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Author Topic: Off ice jumps  (Read 6878 times)

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Offline jjane45

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Off ice jumps
« on: September 11, 2010, 10:48:15 PM »
Is it advisable to start off-ice practices before actually learning them on-ice? If so, what is the logical progression?

Certain jumps (like waltz or loop) are easier to do off-ice, while others (salchow or flip) are harder. What are the trade-offs in simulating them? Any advices on shock-absorption?

In my skating clinic this summer the off-ice jumps portion consisted of the following:
- standing on the floor, feet shoulder width apart, slowly raise heels up and down
- quickly raise heels up and down
- jump straight up and land in the same spot
- jump straight up and turn half revolution in the air, land in the same spot facing the opposite direction
- focus on doing multiples of 1/2 revolution each time, not 1/4, not 1/3. Training muscle memory to avoid over/underrotation, I suppose...

There must a good amount information in the archive, I just thought it would be nice to have references in the off-ice training forum too!

Your thoughts are really appreciated!

Offline Nate

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 06:18:20 AM »
Yes, you should be able to do jumps off ice before you even attempt them on-ice.

There are coaches that won't even teach an on-ice Axel until the skater can do them easily off-ice.

You can probably get away without doing them in any hardcore fashion for anything under an axel, but it's a good habit to have, and a good training aid - especially when you work with a coach off-ice as well...

And the drill you mention is quite common.  I think most coaches (at least the ones who do off-ice) use it.

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2010, 08:11:22 PM »
I think that at least the Waltz and Loop jumps should be learned off-ice first.  The Waltz is easier to teach and perform off-ice.  On the other hand, I think the loop is more difficult to do off-ice, but easier to supervise and correct.  The results are better checking, stronger knee strength/timing and a good feel for the one-sided rotation of the jump.
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Offline jjane45

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2010, 10:58:21 PM »
(may I ask how to do loops off-ice, please? :sweat)

Offline Isk8NYC

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2010, 11:16:11 PM »
You stand on your takeoff foot (CCW=Right), check to that side with the free foot in front.

I have skaters do a few knee bends until they can hold the upper body check and the free foot in place without too much wobbling. 

Then, they the flex/down on the knee and pop UP! without any rotation, landing in the same spot.  Very few get a lot of height, so there's no real hop out needed initially. 

I have them lift the thigh on the "takeoff" and try to cross their ankles in the air - again, strt with no rotation because this really builds strength and control more than rotation.  Strength and control are key components without which rotation is useless because they'll pop the jump.

Then add a 1/4 turn, 1/2 turn+hop out landing, full turn+hop out landing ... all with the checked upper body and the free foot in front.
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Offline jjane45

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 10:07:32 PM »
Much, much appreciated!

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2010, 09:09:55 AM »
Yes, you should be able to do jumps off ice before you even attempt them on-ice.

There are coaches that won't even teach an on-ice Axel until the skater can do them easily off-ice.

I'd respectfully disagree on the use of trying to teach a picking jump off-ice first...
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Offline jjane45

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2010, 06:59:59 PM »
More homework on the topic indicates off-ice jumps must be approached with caution.

I'd imagine jumping in bare feet could easily sprain an ankle, or jumping on concrete may be too harsh on the knee.

Titbits of information gathered from the old forum suggest:

- Wear athletic shoes with good support
- Hopping backward on landing / or land on two feet
- Cushioned or soft surface to reduce impact
- Do it in supervised off-ice jump class setting

What else do you recommend? :)

Offline scootie12

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2010, 07:39:35 PM »
I usually always wear running shoes for off-ice jumps.  The only thing I practice these days are rotation.  Just a few double jump rotations before getting on the ice.

However, since I'm back to relarning the double axel, I prefer to practice this jump on the floor.  Although I just started back on the jump as part of my practice with my coach, I really need to relearn the timing because the extra half turn throws me off.  Once I'm comfortable doing it off-ice, I think I'll have a better muscle memory to execute it properly on the ice.  We'll see.

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Offline Doubletoe

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2010, 01:26:43 PM »
I absolutely had to learn the axel off ice before I could go for it on the ice.  Other jumps are tougher off-ice, though, especially pick jumps like toeloop, flip and lutz.  On the floor, you cannot properly pick and draw back while staying backward like you are supposed to do on the ice, so you pre-rotate the picking foot and jump forward off that foot instead.  That can create a bad habit that's hard to break when you transfer it to the ice.  For off-ice jumping, I like to wear boys' basketball shoes, since they are cheaper than women's and offer great ankle and heel support.

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2010, 03:50:43 PM »
I'd respectfully disagree on the use of trying to teach a picking jump off-ice first...
Flips and Lutzes are two of the easiest off-ice jumps, so I have no clue why you'd disagree.

Toe loops are hard due to the nature of the jump.

If you can do it off ice, on-ice is a breeze.  You take more speed into them on-ice, and typically get more spring out of that speed.

There are lots of issues that can be fixed off-ice, and lots of muscle memory that can be reinforced.

Just chucking them on ice is somewhat reckless, and I'm not a fan of overusing a harness...  I've been in one once, when first learning the backspin, and after 50 seconds I had them take it off because I don't like that artificial support it gives me (nor do I like the feeling of anyone/thing pulling up on my entire core...).

Offline Nate

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2010, 03:58:08 PM »
I absolutely had to learn the axel off ice before I could go for it on the ice.  Other jumps are tougher off-ice, though, especially pick jumps like toeloop, flip and lutz.  On the floor, you cannot properly pick and draw back while staying backward like you are supposed to do on the ice, so you pre-rotate the picking foot and jump forward off that foot instead.  That can create a bad habit that's hard to break when you transfer it to the ice.  For off-ice jumping, I like to wear boys' basketball shoes, since they are cheaper than women's and offer great ankle and heel support.
That's not correct.

Toe loop and salchow are hard.  Flip, Lutz, Axel/Waltz, and Loop are easy off ice.

Doing them off-ice isn't a means of getting the take-off 100% perfect.  That's not possible (even on an axel), because a hard floor is not an ice rink surface.  It's to get the air position, height, rotation correct.

It's just like walk-throughs on or off the ice.  They sort of exaggerate some thing that aren't especially like how the jump is performed in real time, but they help nontheless.

Doing the jump off-ice makes the skater stronger, because you have to work a bit harder to do the same element.  I've never seen anyone who does decent off-ice jumps get on the ice and exibiting bad technique.

I was doing doubles off-ice before I did a Waltz jump and it made every single jump trivial, and I get the height to do doubles and can even get Ankle contact in them.  All the take-offs are fine.

If the skater ends up with bad technique it's not cause they're doing off-ice jumps.  It's cause either the skater or the coach is doing something wrong.

All of those "things to do when jumping off-ice" are pretty obvious and any decent coach would demand that.  No one in their right mind does multi-rotation jumps off ice with bare feet.  I've never sprained or twisted my ankle doing doubles and very overrotated doubles off-ice (almost triples), even using edged feet and leaning on take-offs and landings.  Get some decent tennish shoes.

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2010, 08:50:35 PM »
  No one in their right mind does multi-rotation jumps off ice with bare feet.
I do.

Offline FigureSpins

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2010, 12:31:32 AM »
I've seen skaters do bare-footed off-ice jumps, but I agree that athletic shoes offer better protection.  However, I don't think that has any bearing on their mental state, imo. 

Off-ice Salchows are not hard - they're actually the prettiest-looking jumps that build the most control.  Toe loops are iffy, but they're iffy on-ice. It depends on whether or not you understand the toe-in transition and mid-air shift to the landing side.  Flip and Lutz are the same jump if you can't replicate the entry edge, so that's a non-issue other than the transition to the toe vault takeoff.  For the Loop jump, it's a really good training exercise.

I wonder if working out in those new exercise sneakers with the built-in rockers would be good or bad?  I think they could simulate edge jumps (not the edge, but the roll-to-the-toe takeoff) but might be dangerous on the landing because of the curve at the heel.  It'd be like using hockey skates with 4" wide blades, lol.


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Offline Nate

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2010, 07:14:34 AM »
I've seen skaters do bare-footed off-ice jumps, but I agree that athletic shoes offer better protection.  However, I don't think that has any bearing on their mental state, imo.  

Off-ice Salchows are not hard - they're actually the prettiest-looking jumps that build the most control.  Toe loops are iffy, but they're iffy on-ice. It depends on whether or not you understand the toe-in transition and mid-air shift to the landing side.  Flip and Lutz are the same jump if you can't replicate the entry edge, so that's a non-issue other than the transition to the toe vault takeoff.  For the Loop jump, it's a really good training exercise.

I wonder if working out in those new exercise sneakers with the built-in rockers would be good or bad?  I think they could simulate edge jumps (not the edge, but the roll-to-the-toe takeoff) but might be dangerous on the landing because of the curve at the heel.  It'd be like using hockey skates with 4" wide blades, lol.



The "in their right mind" comment was more rhetorical than literal, obviously.  No responsible coach would allow a skater to do doubles and triples off ice in bare feet, though.  Emphasis on responsible, and I'm not attempting to single anyone out.  I've spoken to top coaches at camps and none of them find that acceptable, safe, or logical.  And it doesn't really help the skater if she/he can rotate doubles off ice bare footed but fails to get the height on the ice with 3+ pounds of skate on her feet, anyways...

I'm actually curious how you're "picking in" for those jumps off the ice with no decent sneakers on, TBH.

I know tons of skaters who twisted or sprained their ankles because they underrotated off ice jumps are landed at a angle (leaned in the air).  I've never had this issue.

I know someone who almost broke her ankle doing that not long ago - an off ice [single] axel.  Couldn't skate for over a week.  Her entire ankle was swollen and she cuoldn't get her foot in her boot.

It's too risky, IMO (and those of many others), but you're free to do what you want! XD

You can simulate the edges on the takeoffs by edging you feet if you have supportive sneakers on.  It's harder with bare feet becasue of the way the foot flattens when pressure is put on either side of it.

Toe loop and salchow being harder has more to do with the mechanics of the jump than the actual jumps themselves.  It's just hard to really get the jumps right off-ice compared to most of the others because the entrance is not friendly to hard, non-ice surfaces,  Especiall the friction riddled surfaces in ice rinks (but something without friction would make landings way too dangerous...).

I do my toe loop out of an outside 3 turn (toe walley), so they're kind of easy for me off-ice.  Out of an inside three turn is harder.  Salchow I can usually pivot on the floor into the jump without doing the sort of wonkey hop arounds that most skaters do.  Mind as well just practice waltz jumps or axels if you're going to be doing that, IMO.

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2010, 08:48:53 AM »
Yeah, and skaters (including my DD) have sprained ankles and broken bones doing off-ice in sneakers, too.  Anything can happen, but as I said, I think athletic shoes are a must for off-ice.

I remind my students that they need sneakers for off-ice class, so they're usually prepared.  However, some skaters show up in clogs, flip-flops, sandals, boots, heels, etc.  Better for them to take off the footwear than jump in 99¢ thongs.  (the flip-flops, not the underwear, lol)

Obviously, these were the rookies working on singles.  The skaters working on doubles and triples always show up prepared with socks & athletic shoes, even if they wore Uggs to the rink that day.  I wasn't teaching the classes nor were they my students.  I think the off-ice instructor should have had them them miss the class or borrow sneakers, but it wasn't my call.  IMO, either alternative would be a good lesson in showing up prepared.  "Well, you won't do that again, will you?"  "I guess we learned something today!" go a long way in building responsibility.

Barefooted skaters used the ball of their foot to similate the toe-in.  Not correct, but impossible to repeat with a boot & blade on the ice.  Beginners are just learning which foot to use in what order and how to transfer weight and vault, so it's not necessary for them to break a toe for a Toe Loop, although it gives new meaning to the name, lol.

I don't know about the "use your sneaker to simulate the edge for lutz/flip."  At the higher levels, after they've mastered the single versions, they can probably pull that off, but it's really difficult for kids to understand why there's a difference and hold their foot in that way, which can also turn an ankle if they lose their balance. 

I'm going to try the basketball sneakers and see how they feel.  Thanks for the tip, Doubletoe.
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Offline Sierra

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2010, 10:54:46 AM »
I don't like wearing shoes- I only wear shoes when going somewhere and when horseback riding. I trip and fall a lot more when I wear sneakers in off ice jumping. I can do the jumps with weight- I've done axels and double loops with ankle weights, which weigh the same as my skates. Ankle weights aren't supposed to be used that way but I've only tried it a coupla times. ;)
I jump on grass or carpet- never on hard surface.

My ankles are also freakishly strong. When I was little, I used to pretend I was a horse and would jump over huge branches, fences, etc- barefoot. I still jump over the pool fence because it's on the way to the barn and it's much easier to jump rather than climb. I've never had a single ankle injury- I've rolled and twisted them hundreds of times with no pain.

I do salchows off ice by doing the little hops, then digging the inside of my foot into the grass and jumping to the side like an actual salchow. Works very well. I don't see any difference between toe jumps with or without sneakers- the ball of the foot is used either way.

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2010, 11:18:53 AM »
A skater working on higher level jumps wouldn't practice off-ice multi-rev jumps barefoot on the grass or carpet.  It's not worth the risk.

When skaters wear athletic shoes, they can use the front of the sneaker (where the toes are) to simulate a toepick.  It's not a perfect simulation because of the height variation, but it's closer to the on-ice version than barefooting the toe-in on the ball of the foot.  That on-ice equivalent would be using the rocker, which is dangerous on ice.

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2010, 11:34:38 AM »
I do my toe loop out of an outside 3 turn (toe walley), so they're kind of easy for me off-ice.  Out of an inside three turn is harder.  Salchow I can usually pivot on the floor into the jump without doing the sort of wonkey hop arounds that most skaters do.  Mind as well just practice waltz jumps or axels if you're going to be doing that, IMO.
I disagree - a salchow done from a pivot on ice results in a spin-type takeoff, which is incorrect.  The hop-and-jump technique simulates the edge-to-toepick takeoff that is the hallmark of a clean Salchow.
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Offline Nate

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 09:58:06 PM »
I disagree - a salchow done from a pivot on ice results in a spin-type takeoff, which is incorrect.  The hop-and-jump technique simulates the edge-to-toepick takeoff that is the hallmark of a clean Salchow.
I think you misunderstand. Maybe I used the wrong word, though.

I use a pivot off ice to simulate the "loop" going into the take-off on the salchow on ice.  Both are performed with the weight held at the same part of the foot, so when I get on ice it translates seamlessly.  Hopping around and then basically doing an Axel or Waltz jump doesn't accomplish the same thing.  It also allows me to do the jump off ice with my body and weight placed more similar to the on-ice jump.

It's not hard with a bit of control and some core strength, and I can even throw them np as part of Jump-Half Loop-Salchow combinations with no pauses/hops.

Have no issues getting up on the ice and as you can see from my posts here, I'm quite fanatic about the mechanics of jumping :P

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Re: Off ice jumps
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2010, 12:29:24 PM »
I broke my fifth metatarsal with barefoot off ice jumps. Never again. I was off the ice all summer that year - and the foot was really weak when I was allowed to skate again.