good bit of speed because I like the feeling of flying across the ice but I also like strong powerful curves. When going around the ends of the rink either forwards or backwards at speed I like to feel connected to the ice. I don't like feeling like my feet are going out from under me with every stroke. I'm not doing any jumps because they don't interest me. My goal is to get into ice dance.

Good news tonight! My sharpening guy was able to make a better tracing of the blades than I was able make during my preliminary look. Things weren't off as much as I thought and he was able to get them back to matching. I stayed with the 3/8" ROH this time. If I still feel the slippage I will take them back and press for the 5/16" ROH. One thing he confirmed, which I was skeptical of, is that my boots have broken down. This might be the cause of the pain in my legs. I guess now I need to look into either repairing the boots or getting new ones.

[Query]

Ever since the sharpening that messed my blades up I have had a fair amount of muscle pain/tendonosis type of pain.

How horrible!

Can anyone here guess why a bad sharpening would do that? I can't figure it out.

I understand why a bottom-of-the-boot whose shape doesn't match your foot well (e.g., assumes that you have flatter or higher arches than you really do, or has a bend in the bottom that is too far from the ball of your foot) would cause problems with your muscles or ligaments. Essentially, I guess it is scrunching up or over-stretching your muscles, ligaments, or other connective tissues.

And I understand why continuous muscle use, if you need to use muscles because the sideways or forward/back slant of the bottom of the boot and that of your foot mismatches, and/or the blade offset isn't set right to effortlessly balance your foot, forces you to continually over-use those muscles - though "tendonosis" sounds more serious than muscle over-use. I had muscle pain big-time myself, before I learned how to reshape and rebalance my boots.

And of course, too much pressure on muscle tissue (including tendons) can rupture those muscles (e.g., the classic top-of-the-back-of-the-skate rupturing the Achilles tendon problem), so a major pressure point on a boot (which could be stretched to fix the problem) could easily do bad things.

But why would a blade shape create tendonosis or sore muscles?

I could sort of see how a little muscle over-use could occur, from trying to stabilize a position by making your body a little too stiff, because you aren't sure how to hold yourself. But to the extant of causing actual damage to the tendons? Especially since you aren't jumping. I don't see how.

I could sort of see how massively uneven edges (e.g., inside edge higher than outside edge, or vice versa - which you can detect by balancing a Popsicle stick across the blades, and see if it looks square to the blade; repeat at many points along the blade) might cause a little excess muscle use too - but any careful skate sharpener who has had more than 15 minutes of instruction would fix that, because it may be the most common beginner's mistake, that annoys both figure and hockey skaters. And you say your current sharpener is careful, so I assume that isn't the problem.

Can anyone explain how a mis-shapen blade could even possibly do that?

P.S. jbruced, approximately where are you located? Maybe someone here knows of someone really good near you who could help.

If all else fails, jbruced could try submitting a question to Mr. Edge. He is a Chicago skate technician with a medical background. He's even written a book.

[jbruced]

Query--My skate sharpener thinks I may have changed my posture or skating stance and this may be the cause of my problems. He looked very carefully at the positioning of the blades on the boots and seemed to think all was as it should be. I'm thinking now that maybe he is correct and that I have made subconscious changes based on my sense of feeling insecure on the current ROH. The other possibility is the boots being apparently broke down has caused me to change how I am using my muscles to compensate for a weaker boot. Now that I know the blade profiles are matched that issue should be resolved in my mind. From what I can tell there is no reason for an ROH of 3/8" to be unacceptable for me. Everything I read indicates I should be fine with 1/2' to as shallow as 5/8", but I have always felt very insecure on the ice when I've skated with anything close to 1/2" ROH.

I should note that I don't feel I have actual tendon damage. I used the word tendonosis to describe the sensation and in many cases the location of where I have the feeling of pain. I can tell by palpation that the areas that hurt are tendons.

[Query]

If it were me, and larger than 5/16" gave me bad posture, sore tendons and a lack of confidence, I would go back to 5/16". Your choice.

It sounds like your present sharpener is a careful analytic observer and puts in the extra effort to do his best. I think that's what makes a great skate technician. Nothing is really black magic. It's the people who won't put in the effort, try to go too fast, or who don't try to figure things out who mess up blades.

[jbruced]

If it were me, and larger than 5/16" gave me bad posture, sore tendons and a lack of confidence, I would go back to 5/16". Your choice.

It sounds like your present sharpener is a careful analytic observer and puts in the extra effort to do his best. I think that's what makes a great skate technician. Nothing is really black magic. It's the people who won't put in the effort, try to go too fast, or who don't try to figure things out who mess up blades.

The possible change in posture may be related to a long distance kayak trip I did on the Ohio and Tennessee rivers just before resuming skating. I spent 6 weeks, 8 to 10 hours a day sitting in a kayak. The last 2 days were pretty much with no breaks to even get out of the kayak for a few minutes. When I got to the place I ended the trip I had trouble standing and maintaining balance for a while. Maybe I'm unconsciously doing something different now when I'm skating?  Maybe my legs are just too soft and unconditioned for the skating I like to do? These are things that are coming to mind as I try to figure out what the problem is. My plan is to eliminate the variables one at a time until I figure it all out. To this end your thoughts and comments are highly appreciated.

As for my sharpener; he is as you describe--careful, analytic and uses a very light delicate touch when sharpening. Knowing what I know about sharpening high end cutlery, scissors, shears etc I am impressed with this guy.

[Query]

Sounds like a really fun kayak trip! You probably already know that less aggressive paddling postures will mess up your back less, but I guess that's what you like.

If you sharpen high end cutlery, I bet that you could learn to do skates yourself. It's mostly a matter of being brave enough to try, and careful enough not to cut yourself or make any bad mistakes.