judge favoritism -does it exist??

[jenniturtle]

I have heard of this but does it really exist?? opinions?? The judges that cover the competitions in my area are usually the same for most competitions. It seems that they tend to favor the students of certain coaches- say coaches that won medals. As many of you know my DD skates at a VERY small rink where the coach choices are slim to none. We could travel to the area that have bigger rinks and better coaches but they are about 2 hours away. the only day we could skate there would be the weekends where the BEST coaches would not be working. My dd skates on  a low level yet it is Very competitive. How can I expect her to succeed? I did not realize how political the whole thing is.

[Clarice]

I think there is such a thing as judge bias, but I don't think there's a lot of outright favoritism. By bias, I mean that a judge might value certain aspects of skating more than other aspects - maybe speed, maybe depth of edges, or musicality, etc.  If a judge has a bias for fast skating, for instance, and a particular coach consistently turns out fast skaters, that judge will tend to reward students of that coach.  It's not really a personal thing.  All judges want to see good skating, but just as different skaters excel in different aspects of the sport, different judges value some aspects over others.  At the lower levels, where the judges just have to place the skaters in order, their personal preferences can make a difference if all other things are relatively equal.  If a coach is consistently turning out winning students, it's more likely because they're teaching them to do things the judges like to see, not because they themselves once won a lot of medals.  It's not important that a coach was a former champion, but it is important that they know good technique and can pass those skills on effectively.

[hopskipjump]

By bias, I mean that a judge might value certain aspects of skating more than other aspects - maybe speed, maybe depth of edges, or musicality, etc.  If a judge has a bias for fast skating, for instance, and a particular coach consistently turns out fast skaters, that judge will tend to reward students of that coach.  It's not really a personal thing.

I totally agree. 

[sarahspins]

I agree as well.. I think judges often have bias for what they are looking for in a skater (maybe it's speed, edgework, carriage, connections, etc), which can translate into certain coaches turning out more skaters that "fit" those things the judges are looking for, but it's certainly not a bias towards the individual coach(es) in that case, it has more to do with the type of skaters they tend to produce.

Not to say that some favoritism doesn't exist, but I don't think it tends to be along the lines of inflating the scores of one coach's skaters... favoritism would be more like judges consistently placing a certain skater 1st when their performance doesn't always reflect that placement over the rest of the field.

It's also possible, that if you aren't a skater, the judges are looking at and judging things that you may not even be aware of.

[Sk8tmum]

It is absolutely favoritism in terms of judges, like all of us, have their preferences. A judge who favors a particular quality in a skater will tend to place skaters with that quality higher than skaters without it. Some judges are also more rigorous on pre-rotation and other types of cheats (and YES they are calling pre-rotations as cheats); are pickier on proper layback or sit position; etc. Others may put more emphasis on arm position in step sequences; etc etc etc. Which is why we have judging panels instead of just one person!

In terms of evaluated tests, etc, I know that our coaches check to see who the evaulator is/tech rep and referee are, and alter the skater's performance and presentation to match the preferences of that particular judge/evaluator/official. If they know the tech rep is one who only counts spin revs when teh position is fully assumed, they tell the skater to add an additional rev in; if the evaluator tends to expect all arabesques to look like "so" then arabesques will be practiced to perfection. Now, if your coach always teaches arabesques beautifully, then, in likelihood, your coach's skaters will be placed higher than others on a consistent basis in front of those judges. So, judge/coach style congruity comes into play.

That being said: can one skater get the benefit of the doubt? ABSOLUTELY. When a skater has a rep as a "strong skater" who lands "clean jumps" then the judge may be more likely to give him/her the benefit of the doubt in the question of a cheat vs no cheat, so, that reputation may bump the placement a bit.

[techskater]

By bias, I mean that a judge might value certain aspects of skating more than other aspects - maybe speed, maybe depth of edges, or musicality, etc.  If a judge has a bias for fast skating, for instance, and a particular coach consistently turns out fast skaters, that judge will tend to reward students of that coach.  It's not really a personal thing.  All judges want to see good skating, but just as different skaters excel in different aspects of the sport, different judges value some aspects over others.  At the lower levels, where the judges just have to place the skaters in order, their personal preferences can make a difference if all other things are relatively equal.  If a coach is consistently turning out winning students, it's more likely because they're teaching them to do things the judges like to see.

This is SO true.  A judge explained best when she said consider each aspect of skating like a different piece of fruit. Each judge has their preference for a different type of fruit (some like oranges best, others apples, some bananas, and still others pineapples) and so the more types of fruit you can present, the more likely your skating will appeal to multiple judges and therefore score high fom multiple judges

[nicklaszlo]

In terms of evaluated tests, etc, I know that our coaches check to see who the evaulator is

Is that usually public information?  In the past, I haven't found out who the judge was until I showed up at the test session.  And even then, I think I only knew because one of the six judges asked to test the adults.

[jjane45]

7 or 8 10 (!!) judges were listed in the schedule for my upcoming test, I would not know who is judging what though...

...so the more types of fruit you can present, the more likely your skating will appeal to multiple judges and therefore score high fom multiple judges

all around skater, that is!

[Sk8tmum]

Is that usually public information?  In the past, I haven't found out who the judge was until I showed up at the test session.  And even then, I think I only knew because one of the six judges asked to test the adults.

It depends.  Remember, I'm Canadian.  The test chair knows as soon as the judges are assigned; some tell the coaches, some don't, it depends on the chair. Then, there's Facebook updates, twitter, people who know each other, etc.  Small community, skating, even in the big regions.  Everyone knows everyone ... 

[Sk8Dreams]

Of course there is favoritism.  Judges are people, and there are people with poor ethical judgement everywhere.  This does not mean you will necessarily run into them, but my personal experience (not speaking of myself or my family, or even my students) is that skating is full of them. 

The last episode I witnessed was one in which the test chair tested, and passed Bronze MIF.  Myself and another coach looking on were aghast, because this test was so far from passing that it was a no-brainer.  Later, in the same test session, another adult skater failed Silver MIF.  Her skate was definitely borderline, and had the judges given her a fraction of the leeway they gave the test chair, she would have passed with flying colors.  Had that skater seen the test chair's skate, she would have been very upset.

[Query]

May not answer your question, but politics and favoritism by judges makes skating movies a lot more fun! 

Ditto for remarks by TV commentators who happen to disagree with what the judges have done.

---

I'm not a very good skater but:

It is obviously easier for a coach who skates where the judges skate and interacts with them, and who is conveniently located to attend many test sessions, to figure out judges' preferences. Also easier for a coach who was himself or herself a very good skater. Of course their students do better, by any standard, especially by the local judges' standards.

E.g., virtually all the top skaters take from one of less than a dozen elite coaches.

I think it makes more sense for most skaters to focus on having fun, instead of on winning top competitions.

On the other hand, if your DD studies hard, the career success rate is so much higher in engineering, law, computer science, or one of the skilled trades. Career and fun don't have to be the same thing.

[skatingmum2]

Not really favouritism per say but my daughter has the idea at competitions (and starting to agree with her) of which judges consistently seem to place her better and which ones don't and that does seem to  be the case. Funnily for IJS as well as 6.0 competitions. Mind you she has come 3,3,4,6,17 in a competition and 1, 2, 3, 3, 11 in another (6.0 system) and once had the same element marked +1, 0, 0, -3 (for grade of execution).

She is a former ice dancer turned free skater and the ones who seem to place her higher (I think) are those that judge dance and free  other than the infamous man who placed her 17th who placed her badly in both former ice dance competitions as well as free ones.

Son recently did a 6.0 competition - did elements well (clean jumps, landed well, good height and centred spins) and edgework thought to be good (some harder turns). Not the fanciest program (no tricks and he didn't have that many arms) and he didn't do any eye contact or smiles and was placed lower than some other kids with slightly messier jumps and spins..... Guess they want the full package.

[VAsk8r]

What about ISI competitions, where skaters may be judged by their own coaches? This has happened to me before. Seems like there are three possible scenarios:
1. Coaches can be so conscientious that they'll look like they're favoring their students that they overcompensate and are harsher on their students
2. Coaches know what the student is capable of, so they score based on that instead of what a neutral judge would give -- i.e., the student's axel isn't quite as good as another skater's, but it's the best one the coach has ever seen her student do
3. Coaches want to be able to claim their students did well, so they are a little more lenient.

Also, are USFS judges allowed to judge students they know from their own rinks? Seems like something similar could happen, especially in a borderline testing situation when the judge knows the student has worked very hard on the test and can do better.

[icedancer]

Also, are USFS judges allowed to judge students they know from their own rinks? Seems like something similar could happen, especially in a borderline testing situation when the judge knows the student has worked very hard on the test and can do better.

Definitely yes.  This is probably one of the hardest things about judging!  I live in a small area and there are 4 rinks.  I don't know EVERYBODY but at this point I am familiar with many of the skaters and most of the coaches and have skated on the same ice with them.  So yes, we do judge people that we know and some of the people we know very well - like other adult skaters!

We are allowed to give critiques to skaters before they test - and this is something I enjoy very much because often I am right there on the ice with them and I can see the problems and maybe articulate it in a different way than the coach and/or I will say the EXACT same thing as the coach (mostly with no prompting from the coach) and then the coach will say, "See?  I've been telling you that..."

BUT if we have given a critique in the two weeks before the test then we are obliged to not judge that skater.  If I see a skater a couple of weeks before the test and I know they are testing I will try my best not to watch them because I don't want to pre-judge them.  I don't want to know what the problems were a week before the test because I am hopeful that those problems will not exist on test day. 

You never know what is going to happen on a test.  Some skaters get energized by the whole process and skate better than they do in practice.  (I am like this myself - surprising myself most of the time!) - other skaters... well, maybe they leave their best skating on the practices.  So you just try to judge the test that is in front of you.

It is the very hardest to judge your friends because you know them so well.  But it must be done - but if there are enough judges you have the option to recuse yourself from the test.  You just try to be fair to the skater and judge them as though you had never seen them skate before.

It is also fun to judge someone who is skating great because you really enjoy watching them skate a great test and it is even better because you know them!

[sarahspins]

Also, are USFS judges allowed to judge students they know from their own rinks?

Yes... I even skate regularly with the judge who did mine last week

[Skittl1321]

What about ISI competitions, where skaters may be judged by their own coaches? This has happened to me before. Seems like there are three possible scenarios:
1. Coaches can be so conscientious that they'll look like they're favoring their students that they overcompensate and are harsher on their students
2. Coaches know what the student is capable of, so they score based on that instead of what a neutral judge would give -- i.e., the student's axel isn't quite as good as another skater's, but it's the best one the coach has ever seen her student do
3. Coaches want to be able to claim their students did well, so they are a little more lenient.

I think you forgot scenario 4) Coach scores the elements each skater does that day against the ISI standard for what the element should look like.

ISI's theory is that a teacher must grade their own students, and so a coach may have to too- they do encourage competitions to organize themselves in such a way that coaches don't need to judge their own students, if possible (not to mention, a coach having to judge means they then can't put their students on the ice.)

For ISI, each judge only judges one or two things- they don't do an overall score like USFSA does.  For example, I've judged before and I was in charge (for one level) of "waltz jump" and "timing".  That was ALL I looked for in the program.  It makes it easier for a coach not to favor/judge harshly their own students, because you aren't having to rank everything the skaters do against everything all the other skaters do.  I only have to decide how the waltz jumps were against the standard of the waltz jump.  (I always get timing because I'm the least experienced judge. That's a hard one to mess up.)  I don't know if this way of judging changes at higher levels, but I know it is used for synchro, because our coach judged and she said she was required to look at "block" and that was it.

[PinkLaces]

As a former test chair, I know most of the judges in my area.  There is one judge who I have a pretty good relationship with, always super friendly to me, etc.  She hasn't passed my DD on a test since her Bronze dances.  Luckily, you need 3 judges and she has been passed by the other 2 judges on the same tests.  In fact, DD just took her Juvenile FS.  The other 2 passed her but this judge did not.  Even scored her 2.9 on the presentation which is usually my DD's strong point.  When DD showed me her test paper, we just laughed. For some reason, she doesn't like my DD's skating. 

[dak_rbb]

I have heard of this but does it really exist?? opinions?? The judges that cover the competitions in my area are usually the same for most competitions. It seems that they tend to favor the students of certain coaches- say coaches that won medals... My dd skates on  a low level yet it is Very competitive. How can I expect her to succeed? I did not realize how political the whole thing is.

In practice I haven't noticed any obvious favoritism in our area at least.  When watching an event, I can usually easily identify the top four and sometimes can pretty much predict the standings.  Individual placements in 6.0 can be crazy sometimes, but the overall placements usually make sense. I also think that the best skaters will tend to gravitate toward the most successful coaches so you could end up with a coach who appears to be favored.  I also know from dd's testing and competition results that judges are individuals with individual preferences in style (e.g. fast powerful skating vs. neat, careful skating, etc.).  

The one time I wondered about this was at an out of town competition where one judge seemed to favor local skaters in direct contrast to the other judges. But, who knows, perhaps it was some local style thing. I'm not going to worry about it.

...My dd skates on  a low level yet it is Very competitive. How can I expect her to succeed? I did not realize how political the whole thing is.

Even if it is very political, this depends on your definition of success.  And over time, skater "success" placement-wise changes.  Some skaters who did very well under 6.0 are suddenly not doing so well with IJS and vice-versa.

[nicklaszlo]

I suspect some coaches love to say judges make decisions based on something other than the quality of the performance, because then a poor competition result will be blamed on the judges instead of the coach.

[Sk8tmum]

I suspect some coaches love to say judges make decisions based on something other than the quality of the performance, because then a poor competition result will be blamed on the judges instead of the coach.

:worthy :worthy :worthy :worthy

[skatingmum2]

From my point of view (very non-knowledgable parent) the only bit I battle with is such a lack of discrepancy between different judges but would guess skating is an art form which we are trying to reduce to something that is competitive...