Am I being told what I want to hear, or the truth?

[dak_rbb]

It's impossible for us to tell whether the coach truly believes what she is saying or even has the experience to make that judgment.  However, while it's probably not always the case, the coaches I've met seem honest and straightforward. And, since it seems like your daughter is enjoying her lessons and her skating, you both like the coach, it's not a financial strain, she's progressing well and she does other normal 5-year-old kid stuff, I would just keep watch, use your common sense, maintain perspective and don't allow yourself to be pushed into anything that doesn't seem right to you or puts a strain on your family life or financial resources (that will come later  ).

I don't know if a 5 year old beginner really needs that much lesson time (i.e. will it mean she's a much better skater 10 years down the road? Will she get to juvenile at age 8 or 9 instead of 10 or 11?  Does it matter? I don't know.), but if you're willing to pay and she's having fun then there's no problem.  No matter what, it doesn't hurt to take everything with a grain of salt and see how it goes.  After all, even for the incredibly talented, it's still a long, long process to get to the top and a lot can happen.

[ferelu]

just going to throw this out there into cyberspace......if the original posters child was a boy and wanted to be a baseball player and the dad was taking his kid outside everyday after kindergarten to play catch and throw in the backyard, would that be acceptable?  Also, if said kid wanted to work with a coach to help his throwing or catching skills because dad couldn't throw or catch due to some other reason, would that be okay?  I don't think this dad is asking how to make his 5 year old the next olympic star.   He's asking if it's normal - well, my experience in skating is that NOTHING is normal!  Everything is nutso and crazy regardless of the path one takes in this sport!  What is it with skating that we're so eager to convince newbies that kids shouldn't have tons of privates and tons of ice time.  If the family is okay with it, IMO - it's fine.   Will the child burn out - maybe, probably - but how many kids switch sports later in life anyway?  I don't think it's a big deal at all!

Sorry if my post is offensive but this is really my pet peeve in this sport!

I completely agree with you. Children should have a minimum of 60 minutes of being physically active. Who cares what activities they do to make up those 60 minutes, skate everyday if that's what the child wants to do. The important thing is for the child to get excersize now, everyday. When the child will be 8 and might find skating boring, then find a new activity to stay fit. No need to go crazy.

Also, I do use the word talent and by that I mean, the child has above average something whether it be balance, strenght, power, flexibility or endurance. I don't mean it in a bad way, or that I'm trying to get new students. I also don't only say good things to the parents about the girl, I tell them in what areas they have trouble with, not just the good stuff.

[twokidsskatemom]

As a mom of two kids who started when they were young, I would say if she is happy now let it be.I would question someone that said she has a competive spirit, I dont know of what she based that on.I also wouldnt push  lessons  alot, she does need to learn to practice herself. If you give her alot now, what will you do when she is juv or higher?Its a life lesson she will need to learn.Three lessons a week is what my skaters get, who are pre juv and juv.They compete with kids who have 5 hour long lessons a week and hold their own fine.More lessons doesnt equal better skating.
Gia skates 20 hours a week, way too much. She is good, but I  dont know if she will last.IMO slow and steady wins more than my.... year old has...
I wouldnt worry about ISI VS USFSA.Alot of skaters at Nationals started out in ISI.
edited  typos!

[SkateDad]

20 hours a week? Holy cow! When does the child have time to do school work? I will be as supportive of my daughter current passion (I say "current" because who knows how long she will ask to skate) as I possibly can be, but certainly not at the expense of her education.

Is 20 or more hours a week the norm for very competitive skaters? WTH am i getting myself into here?  lol

[twokidsskatemom]

I would guess between 10 -18 would the norm, with the high end for Senior level skaters.I dont know if its really that much for Gia, that is what she has said on her youtube.She is only 9 and juv.My own do around 10 ish on ice, with maybe 6 hours off ice.Just like more lessons doesnt equal better skating, more ice time sometimes is counter productive.

[momtovanan]

My daughter started to skate when she was young too, but she only skated 1 group lesson/week without any practice. We did not know she supposed to practice. She started private lesson when she was 5 with 1 lesson/week + 1 hour practice. She improved quite a bit after she started to practice by herself. Now she 7 and have 3 lessons/week + 10 hours practice and no longer doing any group lesson. Our coach does not think that you can spot a talent until the kid can do double Axel. My daughter is competing at preliminary level.

[Sk8tmum]

just going to throw this out there into cyberspace......if the original posters child was a boy and wanted to be a baseball player and the dad was taking his kid outside everyday after kindergarten to play catch and throw in the backyard, would that be acceptable?  Also, if said kid wanted to work with a coach to help his throwing or catching skills because dad couldn't throw or catch due to some other reason, would that be okay?  

Actually, I would say, maybe, no it might not be okay - maybe yes, maybe no, it's situational. All of my kids plays baseball; they started when they were around 4 or 5 in the run around the bases and maybe hit a ball league.  My older brothers were all at the top of "sport" with one a major league call up team ... so, yeah, I know baseball.

There is hanging around in the backyard and tossing the ball around with dad and having fun. Then, there are the 5 year olds that I see who are outside with dad every night, regardless of what else they might want to do, and being made to drill and drill - and then spending their play time in intensive "skills development" programs to make them better players.  The kids are not having fun; they are often getting injured (tiny rotator cuffs don't take lots of stress) - but, they are getting pushed and pushed to become wonderful baseball players.  You can see the same stuff in hockey ... there are 5 year olds on our rinks out here at 6 a.m. on a Saturday doing powerstroking drills for hours and hours so they can make rep teams, and who are already working with private coaches. All sports can be nuts ... not just skating ...

60 minutes of physical activity a day is not a big deal - but it shouldn't be in intense, driven, focussed training. Skate Canada has put that out there in specific direction in the skating world, and the Long Term Athlete Development model on which this is based is being adopted by a wide range of sports organizations to prevent early injury and burnout.

[Sk8tmum]

And oh yeah ... we had a coach who "really wanted" my kid for a variety of reasons back when lessons began.  She was very very very helpful; we got lots of time, and pats, and stroking and discussions about wonderful futures and great talent and all that.

That coach is now an ex-coach.  Turned out she did this as a pattern, and when parents got disillusioned, they switched to another coach - so she was always on the lookout for the next "innocent" skating parent to latch on.

Like I said, I'm cynical. In this and in every other endeavour (dance, skating, hockey, etc etc etc, art lessons, music lessons) - I see instructors who convince parents that their kid is unique, special and talented. Yeah, my kid IS unique, and thank goodness for it - but, not because of any special talent.

The best music teacher we had for our DD who is - actually - it turns out, many years later, reasonably talented at her instrument, was honest with us that she could see traits that might help her develop into a good player, but, at a young age, so much can change that there is no way that a definitive label of "prodigy" can be attached, and building up expectations at a young age meant a higher likelihood of disappointment later on. Plus, the kid may simply decide that "ick" this isn't for them ... and if you've invested tons of time, money and emotional attachment to a sport or activity, it makes it harder for the kid to be able to move on to something else, KWIM?

[Schmeck]

About ISI vs USFS - I'm just going by what I see in our region.  My daughters did straight USFS, one all the way through senior moves (for synchro) so I don't have too much knowledge about the structure of ISI.  How do they teach the axel in ISI?  The girls doing them at the one exhibition my older daughter skated in just had a very bizarre entrance/leg position, and none of the axels were over 1 1/4 rotations, at the most.  I just couldn't figure out what the heck they were trying to do, and how they thought they could get a full axel that way.  I'm thinking it must have been the coaching at this small program, as it seems no one else has seen this happening in ISI.  Is there a guideline online, like USFS has?

[kssk8fan]

schmeck, the basics of skating remain the same regardless of ISI or USFSA......the difference is the competitiveness.   As for technique - that's completely coach related and has nothing to do with USFSA or ISI.  There are plenty of USFSA coaches that can't teach correct technique!

[Schmeck]

USFS breaks down the axel quite nicely in its LTS guides, I figured ISI would have something similar?

[isakswings]

Without reading the other responses, I can tell you I am seeing red flags. Now, I am NOT saying her coach is lying to you. Your daughter may very well have some natural talent and may very well enjoy the sport. However, in my opinion, 3 private lessons a week PLUS 2 group lessons is a lot of ice time for a newbie... any newbie but at 5, she definitely doesn't need that many lessons. At this point, she likes the sport, let her enjoy the sport and if it were me, I would cut back to one private lesson a week and one group.  No beginner needs that many lessons. I would find a way to politely tell the coach you want to cut back. I would bring your daughter to skate as often as she wants, but keep it fun. Let her explore the sport. At 5, who knows what she will like in a month. Good luck!

[isakswings]

WOW...thats impressive. I wonder how long she's been skating?

I think Gia has been skating since she was 3. We attended a competition last month and got to see her skate in person. She is not only an amazing skater, but she is such a sweet girl too. My daughter and her friend talked to her and she seemed like such a nice little girl. Anyway, I am pretty sure Gia's mom said she has been skating since she was 3.

Oh and as for 5 year olds and talent, there is a 5 yr old boy at our rink who skates very well for 5! Granted, both his parents are coaches and he has been on the ice since she was very small, but he is very coordinated and like your daughter, BEGS to skate. I did not see that it was your daughter, not the coach, who asked for extra lessons. If I had seen that before, I would have modified my answer! I would still consider dropping her lessons down to 1 group and 1 private lesson. I would take her as often and she and you want to be there and go from there! Enjoy the ride and revel in her excitement!

[isakswings]

Again, thank you all for the comments. Being a skating "dad" I feel like I am in the minority here! 

Are you kidding? Skate dad's ROCK! We have one very active skate dad at our rink and plenty of other dad's who come frequently. I think it is great when the dad's come! My husband will take our daughter too...

[isakswings]

It is true what you say about young kids getting their jumps and axel by 7. There is a boy at our rink now who has his axel and is now moving up to pre-pre. he has been skating a little over 2 years now. He is 7. His sisters are 12 and 14 and have been skating just as long and are also now in pre-pre. They are all good skaters but the biggest thing is that they skate A LOT. They have several lessons a week too. There is another little girl I know who has been skating since she was 3.5. She is now 8.5 and has all of her single jumps up through her lutz jump. She is working on her axel now as well. To be honest, a year ago she was still in the the higher levels of basic 1-8. Since the start of the year, she has gone from Freeskate 1 to where she is now. I would imagine by the beginning of next year(ie: January), she will be in at least, non-test. she has been progressing quickly over the last year. Part of that is her own increased interest in skating and in improving. Why the sudden change? I think maturity, increased interest to improve and more ice and lesson time. Another little girl I know is 9 1/2. She started skating 1.5 years ago at 8. In a year, she moved from basic skills to pre-preliminary. She is currently working on doubles(tho is not landing them yet). She is another one who has an intense interest in the sport and a desire to improve. She LOVES to skate. She probably skates 4-5 days a week for at least 2 hours each time she skates. I have no idea how many lessons a week she takes, but I would guess at least 2. I have been impressed by her progression! Anyway, the point is... sometimes age has nothing to do with it. The amount of time spent on the ice and the lessons CAN help progression but it doesn't guarantee it either. I know my own daughter is at a bit of a disadvantage because we cannot afford regular lessons with a jump coach many of the skaters use. We also cannot regularly afford 3 lessons a week with her primary coach. That happens about twice a month. I think this has affected her progression. She IS progressing, just not as quickly as some. Her spins are really improving but her doubles are not near where we wanted them to be at this time. Her axel is consistent and getting higher... so progression IS there... it is just slower. That's ok! We will do what we can and go from there.

To the OP... truthfully, you know your daughter. Like I said before, I would probably cut back on lessons and just let her skate on her own... BUT if you can afford it and she is happy and you are happy...go for it. You never know what may or may not happen.

[SkateDad]

After reading plenty of insightful responses I am going to keep her in the privates she has now. It isn't a financial strain on my family, she loves the lessons and her coach, and her coach gives me a warm and fuzzy as well. Unless something happens to make me mistrust her (coach), I'll continue on the assumption that she is being honest.

That said, I will cut the group lessons down to one/week at the end of this semester. Truth be told, I would get rid of them all together if it didn't make fiscal sense to keep them. (She gets unlimited open skating time and a discount at the pro shop for being enrolled in the skating school) but the classes themselves are terrible. I could go on forever about what i dislike about them, but no need for that negativity. I get the value of the lessons in ice time and pro shop discounts so I'll take it for what it's worth.

Thank you all for your opinions and suggestions, this is a great forum.

[hopskipjump]

you might also read Xan...
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/2011/06/dreaded-schedule.html

[jjane45]

That said, I will cut the group lessons down to one/week at the end of this semester. I could go on forever about what i dislike about them, but no need for that negativity.

Also check out the thread Are group lessons worthwhile. It's more of an adult skaters perspective but maybe some posts will help.

Lot of times the beginner classes are large in size and not necessarily taught by the best instructors on staff. Definitely cannot compare to the bliss of privates, but higher level classes are generally much smaller, at least at my rink. (I think skating directors should focus more at lower levels to retain potential clientele but that's lots of work I guess.)

As long as the instructors are competent and professional, I recommend sticking with group lessons also for different perspectives. Sometimes the skater may need to hear the same thing from a different person, just phrased slightly differently for it to click and sink in.

(Unlimited open skating time and discount at the pro shop sound great!)

[Sk8Dreams]

That said, I will cut the group lessons down to one/week at the end of this semester.

If for no other reason, group lessons are worthwhile as a way for your daughter to meet other skaters at about her level.

[icedancer]

How long are the private lessons?  The trend nowadays seems to be towards 1/2 hour lesson but back when I was a kid most lessons were 15 minutes - even the higher level skaters - then we took more a week and had more practice time.

As far as group classes go - they are a mixed bag but we have really top level coaches teaching our classes along with the Jr. coaches and high school students who are getting their first taste of teaching.  The top level coaches recognize that the group classes are a good source of potential new students of course, which is why they like doing them!

Most of the rinks in my area have the "take a class and get free public sessions" and one offers a discount at the pro shop as well.  Some skaters "take a class" just to get the discount!

[FigureSpins]

How long are the private lessons?  The trend nowadays seems to be towards 1/2 hour lesson but back when I was a kid most lessons were 15 minutes - even the higher level skaters - then we took more a week and had more practice time.

When I skated, 20-30 minutes was normal, however, ice time was very limited and the rinks spread out.  Many pros coached at multiple rinks in a single day.  I took most of my lessons in the evenings, so the commuting and time period sort of required a guaranteed number of lessons in order to attract the coaches.  No one expected a coach to drive 40 minutes from her home or another rink just to teach a single 15-minute lesson, then head out after dinner and darkness.  With today's gasoline prices, that really hurts the wallet.

The shorter lessons were typically focused on one discipline.  Example: 15-20 minutes figures, 15-20 minutes free, 15-20 minutes dance, spread out over multiple days during the week.  Higher-level skaters would take longer or multiple lessons on freestyle or dance.  Only those preparing for tests would do multiple lessons on patch.

Group lessons depend on the program itself and it's financial state.  Our rink just discontinued the "junior pro" lesson payment, substituting a freestyle punch because enrollment is so low.  To answer the OP's question, there are two "Learn to Skate" curriculum in the US: the Ice Skating Institute (ISI) and the USFSA Basic Skating Skills (BSS) program.  They're both okay for the introductory levels, assuming the coaches know how to instruct them properly.  The ISI has fewer levels in their Pre-Alpha-through-Delta curriculum than Basic Skills 1-8, but the ISI levels are intentionally more challenging.  They focus on recreational skating and offering challenging test levels, but skaters tend to get "stuck" on the tougher elements.  The BSS is designed more as a staircase, using lower-level tests to build skills needed for the next step-up skills.  As a result, skaters typically progress faster through BSS since there are no "tough elements" - things are aligned better, imo.  (I've coached in both programs and was an ISI skater.

However, in most cases, the BSS program is chosen by most skating directors because it's considered a "feeder program" to bring skaters into the fold of standardized testing beyond Basic Skills and Freeskate.  Part of that is bias: most skating directors were themselves USFSA skaters, so they feel it leads up the preferred path to USFSA Qualifying competitions, as opposed to the ISI's pattern of making skating fun and challenging for anyone. 

At your daughter's level, it's six of one, half-dozen of the other.

ISI Curriculum: http://www.skateisi.com/site/Sub.Cfm?Content=Testing_Requirements
USFSA BSS Curriculum: http://www.usfsa.org/Programs.asp?id=47

[twokidsskatemom]

How long are the private lessons?  The trend nowadays seems to be towards 1/2 hour lesson but back when I was a kid most lessons were 15 minutes - even the higher level skaters - then we took more a week and had more practice time.

As far as group classes go - they are a mixed bag but we have really top level coaches teaching our classes along with the Jr. coaches and high school students who are getting their first taste of teaching.  The top level coaches recognize that the group classes are a good source of potential new students of course, which is why they like doing them!

Most of the rinks in my area have the "take a class and get free public sessions" and one offers a discount at the pro shop as well.  Some skaters "take a class" just to get the discount!

That is how we got sucked in,,,, 15 minute lessons twice a week.Wish someone had talked to me back then about the real  costs!

[isakswings]

That is how we got sucked in,,,, 15 minute lessons twice a week.Wish someone had talked to me back then about the real  costs!

Ha! Isn't that the truth! It seems I keep adding in stuff as I can afford to do it! The problem is, the more your kid skates and levels up, the more it costs. Learn to skate is a bargain! Whenever people ask me how much it costs to skate, I always say it depends on what you are aiming for. If all you want to do is putter around and learn a few cool tricks, LTS is probably enough for quite awhile. If you want to compete, that is an entirely different thing. Around here, 6 weeks of LTS is 40.00. The price includes skate rental and a pass for 5 freestyles or public sessions. It is definitely easy to get sucked in and it happened slowly for us. This is a beautiful but very, very expensive sport! I swear I can hear my wallet cry each time I walk into the ice rink! LOL!!

[SkateDad]

How long are the private lessons? 

Her lessons are for 30 minutes per lesson. Regarding the group lessons and the ability to meet new friends, I would tend to agree if the same kids were in the class each week. Unfortunately, in the group classes at her rink, not only are the instructors different each week (not what is published on the schedule) but the kids in the class are different as well, so it makes it difficult for a five year old to get super friendly with a new group each class. I can only speak for the group classes here, but my overall assessment would be that they could be much more useful if they were properly managed. I think the instructors do the best they can with what they have, but it's semi-controlled chaos during those classes at the lower levels. Probably has as much to do with the parents who are not yet sure of skating "etiquette" as it has to do with management for not properly informing the parents of what is expected from them.

What I am getting from all this is that skating for young kids is as much of a commitment on the parents end as it is on the skaters end. For a new parent like myself, if you don't actively seek the "do's and don'ts" you are highly likely to offend and behave obnoxiously (by skating standards) at the rink. I'm a pretty tolerant of it as I'm new myself, but I can imagine those parents that have been doing this dance for a number of years get fed up with a new group of "misbehaving" parents kicking the tires every 12 weeks. Am I being naive to assume that parents, along with the kids, get better over time? 

[Skittl1321]

That does not sound like a good group class situation at all.  I understand your desire for privates in that situation.  It's better for a 5-year old to have consistency.

At one rink I went to, the instructor changed week to week (not desirable) but at least the class stayed the same.

At my current rink, the class and the instructor stays the same for 8 weeks.