Follow up to Bad Experience with Riedell

[johnallocca]

I found out that the long delay was due to the fitter, not Riedell. Riedell keeps accurate records.

The fitter told me he would send my tracings to Riedell the next morning. I found out he sent them in 2.5 weeks later. Then, the fitter held up the UPS delivery for 1 week.

So, Riedell did in fact keep their promise of delivering custom skates in 4 weeks.

Also, the arches were a little too high for me. As Riedell suggested, I sent them directly to Riedell without involving the fitter. Riedell fixed the arches and got them shipped back to me the next day after receiving them.

John

[TropicalSk8ter]

How are the arches fitting now?


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[johnallocca]

I will get them on Tuesday.

John

[twinskaters]

Glad to hear it wasn't Riedell and that you'll have them soon. Since you're in my area, now I kind of want to know where the fitter was from, so I can potentially avoid!


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[Query]

Well... If the toes are too tight on the sides, I'm not sure I would let off Riedell completely.

Though even that could be a misfit by the fitter. In particular, if the fitter had you use less body weight on the foot than Riedell specifies, when you did a foam impress or tracing, the foot wouldn't be as spread out as Riedell assumes. Likewise, if your body weight wasn't properly centered on the foot, your foot would be tilted, which could change the shape too. That might also be somewhat consistent with a high arch if you had a foam impression fit - but I'm not sure if that could make the arch so high that it hurts, as you complained.

Given the very large number of problems you've had, I would have traveled to Riedell for the fix even if it cost up to $200 or so for the flights or drive. They could have told you whether the fit was so bad fixing the boots wasn't even worth doing. I believe custom boots should be reasonably comfortable without a lot of work - that's a good deal of what you are paying for.

Some of the boot makers - I'm not sure of Riedell - can advise you before you buy of the local boot dealers that have the fewest problems with fit. If you can't afford to travel to the boot maker for the fit itself, that might have been a decent option. Oh well - live and learn.

Hope you at least got decent heat molds.

If only boots were as cheap as shoes at discount shoe stores. Then we would all just toss out the poor fits, and start over.

[Query]

There is another issue with the way a fitter fits boots.

Figure skating boots are high heel shoes. So there is more weight on the toes than on the heels. (What an awful idea! I hate the whole idea of high heel shoes. Though some aspects of figure skating, as the sport has evolved, might be hard to do in level feet. My custom boot heels were originally too high, and they hurt - the fitter finally sent them back to Klingbeil to fix that, but didn't tell me any of the other problems could be fixed...)

Being on high heels has to change the shape of the foot at the toes and the various arches of each foot. (For one thing, there is a bit of a vertical bend at the balls of my feet - not sure if that applies to everyone's boots. Also, the toes should spread out more.)

The boot maker himself (/herself?) can maybe adapt for that. But a relatively untrained store fitter might not try, or know how.

Anyway, I hope things go well for you.

[johnallocca]

Query, the reason my toes were cramped was because the fitter didn't heat mold my boots and my heal was not seated ompletely back into the back of the boot. This is normal.

John

[Query]

Did you heat mold them yourself?

Does everything fit right now, and are they reasonably comfortable?

[johnallocca]

I got the boots back today. Riedell lowered the arches as much as possible. The left arch is ok. But, the right arch is too high for my foot. I guess skating boots are too high for me in general at least in the right arch, which I know is low. I'm out $800 and I won't be able to skate.

John

[Query]

That's terrible!

I hope you immediately call Riedell again. They may still try to please you in some manner - making new boots or refunding the price.

If heat molding gave you enough space over your feet to work with (or another heat mold could), you could also add tape under an insole to raise the parts of your right foot that aren't in the arch.

I assume you have carefully analyzed what you feel, and that the problem really is too high an arch. You could also experience pain if the boot effectively tilts your foot (I had that problem, because the fitter had me do foam impressions with both feet at the same time, and one of my legs is a little longer than the other), so that you are constantly using muscles on one side of your foot (and on up the muscle chain) to try to compensate for the weight imbalance - which eventually makes your muscles sore. That can be fixed by moving the mount left or right - or by adding tape or adhesive foam under one side of the insole. Likewise their might be pain from too big a bend in the foot (e.g., at the ball), or from a foot that is tilted too far forward or back, that can be compensated the same way.

I guess skating boots are too high for me in general at least in the right arch, which I know is low.

Phil from Harlick (who used to be their master boot maker, I think, but more recently toured various competitions fitting people for Harlick boots) once told me he fitted a ballerina with boots that had a completely flat foot bed, at her request. Custom boots CAN be made to match unusual feet, if you go to the right people.

It really isn't fair to a skate boot maker to try to make appropriate custom boots working through fitters of lessor competence, when a few thousandths of an inch can often make the difference between comfort and great pain.

OTOH, I still sometimes blame boot makers a little for dealing with unqualified dealers. I think dealers should be vetted and tested, though maybe that isn't economically viable.

[icedancer]

That's terrible!

I hope you immediately call Riedell again. They may still try to please you in some manner - making new boots or refunding the price.

If heat molding gave you enough space over your feet to work with (or another heat mold could), you could also add tape under an insole to raise the parts of your right foot that aren't in the arch.

I was thinking the same thing.  Can you build up the rest of the footbed so that the arch isn't so high?

I know this is really frustrating.

[AgnesNitt]

My experience with high arches in boots was that I just skated with them. There was pain for a few weeks, but either I got used to them, or they broke in, but they fit fine now.

I also experimented with changing how I tied my skates to take the pressure off my arches and tried different pads under my heels.

[johnallocca]

Yesterday, I brought my skating boots to a friend who is a podiatrist. He said the problem is not so much the arch as it is the high heel. Arthritis has changed my foot over the past 14 years, particularly, the right one whereby my foot will not bend in an unnatural position for high heels. I can only wear regular heel shoes/boots. He said if ignore the pain and skate with these boots, I will damage my foot and have trouble walking.

The fitter said the doctor doesn't know what he is talking about. I should ignore the pain and skate. The pain will go away.

I can skate with inline skates, which is how I started, if I can find a place to skate. Most parks on LI don't allow skating.

John

[PhysicsOnIce]

Is it possible to lower the heel on your boots?

[johnallocca]

If the heel was lowered, one would be tilting backwards because the blades are made for a high heel.

John

[fsk8r]

The heel height is variable on boots and depends on the manufacturer. I've got two pairs of boots (Graf and Jacksons) and the Graf have a lower heel height to the Jacksons.
Ok neither pair of boots is completely flat, but you might be able to come up with a compromise heel height which Reidell are able to provide for you.

[johnallocca]

I will ask them.

John

[Query]

The podiatrist has a degree that says he knows a lot about feet. The fitter may just be someone who went into business for himself, and your experience with him has been rather poor.

Given a choice, I know who I would trust. First the podiatrist. But maybe most of all, me. My feet, and I know what I feel, and I'm not afraid to play around until something works.

It is so easy to trace the insole on a piece of cardboard or thin leather, or a thin dollar store insole, cut it out to create a new insole, and experiment by adding tape or adhesive foam to the underside in strategic places, until your foot is comfortable, that I don't understand why everyone doesn't do this, not just for skate boots, but for ordinary shoes. It just takes a few minutes to do each experiment. There are similar things you can do along side the foot if there is anywhere the boot is too big - though heat molding can fix many of those problems. (For some ideas, take a look the web page in my signature, in the sub-page on modifying boots.)

Once you've got the bottom surface right, maybe re-heat mold the boot to get the side and top right. You yourself posted Riedell's web page on the approximate temperatures to use, and you could do it with a hair drier. You take the parts of the boot you need to change to the temperature it is just pliable enough to form, and you form it. (Not too hot! - or you will melt the threads and glues that hold the boot together, or scorch the leather.)

The podiatrist could create an insole to do this too, and he has a lot of knowledge and experience to guide him, so maybe it takes him a few minutes to get the best possible result instead of an hour or so, but he charges a lot, and if things change, it's good and fun to do it yourself. And the podiatrist may lack experience with heat molding. (On the other hand, there must be many things a podiatrist is trained to know and diagnose that the rest of us can't possibly guess at. They spend a LOT of time training.)

I have trouble convincing most people they can help themselves this way. But you are a scientific researcher, in medicine at that. Trial and error - the experimental approach - is a big part of research. Try it! (I don't have the benefit of your medical training; trial and error, is all that I've got.)

It may or may not be relevant, but there is a difference between an ordinary podiatrist (incidentally, like you, a doctor but not an MD) and a sports podiatrist who has lots of experience with other skaters. Skates have high heals, but skate boots have much better ankle support than high heel fashion shoes, many of which have none. Many ladies on this board have claimed high heel fashion shoes don't feel at all the same as skates.

Besides, a high heel does more than one thing, if you try to analyze what you feel. On my foot, it tilts the whole foot forwards, but it also bends the foot more at the arch, stretches various muscles and ligaments, and alters the shape of and forces on the arches of the foot(Some books claim each foot has 5 structural arches that support the foot and cushion impacts: 3 longitudinal [1 on the lateral side, 1 medial -which may the be the one you meant, and another in between; and two lateral arches, across the center, and across the toes.), and possibly the bursae.

Analyze your pain yourself. Is the pain immediate, as soon as you put the foot in the boot or set your weight on it? Then maybe you are over-stretching a muscle or ligament (or more than one). (Or putting too much force on a bursa??) If not, maybe you are over-using a muscle (or more than one) to compensate for an unsupported part of your foot, or there is a point on the foot that slides, externally or internally, or has too much pressure. There are a finite number of possibilities. With your knowledge, you can probably figure it out. (Or maybe a slightly over-stretched muscle or ligament will finish stretching and the problem will go away, but don't count on it, because skating sometimes puts a lot of extra force on it.)

But if after a day or two you can't figure it out, call Riedell and see what they can do. Like any custom shoe maker, they do this stuff day in, day out, every day, and if you go to them, as expensive as the travel is, they can likely help.

[johnallocca]

I got my foot x-rayed today. The bones where the pain is coming from are partially fused (from arthritis). That is why I cannot bend my foot in the direction as need for high heels.

On the brighter side, I tried my old inline skates on and they fit perfectly (no high heel).

Sometimes in life when you have a lot of trouble with something, it it often for the best to avoid it.

By the way, I didn't mention that the fitter will not give me back my money for the blades that I didn't receive. First he said he couldn't refund my money because he didn't get the blades in (the ramblings of someone insane). Then, he found them and still would not refund my money and won't give a reason. So, I'm disputing the charge on my credit card.

John

[PhysicsOnIce]

If the heel was lowered, one would be tilting backwards because the blades are made for a high heel.

John

As has already been said, that is not necessarily true. There is a wide range of heel heights and even individual brands heel heights can vary from model to model, and in more so with customs. That is, amongst many others, one of reasons why certain blades are recommended for certain boot types/models, because they heel  height is adjusted to fit with the blade contour.

[AgnesNitt]

Yesterday, I brought my skating boots to a friend who is a podiatrist. He said the problem is not so much the arch as it is the high heel. Arthritis has changed my foot over the past 14 years, particularly, the right one whereby my foot will not bend in an unnatural position for high heels. I can only wear regular heel shoes/boots. He said if ignore the pain and skate with these boots, I will damage my foot and have trouble walking.

The fitter said the doctor doesn't know what he is talking about. I should ignore the pain and skate. The pain will go away.

I can skate with inline skates, which is how I started, if I can find a place to skate. Most parks on LI don't allow skating.

John

Your fitter is probably right. A lot of people skate with pain in new boots and it eventually goes away. Try taking two advil an hour before you skate and see if that reduces it.

[irenar5]

Plushenko's coach, Alexei Mishin, reportedly, cuts off some of the height of the heel and makes the boot flatter for his students.  I looked at the photos of Plushenko's skates- the heels do look a little lower that other skaters' boots, but they are not flat.

I am not sure you can skate in an entirely flat boot- the blades are designed with a rocker under your ball and if the ball's weight is somewhere else, then the blade may not function the way it is supposed to. 

Riedell is not particularly known for their custom boots, but their customer service is great.  I would ask if they could lower the heel as much as possible.
Also, I would get another podiatrist's opinion (or two), preferably the ones that have some experience with figure skaters. Perhaps you can contact this guy- (he writes for the Skating magazine) and ask his opinion:    http://www.askmredge.com/

Besides, you have not even mounted the blades, let alone skated in the boots!  They do not fit the same when there is a blade on them.  There is always an adjustment period for boots with pain involved. 
Before you give up the idea of skating altogether, I would also check with Harlick and ask their opinion.  They can make boots with allowance for orthotics, too.

It sounds like the fitter did a poor job all around.  Hopefully you can figure it out!

[nicklaszlo]

On the brighter side, I tried my old inline skates on and they fit perfectly (no high heel).

My inline skates are not much at all like figure skates.  They are more like speed skates, which are flat.

[sarahspins]

I would also check with Harlick and ask their opinion.  They can make boots with allowance for orthotics, too.

It sounds like the fitter did a poor job all around.  Hopefully you can figure it out!

I second all of this... if Riedell or your fitter can't ultimately solve the boot/fit problems, you shouldn't be out for the cost of the boots if they just aren't going to work for you.  If you have a specific othopedic problem that needs accommodating, that needs to be brought to the attention of both the fitter (whomever you use, not just the one you've been dealing with) as well as the boot maker.  If a custom orthotic could help with the positioning of your foot in the skate, then your podiatrist or orthotist should be brought into the loop as well.  Plenty of people skate successfully with a number or orthopedic issues in their feet and ankles - there's no reason a solution can't be found for you as well.

[Query]

I am not sure you can skate in an entirely flat boot- the blades are designed with a rocker under your ball and if the ball's weight is somewhere else, then the blade may not function the way it is supposed to. 

Some of my coaches have advocated that one skate most of the time with weight over the ball. Others have advocated over the center of the skate - or a little forwards of the center when skating forwards, but backwards of it when skating backwards. Maybe he could have a discussion with his coach, to see if the coach can adapt style to the student's needs.

On top of that, blades can be changed too.

What might be more relevant, depending on the student's goals, is that current figure skating standards emphasize skating styles of skating in which balance is held forwards during many tricks.

Besides, he isn't actually saying he can't have any heel elevation at all. E.g., most beginner skates have relatively small heel elevations.

The ballerina who wanted a flat foot bed may have been a very special case - and I don't know whether that there was a net forwards slant to that foot bed. After all, ballerinas fully point their feet.