freestyle rules question

[falen]

Hi,
I have a quick question.  My dd went on a freestyle session.  We usually do not go at this time, but it was convenient so we went.  It was definitely a freestyle, not freestyle/dance.  But apparently 2 solo dancers are regulars at that time.  The rest of the 10-12 skaters were freestyle skaters.  Well my dd was spinning in the middle as was another skater and this one dancer was practicing her dancing without music and not in a lesson.   Her pattern apparently crossed where dd was spinning.  She had a FIT.  Came screaming off the ice saying "That stupid little girl was spinning in MY SPOT.  EVERYONE KNOWS THAT IS MYYYYYY SPOT" then she strung obscenities after that.  Now I do not know the dance rules so please let me know.

[Landing~Lutzes]

At my rink, if someone is in a spin, you yield to them. However, if you see a dancer (even a solo dancer) working on a pattern and coming towards you, then you should yield to them. I do solo dance, and find that most people don't yield to me at all...in a lesson, with music, nothing (until a coach says something or I yell "excuse me"). I don't think freestyle skaters always understand that for a dancer, our pattern dances are our programs and should be treated as if we are running through any other program.

I don't think your daughter did anything wrong, she was in a spin and spinning in right correct spot. Sounds like the dancer was a) being obnoxious or b) very frustrated!

Hope this helps some!

[jjane45]

Your girl did not do anything wrong. Weird for a dancer to consider a spot as her own, because well, that would cover a lot of area for pattern dances lol.

But as Landing~Lutzes said, dancers have little flexibility in pattern and would always appreciate yielding if possible.

[Clarice]

Sounds like the dancer was being obnoxious.  It would have been pretty easy for her to politely say to your daughter "Excuse me, but my pattern needs to go right through there.  Could you move your spin practice over there? (indicate spot) Thanks!" 

Also, it's perfectly possible to practice dances in segments (I've done it on studio rinks).  The only time we dancers are "on program" is when our music is playing, same as anybody else.  And then we should be treated like any other freestyle skater, in terms of waiting our turn to have our music announced (if that's being done on the session), wearing an orange belt if those are used, not playing our music over and over, etc.

[falen]

whenever dd hears a dance music (for some reason it is always the same no matter who is dancing, she gets off, because she says she never knows when they are going to come right at her).   So I kind of get why people don't yield, some might not know where to go.  In the beginning dd would turn to move away and it ended being even more in the way, so she just goes off and takes a water break.  But she had no music playing.     I am glad she was not doing anything wrong. 

[Landing~Lutzes]

While there usually isn't too much "wiggle room" for dance patterns, I think a polite excuse me can go a long way! If I say excuse me, most skaters will get out of my way. If not, they usually get barked at by a coach. I don't think  there is ever an excuse for getting all huffy-puffy on the ice ;-)

[amy1984]

If you can, you should yield.  But if your DD doesn't know the pattern, or was spinning, or whatever, then it's up to the dancer to watch out.  It really is a joint effort.  Ice dance patterns are set patters, but to say you couldn't move two feet is absolutely ridiculous.  I dance on busy sessions all the time and I manage to practice   Some kids are just mean and rude, especially when they're in an individual sport that becomes all about them.  I once saw a skate flinging meltdown started because a special Olympian was inadvertently in the way.  And the mother tolerated it.  It was completely ridiculous.  However, these kids are rare and most of the kids who skate keep their eyes open and take responsibility for themselves and are great kids.  If you run into one of the bad ones, well, just forget about it.

[AgnesNitt]

I agree with everyone else.
a. the solo dancer is wrong on two counts. She should have askd your daughter to move. However, dance patterns aren't THAT in flexible.  Secondly  Obscenities aren't allowed at any freestyle I've ever attended (other than one word ones that 'just happen').
b.HOWVER, if your dd was one of those girls who park is one spot to spin for like 5 to 10 minutes that's wrong too. 

So, I think you have a case to take to the skating director about the obscenities. However, You and your dd coach need to make sure your dd knows not to park/camp out/hog the ice to practice her spins. If her coach and you had talked to your dd about parking, you should mention that to the SD  and then emphasize the obscenities as an issue.

[AgnesNitt]

PS I want to add, that I was on a freestyle on lesson where another skater came so close to me that he actually hit my butt with his hand. And not in a friendly "hi, how ya doin'" way. It was clearly an accident. So that happens because he was way too close. My coach gasped when he went past.
Anyway, the whole thing was dealt with at a coach to coach level, so that's also a possibility for you
 

[Kitten23]

I'm sorry this happened to your daughter.  I skate freestyle/dance sessions.  When I'm spinning, I really can't tell who is around me, that 's why if you're spinning, you have the right of way.  I know dance patterns are not flexible; I skate with enough dancers to know that (and recently learned the Dutch Waltz), but that dancer should have yielded to your daughter.

If the dancer lets loose another string of obscenities, you should report her to the office and have her removed from the sessions, permanently. 

[sarahspins]

If a skater behaved that way at my rink they would be asked not to return for a set amount of time - it's inexcusable and poor sportsmanship, and not tolerated.

As far as freestyle right of way - I tend to yield to anyone who looks like they are doing something in a pattern (dance, moves, footwork sequence), anyone in a lesson, and anyone doing a program run-through - that still leaves lots of usable ice.

[PinkLaces]

My Daughter does mostly dance and sometimes gets frustrated  when she can't get her patterns in. BUT she would never act that way.  That's not acceptable.

whenever dd hears a dance music (for some reason it is always the same no matter who is dancing, she gets off, because she says she never knows when they are going to come right at her).   So I kind of get why people don't yield, some might not know where to go.  In the beginning dd would turn to move away and it ended being even more in the way, so she just goes off and takes a water break.  But she had no music playing.     I am glad she was not doing anything wrong. 

If dance music is being played, skaters should yield like they would to a skater in a program. The songs that are the same are the same dance (same pattern). Unless you daughter is pretty young, she could move to the side board and watch where the pattern goes when the music comes on. Then she could feel more confident when skaters are doing dance.

[CaraSkates]

It does sometimes get frustrating to try and fit dance patterns in, especially on busy sessions. My rink uses program vests (obnoxiously colored things) on sessions with more then 10 ppl or anytime we have a bunch of visiting skaters. Dances to music (with the vest!) have right of way, just like a freestyle skater with the vest on. I personally find it hardest to fit in MIF since there is no music and you only get right of way in a lesson!

I agree with some of the others - dance can be intimidating at first, especially if there are gold or international level dances being practiced! I think it helps to get familiar with some of the low level patterns/music - just like becoming familiar with other skaters programs at the rink.

[sampaguita]

I don't really know the culture in freestyle sessions, so I can't really comment on who's to blame (I don't think obscenities should be tolerated, though). However, dance patterns are pretty regular, so if the solo dancer is doing compulsory patterns (not free dance), it's pretty easy to spot where they'll be at any given time. Ice dance doesn't exactly use the entire ice -- there'll be pockets of ice that they won't be using, so for spins, maybe she can use those spots to practice.

[Doubletoe]

Your daughter should do her best to watch the dancer and figure out the lobes of her dances so she can stay out of the way.  She should also make sure she isn't spinning in the same spot over and over (not just for the ice dancer, but also for the sake of the freestyle skaters who need to skate through the middle of the rink).  Having said that, I think the ice dancer was completely off base reacting with that level of drama,seeing as she did not have her music playing.

[AgnesNitt]

And now that I think about it, the session was a freestyle session, NOT a dance session, so freestyle rules, not dance rules. Some rinks even have rules about Moves on freestyle because , like dance, they're a fixed pattern and skaters in moves don't want to yieildi to others because of their patterns. Freestyle can't operate without yielding.

I know several people have posted about how fixed dance patterns are. So, I'm not a senior ice dancer, I'm not working on my gold dances. But I've seen plenty of ice dancers working on gold dance who work around other skaters during freestyle.  Dance patterns are fixed in tests, but in practice you have,to.yield on freestyle. It's A FREESTYLE session, NOT A FREE FOR ALL session.

We're going to see more and more stuff about more and more things being shoved into freestyle: Moves, partnered dance, solo dance, and fewer and fewer hours of freestyle for people to skate in.  USFSA spends too much time thinking about 'the sport of figure skating', and really needs to think about how the rinks can accommodate skating as well.  Figure skating is a sport, but running the rink is a business. The two have to co-exist for the sport to survive. Sadly, I see more and more rinks that are all hockey, because figure skating is too much trouble.

[sarahspins]

USFSA spends too much time thinking about 'the sport of figure skating', and really needs to think about how the rinks can accommodate skating as well.  Figure skating is a sport, but running the rink is a business. The two have to co-exist for the sport to survive. Sadly, I see more and more rinks that are all hockey, because figure skating is too much trouble.

I agree, but I also don't think it's really fair to blame USFSA for that one.. they're not the ones running the rinks, and bottom line is that hockey brings in more money on a consistent basis than figure skating can or does.  A full freestyle session is lucky to pull in $300 an hour (and most aren't full).  Hockey will pay $450 for that same hour and they'll pay in advance.

I think that if they could bring in enough hockey skaters early in the morning we'd have no freestyles at all at our rink.  There are currently only two evening freestyles and hockey has been threatening to buy out one of them for more than a year - it's to the point where the skating director has some up with all kinds of special handling for that one session so that it's making money and paid for in advance (the equivalent of what the rink would get if they sold the session to hockey).  That one session costs more for 45 minutes than any other freestyle session (so that it "makes" the same $450 they could charge the hockey league), and if you want to skate it, you have to pre-pay for 3 full months of it, you can't use your normal punch card or freestyle contract.  It's a huge headache.

[Landing~Lutzes]

And now that I think about it, the session was a freestyle session, NOT a dance session, so freestyle rules, not dance rules. Some rinks even have rules about Moves on freestyle because , like dance, they're a fixed pattern and skaters in moves don't want to yieildi to others because of their patterns. Freestyle can't operate without yielding.

At my rink, all we have is a freestyle session...in fact, I'm the only one in my club working on dances! I think in general, dance should be treated like freestyle. Just because there aren't jumps and spins in patterns doesn't make it any less important than freestyle. I expect freestyle skaters to give me the same amount of respect and decency that I give them. If they absolutely can't yield to me at all, I understand. If I'm in a lesson or running through a dance with my music, I expect them to try to yield, just as I would to them. I don't think dancers should get special treatment because the patterns are fixed, but at the same time I don't expect freestyle skaters to get special treatment because they are jumping and spinning and I'm not. My biggest peeve is when girls at the rink ask why they should yield to me because I'm not jumping or spinning...I even had one of the younger girls tell me my dances don't count as "programs". Honestly, I think it's a matter of just being courteous and respectful to all skater no matter what they are doing.