Petition to award Dennis Ten a Retro Gold Medal

[Isk8NYC]

This was an interesting article about an online petition.  The petition argues that Patrick Chan's PCS marks were unfairly inflated during the recent World Championships and therefore, Dennis Ten should be awarded a gold medal for his performance.

http://www.examiner.com/article/petition-asks-that-figure-skater-denis-ten-be-awarded-a-retroactive-gold-medal

[sampaguita]

The difference between Ten and Chan was just a little more than 1 point, and had Denis Ten done all his jumps perfectly (he doubled his flip), he would have won the gold.

And Patrick's SP was exquisite. The Worlds is a 2-part event, people can't just look at the FS and say that Denis Ten was robbed. 98 for me was well-deserved for the SP.

Denis Ten won the freeskate by a 5-pt margin, being 2pts lower than Chan in PCS. Patrick Chan won the SP by a 7-pt margin. I don't see anything wrong with the judging. People should really look at the protocol before making any judgments. Once they know how the event was scored, THEN they can complain.

The author also argues

The flaws and falls distract from the artistic value of the performance. Yet Chan received higher scores for program execution than Ten, who was flawless — including an incredible mark of 9.5! He also got a 9.75 for transitions. What would the judges have awarded Chan had he actually skated a clean program?

Does she even know what the judges look for in "transitions"?

[Skittl1321]

I wish Ten would have won, but he DID win the free, and he did recieve a small gold medal for that.

[moment of inertia]

I don't see anything wrong with the judging. People should really look at the protocol before making any judgments. Once they know how the event was scored, THEN they can complain.

This is really the crux of the problem--most people have no idea how the scoring system works or any concept of what makes some elements more difficult (and, therefore, worth more points) than others, and make snap judgments based on how clean the program is. A while ago on YouTube I found an uploader who had taken a few programs (they were Japanese men from the 2011-2012 season, IIRC, but I'm having trouble finding them now) and had added subtitles of the judges' scores for each element as it was being performed. Since so many competitions are tape-delayed anyway, I really wish the actual networks would do something similar so people could learn something about the sport and stop having to rely on the commentators to understand why clean programs don't always beat programs with a fall.

[icedancer]

I watched both FS programs casually and I have to say that although Patrick fumbled a LOT his first three jump passes were clean - and superbly, technically done. 

Dennis Ten has the goods but his jump landings - he doesn't hold them AT ALL and his skating skills are nowhere near Patricks.

He may have won the technical and therefore the FS but if he had not been behind by at least 8 points in the SP he may have won.

People will always complain LOL

[Query]

NBC (the broadcast network - I don't get NBC Universal Sports) did sort of explain what Chan did right. He said he gets an extra 15 points or so because he does basic skating skills nicely.

(1) AFAICT, his back stayed almost perfectly straight throughout the entire skate. He only rotated and twisted at and below the waist and in the neck. The main torso didn't flex significantly forward or back, or sideways, nor did it twist significantly - all issues which none of the other televised skaters could match. According to the TV sportscaster, a flat back is good.

(2) His edges were very deeply leaned. None of the other televised skaters were as good in this.

(3) His knees bent very deeply. None of the other televised skaters were as good in this.

(4) He accelerates up to speed very quickly.

I'm no expert, but I tried to compare these issues in all the televised skating performances, which included the several top male and female freestyle skaters, and the top American Dance couple. Second to Chan in all these basic areas was Ashley Wagner. [BTW, she maintained the flat back most of the time, except when doing flexibility moves. Chan didn't do any major flexibility moves.] [BTW, I didn't compare (4) very carefully, so am not sure that Chan was really better in this.]

The television audience largely ignores these basic skating skills. It's all in the falls and jumps.

I'm not competent to determine whether or not the skaters were scored and ranked appropriately. I was honestly surprised that Chan won, but I don't really understand how judging works.

But it is nice to see Chan and Wagner paying attention to some of the basic things that coaches drilled into me at at much lower skating levels.

[The sportscaster also mentioned that Chan had great flow transitioning between a couple moves, but I don't fully understand what that means, and couldn't compare.]

[AgnesNitt]

Ten is probably embarrassed by the petition.

[icedancer]

Ten is probably embarrassed by the petition.

And it looked to me like he was VERY happy with the Silver!

[sarahspins]

Ten is probably embarrassed by the petition.

I don't know that he is or that he should be - while I don't personally feel like the petition is appropriate, in his position he might feel honored that his fans are so supportive of his skating and of his performance at worlds - there really isn't any shame in that.

[jjane45]

Going against the tide here. If the same skaters skate the same programs in the exact same way, to the same judging panel in Sochi Olympics, I bet the scoring will be different. That's what is wrong.

[sampaguita]

Going against the tide here. If the same skaters skate the same programs in the exact same way, to the same judging panel in Sochi Olympics, I bet the scoring will be different. That's what is wrong.

Why?

[jjane45]

Performances with multiple obvious major mistakes will not win over almost clean performances executed at similar technical / artistic level, not when figure skating is broadcasted to the whole world in prime time (vs. hidden behind Latvian web TV).

The judging system is not perfect and continues to evolve. IMO its execution is a bigger problem. Skating should be judged based on actual performances alone, not to be influenced by undue factors such as skating order, reputation, pecking order, home inflation etc.

[Query]

Sportscasters frequently mention that the judging system rewards quads with complete rotation, but with a fall, more than it rewards perfectly landed triples.

Was that a factor here?

From the point of view of a retroactive petition, the question shouldn't be whether you agree with the parameters of the current judging system. It is only whether the judges followed the system they were supposed to. Just like there were people who felt that no man should have been able to win the last Olymipcs without a quad, yet one did - so they changed the rules, but kept the winner.

[sarahspins]

Sportscasters frequently mention that the judging system rewards quads with complete rotation, but with a fall, more than it rewards perfectly landed triples.

Well of course, they raised the value on the quads to entice skaters to take more of a risk... but I'm not sure that a quad with a fall (when you consider the extra 1 point deduction if you hit the ice) is really worth more than a clean triple, but it could be close... however it seems that most quads with falls get UR calls, so you don't really get credit for that quad anyways.

[sampaguita]

Yup, I think so. In the past seasons, skaters have been playing it safe. For example, if you do a good double axel with a +3 GOE, that's going to be worth more than an underrotated 3A with -3 GOE. The scoring system has been revised to encourage skaters to risk doing more rotations by increasing the base value of quads and 3A. So, even if you get a negative GOE, you'd still be better off than playing it safe.

[Icicle]

In my opinion, more points should be taken off for a fall, not just one. If this were the case, Chan might not have won the worlds, and there would be no controversy. Don't take me wrong: I admire Patrick's skating skills. My coach explained to me once that what Patrick does requires a lot of effort. Maintaining good knee bend and perfect posture takes a lot out of a skater, and doing quads on top of that is extremely hard.  Still Chan's overall performance in the free program wasn't clean. If he didn't win all the time, his mindset would be to skate his programs without mistakes. The existing judging system however sends a wrong message to skaters, that Chan is absolutely invincible, that you can't beat him, no matter how many mistakes he makes.

[icedancer]

YOu know Denis Ten won the Free Skate right?  Patrick Chan was 2nd in the free but his short was so incredible that he had the most points overall...

[sampaguita]

In my opinion, more points should be taken off for a fall, not just one. If this were the case, Chan might not have won the worlds, and there would be no controversy. Don't take me wrong: I admire Patrick's skating skills. My coach explained to me once that what Patrick does requires a lot of effort. Maintaining good knee bend and perfect posture takes a lot out of a skater, and doing quads on top of that is extremely hard.  Still Chan's overall performance in the free program wasn't clean. If he didn't win all the time, his mindset would be to skate his programs without mistakes. The existing judging system however sends a wrong message to skaters, that Chan is absolutely invincible, that you can't beat him, no matter how many mistakes he makes.

Yeah, that's a suggestion the ISU must consider. What I can see though is that if this pushes through, we're going to see a lot of clean programs with less difficult elements. Some people will like it, and some people won't.

[Icicle]

Yeah, that's a suggestion the ISU must consider. What I can see though is that if this pushes through, we're going to see a lot of clean programs with less difficult elements. Some people will like it, and some people won't.

I agree, this may happen. Yet there'll always be skaters who will manage to skate even difficult programs clean.

[Query]

Evan Lysacek won the 2010 Olympics by playing it safe, without a single quad. Some people said that was wrong, but that it was in accordance with the rules of the day, just like they say Chan's recent Worlds win was in accordance with the rules of this day.

Changing the rules retroactively to meet manipulatable public opinion would turn ISU competitions into reality television.

OTOH, Figure Skating can survive a little controversy just fine.

[sampaguita]

OTOH, Figure Skating can survive a little controversy just fine.

Yup! Actually I really think Chan won the  Worlds fair and square. We can't always be changing the rules for the benefit of all those casual fans who just look at the number of falls.

[Isk8NYC]

Wow - they actually sent the petition to the ISU and IOC with over a thousand signatures.

http://www.examiner.com/article/petition-protesting-skating-results-sent-to-top-officials

[supra]

I didn't see this year's. I know last year's, Patrick Chan was really good. My sister really liked uh, that French skater, what's his name, with the Matrix routine. She thought Chan was boring. But apparently me being the only actual skater saw how nice Patrick's edging and flow was.

I should watch more actual pro skating.

[AgnesNitt]

I didn't see this year's. I know last year's, Patrick Chan was really good. My sister really liked uh, that French skater, what's his name, with the Matrix routine. She thought Chan was boring. But apparently me being the only actual skater saw how nice Patrick's edging and flow was.

I should watch more actual pro skating.

Joubert? 

[jjane45]

Joubert?

French + matrix