Adult Moves Tests

[icedancer]

Only Intermediate and higher MIF tests have the Adult (and Masters, for those age 50+) option. Pre-Prelim through Juv have one standard.

Thanks.  I knew when I was writing that it wasn't quite right - but I do know of at least one coach in our area that encourages his adult students to take the Standard tests because of the progression of the Moves.

[Clarice]

Thanks.  I knew when I was writing that it wasn't quite right - but I do know of at least one coach in our area that encourages his adult students to take the Standard tests because of the progression of the Moves.

I did standard MIF, although it really was because I started Moves before there were adult MIF.  My coach thought it was important for skill development, so I did MIF right along with the kids and passed through Pre-Juv.  I had already passed Silver Free when the adult Moves became mandatory, so Adult Gold is the only adult MIF test I've ever taken.  I wonder whether it would have been even harder had I come to it through the adult structure instead of the standard one?

[Skate@Delaware]

After just beginning to learn Silver Moves, I can honestly say that it will take at least 2 years to get anywhere close to THINKING about testing these moves!!! I can't do power pulls at all right now, so far I can manage the spiral pattern and the mohawk sequence. Everything else is so extremely challenging to the point of not happening. I might be stuck at Bronze for a long time. 

I wish some of these had been introduced at a lower level, I'm not sure when everyone else learns power-pulls or the rest.

[davincisop]

I can't say that silver moves have been easy for me, I started them right before I got my new skates in April/May-ish so it stopped my progression for a while. Coach says that I have almost everything to passing standard, but we want it to be above passing so there are no worries. The toughest thing for my have been the back cross strokes and the back 3's. My spirals are stronger now and I get all but the very last lobe on all because I run out of steam (it's also 8 am when we work on these so I'm tired, too) and I just have to increase the speed on the 8-step mohawk sequence. But I have power pulls going forward and my back ones are almost there, just need to stay on a straight line and it's moreso just getting enough speed to push through them, and the forward cross strokes are probably my strongest element right now on the entire test.

I feel very blessed to be progressing as much as I have since I really can't get to the rink much to practice right now. My goal is to test them by January/February next year. The biggest nemesis I have right now is Bronze Free. I just can't get a low enough sit and a strong back spin.

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm also struggling with the sit-spin and the backspin...On a good day my backspin is there, usually it isn't.  We moved it to the front of my program so I can take my time with it...as for the sit....hahaha!

[Debbie S]

Interesting, because my impression from test videos has been that skaters often make the edge after the turn too short, which suggests that they have not really checked it.

I guess there are a variety of 'common errors' on that test. Another issue with that pattern is that it was never clearly defined whether the cross (in the non-turn lobe) was a crossover (a la power 3's) or just a cross front. I saw both ways being done, the judges seemed fine with either way.

I wonder whether it would have been even harder had I come to it through the adult structure instead of the standard one?

I don't think so. By the time you get to Gold, you'll have mastered the same skills tested on the standard track through Pre-Juv. Although by going from Pre-Juv to Gold, you do miss the 8-step and cross strokes b/c they are on Juv, but I don't know if that made your Gold test harder. Right now, I see issues with going from Bronze to Silver and trying to learn the 3's in the field having never done either FO or FI 3's on that type of pattern, and having to learn that along with the back 3's. Plus master the spirals. I think a lot of adults are going to end up quitting MIF after Bronze, which not only means they'll never learn 3-turns on a lobe (I could see the quality of footwork in competitive programs suffering), they'll also never develop advanced stroking skills (from cross strokes, power pulls, power circles).

[Skate@Delaware]

Right now, I see issues with going from Bronze to Silver and trying to learn the 3's in the field having never done either FO or FI 3's on that type of pattern, and having to learn that along with the back 3's. Plus master the spirals. I think a lot of adults are going to end up quitting MIF after Bronze, which not only means they'll never learn 3-turns on a lobe (I could see the quality of footwork in competitive programs suffering), they'll also never develop advanced stroking skills (from cross strokes, power pulls, power circles).

Silver moves are extremely frustrating, and if you are learning many of these for the first time ever, that just adds to the amount of time between passing Bronze and Silver. I just started learning cross strokes, power pulls, and BI3's (had already started learning BO3's but they were put on the back-burner so I could work on Bronze moves).  Some of the adults in my rink that recently started testing Standard Track are staying there. They say the progression of moves makes more sense...right now I agree.

[davincisop]

I'm also struggling with the sit-spin and the backspin...On a good day my backspin is there, usually it isn't.  We moved it to the front of my program so I can take my time with it...as for the sit....hahaha!

That's EXACTLY what my coach is going to do, too! She's putting it at the very front of the program so it's out of the way and done!

[tazsk8s]

I see issues with going from Bronze to Silver and trying to learn the 3's in the field having never done either FO or FI 3's on that type of pattern, and having to learn that along with the back 3's. Plus master the spirals.

And power pulls, which aren't the most "adult friendly" move either.

I actually feel better reading some of this...I figured my struggles with Silver MITF were just because I'd never done *any* moves and was getting bitten in the rear end by being grandfathered through Bronze.  I'm now wondering if it would have really been that much better if I'd gone through Pre-Bronze and Bronze moves, in any of their incarnations.  Add me as another person who is doing standard MITF now (coach and I decided prelim might actually be testable "in this lifetime" this week, which is a huge step up from last year when I figured "ain't no way"), because the progression of skills makes more sense than the adult track.

[Jenna]

I used to do standard and adult track and I was having the same issues in pre-juv.  Aside from the 8 step mohawk, all my trouble moves are from the pre-juv test.  I finally decided to focus just on the adult tests until I pass my gold moves.

I'm fortunate to have a coach now who is more proactive on making me work on skills that will help my moves now, work on higher skills to prepare me when I get to those moves and still work on the patterns in the test that I'm working on now.  The coach that I had for my bronze test never worked on back 3s, power pulls or cross strokes with me.  I passed bronze and was missing skills for two-thirds of the silver test (which is part of the reasons for me taking eons to pass silver).  In contrast, I've worked on all the skills for gold moves.

[nicklaszlo]

power pulls, which aren't the most "adult friendly" move either.

They're my favorite move!  

(I am still working on "boring bronze")

[jjane45]

Cross posting FigureSpins' drill from practice thread for alternating spiral pattern:

Four or more lobes are allowed for this pattern.  However, since the focii for this move are extension and edge quality, you have to improve your edges.  The size of your lobes are probably caused by the flats - you're heading straight down the rink instead of riding the edge and letting the blade create the arc.

I'm coaching four Prelim testers now and the best exercise is to do the spirals on a circle with everything lined up over the circle.  We can say "stay over the tracing" all we want, but to non-Figures skaters, it's a suggestion, not a requirement.  "Keep everything over the circle" works better because they can SEE the circle and understand the tracing concept better.  You want the head/shoulders leading the way, balanced over the skating foot and leg and the free leg extended behind over the circle.  Everything lined up, like an arrow.  The edge of the blade will create the curve and do the work of turning.

While I know some people believe holding the free leg inside/outside the circle makes it easier, I have yet to see it really improve this spiral pattern.  More often, it pulls them off the edge to do a "stomp-swing-through" or a "stamp-two-foot-glide" at the transitions, which demonstrates a lack of control.

Another drill I use is to have the skaters do "double spirals" around the circle.  They start out with a clean push into the spiral, then bend the knee, lower the free leg and glide on the same skating foot before going back into the exact same spiral with no push or change of foot/edge.  It's really strengthened their transitions because it increases their body control and strength.

I practiced tracing hockey circles with all forward spirals today, usually get 3/4 of the circle except for RFO. Combination of weak side and weak direction, but still shocked by how shaky it was, as RFO edge seemed alright so far in other drills. The circle really helped body alignment, too. Excellent drill, thank you again FigureSpins!

[LilJen]

I plan to test these next month. I got started on the revised spirals as soon as I heard they'd changed, and yes, the inside spirals are still a wee bit wobbly but I think they'll be OK. The move that I struggle with the most? Fwd power pulls. Somehow I figured out the back ones so I can rip, rip, rip down the ice, but the forward ones? My coach described them as "too nice." Edges are there but I'm not digging into them or yanking out of them like I should. I can't figure out what to do. All other moves, though, are passing as far as I know, so I'm hoping this won't be a problem.

wrt BI3s, one thing that helped me is working with coaches who KNOW figures!! The idea to go pigeon-toed has helped a lot. ie, your free foot can be right over your skating foot and sort of pigeon-toed before the turn.

And my coach is always asking for more knee bend in the back cross-strokes. More bending, and actually more leaning backward helped me here, too--I finally noticed that my toepicks were scratching a bit and slowing me down towards the end of each stroke (not that I was toepicking in to begin the stroke, but pulling up to the toepick to end). I've gotten some more flow with much deeper knee bend and allowing myself to lean backwards a bit more.

[Doubletoe]

I think USFS thinks they took care of the Master's level skater by lowering the standard even further.
I think they think they already addressed young adults by making a seperate test track.
What seems to actually be needed is judges training.  Quantifying what these standards mean. 

In my area, I find that the judges seem to be pretty clear on the difference between the passing standard in Adult MIF tests vs. standard MIF tests (as evidenced by the fact that I passed every move on the Adult Gold MIF test on the first try, but got 5 retries before I passed the Intermediate MIF test, which was the same test except for one move!).  However, it is quite possible that in other parts of the country there are fewer adult skaters or the judges just aren't as well educated when it comes to adult skaters. 

[Skate@Delaware]

In my area, I find that the judges seem to be pretty clear on the difference between the passing standard in Adult MIF tests vs. standard MIF tests (as evidenced by the fact that I passed every move on the Adult Gold MIF test on the first try, but got 5 retries before I passed the Intermediate MIF test, which was the same test except for one move!).  However, it is quite possible that in other parts of the country there are fewer adult skaters or the judges just aren't as well educated when it comes to adult skaters. 

You know, even some occupations or activities require that you self-declare if you have any injuries that might inhibit your ability to perform at a certain level. I know that this is a sport, but even sports require this self-declaration in order to prevent further injuries. An understanding that Skater X has severely arthritic knees and can't do certain moves or can't straighten the leg completely or spinal stenosis due to age or another reason perhaps might not be able to arch the back in a spiral.  These are declarations to allow some reasonable accommodations due to injury.  I am not asking for "handicap points" or anything like that but an understanding that my injuries prevent me from doing things perfectly would be nice.

And no, I won't accept "stop skating" as an answer so don't even offer that up.  I can still skate and my skating is still at a passing level it just isn't "pretty" like you see at the younger levels. I'm older. I've had multiple injuries. My body can't do certain things. If I'm taking a test after a 12-year-old that has the same moves I would HOPE that my moves are NOT compared to theirs. Because even though we might have been skating for the same amount of time, my body just isn't the same as theirs, at all.

I did get the benefit of explanation before my last moves test, when the judge did ask me how long I had been skating and when did I start. So from the get-go she knew (and I believe she understood) that my moves would not be the same as the others.

(off rant/soap-box now, thanks for your attention )

[davincisop]

You know, even some occupations or activities require that you self-declare if you have any injuries that might inhibit your ability to perform at a certain level. I know that this is a sport, but even sports require this self-declaration in order to prevent further injuries. An understanding that Skater X has severely arthritic knees and can't do certain moves or can't straighten the leg completely or spinal stenosis due to age or another reason perhaps might not be able to arch the back in a spiral.  These are declarations to allow some reasonable accommodations due to injury.  I am not asking for "handicap points" or anything like that but an understanding that my injuries prevent me from doing things perfectly would be nice.

And no, I won't accept "stop skating" as an answer so don't even offer that up.  I can still skate and my skating is still at a passing level it just isn't "pretty" like you see at the younger levels. I'm older. I've had multiple injuries. My body can't do certain things. If I'm taking a test after a 12-year-old that has the same moves I would HOPE that my moves are NOT compared to theirs. Because even though we might have been skating for the same amount of time, my body just isn't the same as theirs, at all.

I did get the benefit of explanation before my last moves test, when the judge did ask me how long I had been skating and when did I start. So from the get-go she knew (and I believe she understood) that my moves would not be the same as the others.

(off rant/soap-box now, thanks for your attention )

I'm not sure if this has been offered before, but I know with adult nationals you are separated into age categories. What if they did that for MIF?  A 23 year old and a 53 year old can't be compared at all on a MIF OR Freestyle test. They expect the same standards for everyone.

[Skittl1321]

They have age categories, but just two.  Adult and Master's.

The problem is, it is not well defined what the difference in the standard is, just that the passing total is lower.

In a competition, you are judged against the others in the competition.  In a test, you are supposed to be judged against a test standard.

[davincisop]

They have age categories, but just two.  Adult and Master's.

The problem is, it is not well defined what the difference in the standard is, just that the passing total is lower.

In a competition, you are judged against the others in the competition.  In a test, you are supposed to be judged against a test standard.

Ah fair enough. Sometimes I wish I was tested against the standard but I also know that I would probably not pass my moves or freestyle then.

[tazsk8s]

In my area, I find that the judges seem to be pretty clear on the difference between the passing standard in Adult MIF tests vs. standard MIF tests (as evidenced by the fact that I passed every move on the Adult Gold MIF test on the first try, but got 5 retries before I passed the Intermediate MIF test, which was the same test except for one move!).  However, it is quite possible that in other parts of the country there are fewer adult skaters or the judges just aren't as well educated when it comes to adult skaters.  

That is definitely what the adult skaters in my area are running into.  Basically, there IS no difference here.  So if I'm going to be judged on the same standards as the kids anyway, I might as well take the same test and save everyone some confusion.  My coach has put plenty of people through the standard moves tests so I know I can rely on her to accurately decide when they're test-ready.

We also used to have a lot of adult skaters in the area and those numbers have dimished severely in the last 8-10 years for whaterver reason (bad economy?  injuries?  lack of adult-friendly ice time? giving up due to the frustration of hitting a brick wall due to moves?  Don't know).  We usually have a couple people in adult LTS every session, but I haven't really seen any of them stick with it beyond skating forwards and stopping.  And I'm not knocking that if that's all they wanted to learn...it's just an observation.

[Skate@Delaware]

That is definitely what the adult skaters in my are are running into.  Basically, there IS no difference here.  So if I'm going to be judged on the same standards as the kids anyway, I might as well take the same test and save everyone some confusion.  My coach has put plenty of people through the standard moves tests so I know I can rely on her to accurately decide when they're test-ready.

We also used to have a lot of adult skaters in the area and those numbers have dimished severely in the last 8-10 years for whaterver reason (bad economy?  injuries?  lack of adult-friendly ice time? giving up due to the frustration of hitting a brick wall due to moves?  Don't know).  We usually have a couple people in adult LTS every session, but I haven't really seen any of them stick with it beyond skating forwards and stopping.  And I'm not knocking that if that's all they wanted to learn...it's just an observation.

Some of the adults at my rink said they won't test after this upcoming test session because the next set of moves are ones they can't do. They are "stuck" and can't progress. We are all 50+ and getting "creaky" and just can't do certain things. The MIF tests don't allow for your age like the competitions do. So it might be pre-bronze forever for a lot of us. Which also means a lot of us will never get to compete at Adult Nationals, and with the slowly dwindling amount of adult competitions, the switch over to ISI competitions seems more likely.

[Skittl1321]

I just don't like the emphasis on age.  There is a 73 year old woman in my freestyle class on Saturdays.  I skate faster than she does (I'm just about 30), but she does all the same elements that I do.

AND- she has never had a major injury in her life.  I have had several, one life threatening.   

Age break downs just don't solve the problem.  And to solve the problem, there would need to be individualized testing...

I would just like to see clearly defined what the standards are.  What does it mean to have a 2.7 vs a 2.8? 

Sure, I might never be able to reach the standard, but at least I know what I'm working towards! Right now it is just a mystery line. 

(I've also stopped bothering with MITF.  As long as the spirals on the silver test stay there, I'm out.  I can maybe learn to get over the fear of 8-step mohawk, and practice my 3-turns until they are strong enough.  Without surgery, my hip will never allow the spiral to happen.)

[icedancer]

I just don't like the emphasis on age.  There is a 73 year old woman in my freestyle class on Saturdays.  I skate faster than she does (I'm just about 30), but she does all the same elements that I do.

AND- she has never had a major injury in her life.  I have had several, one life threatening.   

Age break downs just don't solve the problem.  And to solve the problem, there would need to be individualized testing...

I think that a 30-year old has no idea what it is like to be 50+ .  I say this as a person who was once 30 and wondered why all of the 50+ skaters were so slow.  They would say things to me like, "I used to do this... or that..." - while I was out there skating fast, doing all of the dances solo at speed and tempo, had decent technique, wasn't afraid to fall, etc.

I have now joined the ranks of the 50+ skater - have had a lot of injuries (many from skating but other things) - and don't want to hurt myself.  Moves that were once easy (Blues choctaw, 14-step mohawk, Fox-Trot Mohawk, etc.,) I have to do next to a wall if I can do it at all because the timing on my left knee is just not there! 

I think that for the Master's level one should be given a choice of Moves to do - or maybe just do the side you are comfortable with.  If you can't do a spiral maybe there could be some other edge-related Move - our coaches are always coming up with New Moves that could be done well by an adult with restrictions...

In the meantime I continue to practice, work on strengthening my knees and my body, working on getting down into my sore ankles and hope that some day some of these skills will come back.

But I am quite sure I will never test Silver Moves.

[Skittl1321]

I think that a 30-year old has no idea what it is like to be 50+ . 

I never said I knew what it was like to be 50. I just said that age isn't a perfect indicator of ability.  I see a woman who is 40 years older than me doing the exact same elements I'm doing.  Age clearly isn't holding her back, but injury history is clearly holding me back. 

I don't think anyone has any idea what it can be like to be someone else.  You may have been fast and fearless at 30.  I am not (though, as I said, I'm faster than the 73 year old woman).  Until you (general you) have laid paralyzed with a broken neck, you can't understand where my fear of injury comes from.  This is the reason I'm scared of falling.  I was so incredibly lucky the paraylsis was temporary, but having to learn how to walk again was real.  I never want to have to do that again- I know what it means to really be hurt.  The broken rib and broken tailbone that I've gotten while skating is not wear my fear and hesitation come from.  My knees don't work like they did 10 years ago.  I have tendinitis in just about every joint.  I can't turn my head all the way left to look over my shoulder due to a multi-level fusion.  This is the first year in many that I haven't been to the PT yet.

I'm sure it will be even worse when I'm 50 (by then I'll have a minimum of 5 bones in my neck fused, possibly all 7.  And I'm guessing if that happens, skating is over, as I won't be able to turn my head at all).  I have many friends who are 20 to 30 years older than me who are much healthier than I am in terms of body condition.  My age does not indicate that about me.  I don't think age is the only way to divide people, because everyone has completely different experiences.  There are 50 year olds who have much more attack than I do, I know 50 year olds with better knees, better hips, better ankles, and better shoulders than mine.  My neck problems are exceptional, so I won't even mention those again.   I think age is an okay place to start- but they already did that. There is already a Master's standard.   It isn't the perfect dividing line though.

[MimiG]

What about an adjusted test stream? Something where you would fill out a form listing any limitations for the judges to take into consideration. If you pass the test, you could say you have an "adjusted bronze freestyle" or whatever and I don't see why you couldn't go on to test the next test as normal, if possible. I think it would have to qualify you for the same competition groups, though, since fields can already be pretty small (not add a new category... but I could be convinced otherwise) and competition programs can be worked around limitations on specific elements.

I could see this being very difficult on the judges though, since now they have to consider medical restrictions that they may not be familiar with or really understand, but it's just an idea bouncing around in my head... thoughts?

(Running out to a Halloween thing with my preschooler... back to think on this some more later!)

[MimiG]

And very quickly before I head out the door: I used to be one of those 20-somethings that started with a dance and athletic background that flew through a bunch of standard tests and didn't understand the need for an adult stream at all. And then I got older, met more adult skaters, stopped skating when work got crazy and again when I moved, had a kid... skating again now, but no more doubles, and those gold dances sure seem a whole lot tougher! Ah, life.