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Offline falen

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jump sequence explanations
« on: October 06, 2011, 12:18:39 PM »
I don't get it maybe someone can explain to me.  Why is a flip, toe loop, loop a combo and a flip, half loop, salchow a sequence?  Is a flip, half loop, loop a combo or sequence? 

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2011, 12:32:04 PM »
A sequence is anything that has a turn or change of foot before taking off the next jump.  Flip, half loop, loop would be a sequence, because half loop lands on left back inside (for CCW), but the loop takes off of the right back outside.  Flip-loop is a combo, because upon landing the flip, you can immediately do the loop with no steps in between.

I THINK (but am not sure, since I don't do this) that you can do loop, half loop, flip as a combo, but not the other order.  (Half loop can be followed by flip or salchow if I have my edges correct, anything else and it is a sequence.)


Offline falen

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2011, 12:45:19 PM »
ah it is the foot change.  So are jumps with axels a combo or sequence?  Isn't there a foot change?  I just can't get it.  I got it for a second, but its gone.  Axel, toe tap, axel is sequence?  Say 3 waltz in a row, is that a sequence or combo?

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Offline Skittl1321

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2011, 12:55:13 PM »
If the axel is the second jump, it is a sequence, since you have to turn forward for the take off.

But axel lands on the back outside edge like all the other jumps, so axel-toe loop, or axel-loop are combos.
 
You have to stick something between it to do axel-salchow, so that is a sequence.    (Basically, if the jump takes off from the RBO, for a CCW skater, then it can be a combo.  Any other edge, it is a sequence, because you have to get to that edge.)

I guess if you were a really talented jumper and could do a lutz in the opposite direction, you could do axel-lutz, (you'd have to pick with the "wrong" side for a "normal" lutz, but if you land a CCW axel on RBO, you could take off for a CW lutz).


Offline Schmeck

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2011, 02:03:00 PM »
My daughter could do a lutz-lutz, as she had all her singles but the axel both ways.  I don't think it's 'legal' to rotate in opposite directions in a jump combo though?

Combo/sequence depends on the landing edge of the first jump compared to the take-off edge of the next one.  If there is a need to add a connector in between two jumps (like a half loop) to get the skater on the proper edge for the second jump, it is a sequence.

Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2011, 02:44:58 PM »
My daughter could do a lutz-lutz, as she had all her singles but the axel both ways.  I don't think it's 'legal' to rotate in opposite directions in a jump combo though?

Combo/sequence depends on the landing edge of the first jump compared to the take-off edge of the next one.  If there is a need to add a connector in between two jumps (like a half loop) to get the skater on the proper edge for the second jump, it is a sequence.

A half loop is now a listed jump, correct? thus, the half loop "interconnector" would now be called as a combo. We had a number of skaters with jump elements disallowed as Canadian rules do not permit 3 jump combos, and the half-loop intervening jump made it a 3 jump combo.

Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2011, 02:47:10 PM »
By the way, Sk8stuff has a discussion on this ...

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_combos.htm

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2011, 02:57:02 PM »
A half loop is now a listed jump, correct? thus, the half loop "interconnector" would now be called as a combo. We had a number of skaters with jump elements disallowed as Canadian rules do not permit 3 jump combos, and the half-loop intervening jump made it a 3 jump combo.

You are right:
Quote
2. In Jump Combinations/Sequences Half-loop (or “Euler”) (landing backwards) will be a listed jump.
Consequently the units “half-loop + Salchow/Flip” and “any jump landed backwards outside + halfloop
+ Salchow/Flip” will become jump combinations of 2 or 3 jumps correspondingly. Half-loop
will have the Base Value and the GOE values of the single loop jump and will be identified by the
Technical Panel to the Judges and in the Protocols as “1Lo”.
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1862
(Oh, but it is only a listed jump if done in combo.  If done alone it is an unlisted jump: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf)


Does this make any difference to a 6.0 program?  Does a combo vs a sequence matter in 6.0?  I didn't think falen's daughter was to IJS levels yet, but I could be wrong.  Two scoring systems is so confusing, because 6.0 programs are judged with IJS eyes, so it's really like mini-IJS, when it shouldn't be.

Offline isakswings

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2011, 04:20:13 PM »
I don't think it matters in 6.0. For pre preliminary, this is what is listed in the jump portion of our club's competition announcement:

Single Jumps (Axel
permitted)
Max 2 combos or
sequences.
Combos limited to 2 jumps
Number of jumps in
sequence is not limited.
Axel may be repeated as
individual jump, combo, or
sequence. Max 2 Axels.

It looks like either or is accepted at this level.

Offline aussieskater

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2011, 04:24:11 PM »
Is a half loop - "X" jump or "X" jump-half loop (ie: only 2 jumps) considered a combo, a sequence, or a single jump with a difficult entry assuming the half loop is the first jump?

Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2011, 07:41:46 PM »
I don't think it matters in 6.0. For pre preliminary, this is what is listed in the jump portion of our club's competition announcement:

Single Jumps (Axel
permitted)
Max 2 combos or
sequences.
Combos limited to 2 jumps
Number of jumps in
sequence is not limited.
Axel may be repeated as
individual jump, combo, or
sequence. Max 2 Axels.

It looks like either or is accepted at this level.

I'm reading it that the half loop would matter if she put it in at all; you've got a two jump limit on combos,and the half loop would be jump # 2.  We had a whole bunch of coaches and skaters caught by this when the rule change came into effect.  (the unlimited sequence is interesting ... I could see a kid hopping and jumping her way all the way down the ice with jump after jump)

In answer to aussieskater: if it is in as part of the jumps, it is considered a listed jump and it makes it a combo.  If you did half loop + jump, it is a combo; and jump + half loop is also a combo.  It's not a difficult entry variation. 

Offline falen

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2011, 07:44:18 PM »
it is now as clear as mud to me ???

OK dd says flip, loop, half loop, salchow is a sequence (which is what is in her no test program).  WHY?????   :bash

Offline Clarice

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2011, 07:54:15 PM »
Because it has more than two jumps.  Anything more than two is automatically a sequence.  At least, that's how it was explained to me.

Offline techskater

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2011, 08:21:50 PM »
No, that's a combo now.  It used to be a sequence when 1/2 loop was an unlisted element.  I would have the coach verify the rules and expectations of the judges.  How many jumps are allowed in the combinations at that level?

If it has more than 2 jumps, it depends on how they are connected, so whoever told you if it's more than 2 jumps, that it is a sequence is wrong.  For example, Axel+toe loop+loop is a jump combination (worth 2.0 points) but Axel+1/2 loop+loop (worth 1.68 with the sequence penalty) is a sequence because of the step down from the 1/2 loop to the loop and Axel+1/2 loop+Salchow (worth 2.0 also) is a combination. 

Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2011, 08:28:34 PM »
it is now as clear as mud to me ???

OK dd says flip, loop, half loop, salchow is a sequence (which is what is in her no test program).  WHY?????   :bash

How long ago was the program? If it predates the rule change on the half loop ... then, that would make a difference. 

Offline Sk8tmum

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2011, 08:32:28 PM »
For example, Axel+toe loop+loop is a jump combination (worth 2.0 points) but Axel+1/2 loop+loop (worth 1.68 with the sequence penalty) is a sequence because of the step down from the 1/2 loop to the loop and Axel+1/2 loop+Salchow (worth 2.0 also) is a combination. 

Interesting ... we got called as a combo (illegal combo) with an axel/1/2 loop/loop.  Ruling being that the half loop is a listed jump, therefore, it is a combo regardless of whatever other jumps are in there.  Do you have a link to the ISU directive on that one, i.e. the "step down" factor? 

The half loop has vanished from programs hereabouts BTW - it was a waste of a combo spot due to the low value of the element ...

Offline falen

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2011, 08:33:52 PM »
its like for November.  Oh my where can I find the change documentation on the half loop?

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2011, 08:46:24 PM »
What level. That makes a difference. You should ask.the referee if your coach does not know

Offline falen

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2011, 09:03:44 PM »
it is no test

Offline nicklaszlo

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2011, 09:49:51 PM »
My daughter could do a lutz-lutz, as she had all her singles but the axel both ways.  I don't think it's 'legal' to rotate in opposite directions in a jump combo though?

I have never seen anyone do that (though in the era when lutz jumps always rotated the other way, I assume combinations that changed direction were common) but I cannot find the rule against it in the rulebook.  Any experts know for sure?

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2011, 06:39:57 AM »
it is no test

Then IJS rules do not apply. I have no idea whether the listed jumps they recently added changed for 6.0. You need to talk to the coach, and possibly email usfs

Offline Schmeck

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2011, 10:19:19 AM »
I have never seen anyone do that (though in the era when lutz jumps always rotated the other way, I assume combinations that changed direction were common) but I cannot find the rule against it in the rulebook.  Any experts know for sure?

I have to tell you that it was an ugly sight to see, LOL!  It just looks weird, and she only did them on practice ice, as she hated competing solo.  The only reason she could do the jumps both ways was because of synchro, as she was a 'leftie' skater, and had to learn the 'rightie' way for her team.  They never did do lutzes in competition.

Lutzes don't rotate the 'other way' they are just supposed to be entered on the reverse curve of the actual jump, BTW.

And everyone can ignore my combo/sequence definition, now that the half loop is a listed jump it's an obsolete description.

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2011, 10:31:26 AM »
Lutzes don't rotate the 'other way' they are just supposed to be entered on the reverse curve of the actual jump, BTW.

Oh, but they used to!  It was common in the single jump era.  

Quote
"Lutzes rotate the other way" is another way of saying they rotate "against the natural rotation" of the jump.
(from post below)
But in very early skating, lutzes rotate the other way meant that CCW skaters would often do their lutz CW. 

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Re: jump sequence explanations
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2011, 10:36:43 AM »
If you look at the footage as far back as the 1920's and '30's, some of the skaters are doing jumps in both directions in the same program.  Skaters have done jumps in both directions for many years - that's one of the reasons the ISI made it part of their high-level freestyle tests, much to skaters' dismay, lol. 

"Lutzes rotate the other way" is another way of saying they rotate "against the natural rotation" of the jump.  When a CCW skaters holds the LBO edge and picks in with the right foot, it feels (to them) that the jump should turn to the right in a CW direction.  They have to jump up and force the rotation in the CCW direction, which is what makes a Lutz so difficult and worth more points in the Scale of Values than a Flip.

That's why coaches teach Lutzes on a circle initially - it's easier for the skater to remember to "turn into the circle" so that they don't jump in the opposite direction (which is a Toe Loop, btw.)


It does look odd to do a Lutz(ccw)-Lutz(cw) combination:



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