five months later, I realize I got the wrong blades...

[VAsk8r]

I got new skates about five months ago. The pro shop fitter recommended getting Jackson Premieres and Legacy blades, and I said, "OK, let's go with that." When I picked up my boots and blades, the person who'd fit me was on vacation, and the employee who was there wasn't the most attentive person. He handed me the box with the skates, the box with the blades, told me my balance, and that was it.

I noticed later the blades said "Elite" on the side but didn't think much about it. I assumed that was some manufacturing thing or the class of blades they were in, or something I didn't need to worry about it.

Well, today I saw isakswing's post about Legacy blades and realized that Elite is actually another, higher-level type of Jackson blade. I looked carefully at photos of both blades, and sure enough, I have Elite blades.

I'm landing single jumps through lutz and working on axel. I had a hard time breaking in the new skates, but that seemed more related to the boots than the blades. I was doing everything I could do before within about three weeks. I don't think I can blame any of my skating issues on my blades. I do tend to hit my toepick too much during spins and moves, but I've always had that issue.

I don't think I have the receipt anymore — once I'd broken in the skates, it seemed pointless to hold onto it. I don't know where things went wrong, but I have a sinking feeling I was charged for the Elite blades rather than the Legacys I thought I ordered. Hard to say, though. I paid for the skates in two separate payments, and the price did not jump out at me as being too high.

So are there any issues I should expect from having blades that are really too advanced for me? Are any other skaters at my level (working on bronze MITF and FS tests) using Elites?

I feel at this point it's water under the bridge. I probably wouldn't be able to return the blades even if I had the receipt. Just a warning to always check receipts and packaging VERY carefully!

[hopskipjump]

It would have been $50+ more.  That is a pretty big difference. 

[Skittl1321]

So are there any issues I should expect from having blades that are really too advanced for me?

Except maybe some toe pick scrapping, you should be fine.  Especially if you haven't had issues for 5 months...

I skated on Gold Seals just out of LTS.  They came on the boots I bought.  The main issue with 'over-blading' (once you can handle the toe pick) is that it is a waste of money.  I don't think it can hinder you the way over booting does.  But when FS1 skaters want to buy expensive blades, they are better off paying for lessons.  Skating in them isn't going to cause harm.  In fact, I found the Gold Seals were the easiest blade to turn on, of the 5 blades I've had.  Over-blading helped me in that respect.  The biggest issue is putting a basic skills skater in a high freestyle blade- it causes tons of face plants.

Hopefully you weren't charged for the wrong blades, but I don't think there is anything you can do about it now.

[Isk8NYC]

So very true.  I once went to buy one of my DDs a pair of skates at a pro shop some distance away.  She needed the boots ASAP and they had them in stock; our shop would have had to order them.  After he mounted the blades, he had her try on the boots.  Surprise!  The boots had been put back in the wrong box - he mounted the blades end-to-end on the wrong boots!  He saved the day by locating the correct boots in the other box and pulled/mounted the blades again.  I wonder what he did with the bladeless boots with holes in the soles, since they were closing out stock on figure skates?

Lesson learned:  Always try on boots before getting the blades mounted.

Today, I send myself an email or text message with the ordered size/width/model/etc. (For both our family skates and my students' orders.)  At delivery, I verify everything before they try on the boots. Mistakes can happen easily enough.  You have to be on guard.

[sarahspins]

I think elites are the pattern 99 clone.. and honestly at lutz/axel I don't think you are "over" bladed in those... we have lots of kids in LTS in FS3 and 4 who have Pattern 99's or Vision blades, which are very similar.  Most of the adults I know skate in pattern 99's and they're probably similar in level to you.  I skate in Phantoms which have pretty impressively large picks (though I have the Paramount version).

Honestly you are probably fine with those blades.. if you were stil in basic levels it might make more if a difference but once you are already spinning and jumping it really isn't as critical... except that you pay more for higher blades, of course, but it does come down to personal preference whether you'd like to stay with a lower level freestyle blade (like the legacy/professional/ace) or move up - there's no rule that says you can't or shouldn't.

[VAsk8r]

Yeah, I'm not concerned at this point. I do wish I could try the Legacys to see if my toepick-scrapying issues improve, but I had those issues even in my Mirage blades so I doubt there'd be a noticeable difference between the Elites and the Legacy. Anyway, I do have to admit I love the hardcore appearance of my toepicks!

I might be able to figure out which blades I paid for if I went back and looked at my bank account statements, but that would probably just depress me. It's too late now either way.

[AgnesNitt]

You can have the drop pick angled if it bothers you.

[icefrog]

Don't worry about it! At my rink most kids seems to get pattern 99s when they are working on axels or starting doubles.

[isakswings]

I got new skates about five months ago. The pro shop fitter recommended getting Jackson Premieres and Legacy blades, and I said, "OK, let's go with that." When I picked up my boots and blades, the person who'd fit me was on vacation, and the employee who was there wasn't the most attentive person. He handed me the box with the skates, the box with the blades, told me my balance, and that was it.

I noticed later the blades said "Elite" on the side but didn't think much about it. I assumed that was some manufacturing thing or the class of blades they were in, or something I didn't need to worry about it.

Well, today I saw isakswing's post about Legacy blades and realized that Elite is actually another, higher-level type of Jackson blade. I looked carefully at photos of both blades, and sure enough, I have Elite blades.

I'm landing single jumps through lutz and working on axel. I had a hard time breaking in the new skates, but that seemed more related to the boots than the blades. I was doing everything I could do before within about three weeks. I don't think I can blame any of my skating issues on my blades. I do tend to hit my toepick too much during spins and moves, but I've always had that issue.

I don't think I have the receipt anymore — once I'd broken in the skates, it seemed pointless to hold onto it. I don't know where things went wrong, but I have a sinking feeling I was charged for the Elite blades rather than the Legacys I thought I ordered. Hard to say, though. I paid for the skates in two separate payments, and the price did not jump out at me as being too high.

So are there any issues I should expect from having blades that are really too advanced for me? Are any other skaters at my level (working on bronze MITF and FS tests) using Elites?

I feel at this point it's water under the bridge. I probably wouldn't be able to return the blades even if I had the receipt. Just a warning to always check receipts and packaging VERY carefully!

I think you will be fine and I am also sorry my post started you worrying about this! Honestly, in the long run this might be better for you. As you advance, that toe pick will come in handy. There is a girl at our rink who skates pre-pre and is landing her axel and working on doubles. Anyway... she just moved into the same boot and blade combo. They are fine for her. I wouldn't worry too much about it. 

[Query]

I do wish I could try the Legacys to see if my toepick-scrapying issues improve, but I had those issues even in my Mirage blades so I doubt there'd be a noticeable difference between the Elites and the Legacy.

Some people with toepick scraping issues with Jackson Ultima blades, including me, have better luck with MK blades than Jackson Ultima blades, perhaps because you need a bigger angular change with most MKs to go from the sweet spot to the toe pick than with most Jackson Ultima blades. But they are more expensive. Besides, there are always trade-offs, and people disagree which shapes are best.

It is conceivable, but uncertain, that shifting the blade position forward or back, and/or playing with front-to-back relative shim could affect scraping, but there would be a lot of trial and error, and you'd have to drill more holes. I haven't played with that much myself, and can't advise. There must be a trade-off between not scraping, and doing good jumps and turns. Otherwise, we would all stay with beginner blades to get rid of toepick scrape.

Would your coach say that you should learn not to scrape, regardless of blade shape? 

LOL

[VAsk8r]

I think you will be fine and I am also sorry my post started you worrying about this! Honestly, in the long run this might be better for you.

No worries. Now I'm better informed!

Some people with toepick scraping issues with Jackson Ultima blades, including me, have better luck with MK blades than Jackson Ultima blades, perhaps because you need a bigger angular change with most MKs to go from the sweet spot to the toe pick than with most Jackson Ultima blades. But they are more expensive. Besides, there are always trade-offs, and people disagree which shapes are best.
...

Would your coach say that you should learn not to scrape, regardless of blade shape? 

Something to keep in mind the next time I need new blades (which will hopefully not be for years) but I think the better answer is to work on not scraping! My coach, other coaches and skaters, and I personally have all noticed improvement this year, which began before I got the new blades and has continued, so it's just something I need to keep working on.

[Query]

Positive spin:

Maybe the blades helped, and a price difference of about one lesson is surely worth it!

Maybe you were only charged for Legacy blades, and you got a really sweet deal.



(But I'm not suggesting you owe the store for the price difference.)

[ChristyRN]

Some people with toepick scraping issues with Jackson Ultima blades, including me, have better luck with MK blades than Jackson Ultima blades, perhaps because you need a bigger angular change with most MKs to go from the sweet spot to the toe pick than with most Jackson Ultima blades.

I have scrapey toe picks.  I'm on Jackson Matrix (standard with Competitor boot/blade combo) and just got a set of MK Pros this weekend. I hope to have them mounted this weekend.  Is there hope that I might stop scraping?

[AgnesNitt]

I have scrapey toe picks.  I'm on Jackson Matrix (standard with Competitor boot/blade combo) and just got a set of MK Pros this weekend. I hope to have them mounted this weekend.  Is there hope that I might stop scraping?

I made exactly the same change. It really worked out well for me. The extra curvature of the MK Pros (they're  ft rocker compared to Mirage 8 ft rocker) really helped.

[hopskipjump]

You all are freaking me out - dd is going from MK's to Jackson freestyle!

[Sk8tmum]

You all are freaking me out - dd is going from MK's to Jackson freestyle!

Jacksons markets these as a "MK Phantom" replacement/similar blade. So, you're looking at similarities.  What MK was she in? 

[Isk8NYC]

I made exactly the same change. It really worked out well for me. The extra curvature of the MK Pros (they're  ft rocker compared to Mirage 8 ft rocker) really helped.

I think you're on to something - the MK Professionals (and JW Coronation Ace) blades are a 7' rocker radius.
All Ultimas are 8' - that could cause the toepick dragging if the skater is off-balance or not strong enough to control the blade.

[hopskipjump]

mk professional.  she is going fro 7 to 8 ft rocker.

the mk pro is GREAT for her spins.  But the freestyle is supposed to be better for doubles.  I think she will go back to skating having her axel.

[sarahspins]

I made exactly the same change. It really worked out well for me. The extra curvature of the MK Pros (they're  ft rocker compared to Mirage 8 ft rocker) really helped.

Most of that difference is contained in the "spin rocker" which is the profile of the blade for the 3-4" before the picks.  That makes much more difference than the radius of the rest of the blade does (the difference in the contact area between 7' and 8' is really insignificant, but the differences in the spin rocker and the transition to the picks can be very dramatic between blade models).

I think toe scraping/dragging is a technique problem (like "spooning" on 3 turns caused from being too far up on the toe), not really a blade problem unless you are skating on older blades where the rocker profile has been changed after repeated sharpenings.  Apart from that scenario, a given blade won't necessarily make toe dragging worse any more than a different blade can magically 'fix' it.  What fixes it is practice and the confidence the really be "on" the blade, and not up on the ball of the foot riding the toes.

I went from MK Pro's to Phantoms once I was doing doubles as a teenager and I loved the difference with my phantoms - toe jumps felt much more secure and the side honing really gives more "bite" to the edges without requiring a deeper hollow, something I actually miss a little with my paramounts

[ChristyRN]

Part of my scraping is technique--I leaned forward the first two years I skated (I was trying to disguise the girls) and never completely relearned.  I struggle to stay off the picks.  Sometimes, simple back crossovers scrape, even when I feel like I'm sitting down on my heels.  I have a celebration party when I do things without scraping.

I am a noisy skater.  The first part of healing is admitting there is a problem. 

[AgnesNitt]

Most of that difference is contained in the "spin rocker" which is the profile of the blade for the 3-4" before the picks.  That makes much more difference than the radius of the rest of the blade does (the difference in the contact area between 7' and 8' is really insignificant, but the differences in the spin rocker and the transition to the picks can be very dramatic between blade models).

The difference between 8' and 7' may be insignificant in the contact area, but it completely changed the way I skate backwards. In the 8' rocker I was always catching my blade heel--which led to hunching from fear while going backwards. I'm hardly perfect now, but I don't catch the heel of the blade anymore, and I can skate backwards easily and with flow. It was a night and day issue. 8' rocker--going backwards terrifying. 7' rocker--skate without fear. I mean there wasn't even an adjustment time. It happened the first time I skated in them.

[sarahspins]

Agnes - some of that could be due to differences in stanchion height between blades, not just the rocker.  It could simply be a matter of being more comfortable on one blade vs another because it pitches your center of balance on the blade more forward rather than back.

[Query]

I wonder if the heel-rocker could be a factor.

Hockey skates have a visible "round-off" (smaller=more curved rocker radius) at both heel and toe. Many hockey skaters say this makes turning easier.

I measured the rocker profiles on a collection of MK blades that still had the factory edge, and they had a slightly smaller rocker radius behind the heel then on the main rocker, though that varied from blade to blade, and at different points along each blade.

I do not know whether that slight round-off at the tail is deliberate, or an accidental artifact of the way MK machines its blades, but the net affect is to create a very slight secondary sweet spot near the heel, that you might possibly be able to feel as a potential balance point, and also possibly to make it easier to do back-to-forward turns.

I measured only one pair of Ultima blades the same way. I don't think they had a different heel rocker, though it's been a while. If Ultima blades in general don't have the round-off, and MK do, that might help explain why they feel different at the heel.

But that's not a sufficient statistical sample on Ultima blades (shame on me!), so don't take this as necessarily correct. If you have a good skate shop with the rocker-measuring tools, you could try to get them to let you measure a collection of MK and Ultima blades yourself.

(Caution: the most common skate rocker radius measuring tool does not measure correctly if there are any scratches or bumps on the side of the blade, or if the edge width varies, as is true of parabolic and tapered blades, or if the blade is bent or twisted. That's because the tool doesn't measure at the edges or in the center, but measures a set offset inwards from the sides of the blades. So pick straight blades that are unscratched and are neither parabolic nor tapered.)

[AgnesNitt]

Agnes - some of that could be due to differences in stanchion height between blades, not just the rocker.  It could simply be a matter of being more comfortable on one blade vs another because it pitches your center of balance on the blade more forward rather than back.

That's an interesting point I hadn't considered. It's sad that skating is so traditional that there's really no scientific study about matching blades to the skater.

[kiwiskater]

That's an interesting point I hadn't considered. It's sad that skating is so traditional that there's really no scientific study about matching blades to the skater.

That's an interesting thought, what you need is commercial buy in to fund the research - its like my own thesis, gain a commercial edge by funding a student to do the work for you