Am I being told what I want to hear, or the truth?

[SkateDad]

I'm new here and very thankful for finding this board. My dd has recently discovered figure skating and really seems to like it. I wouldn't say "love it" just yet, but she certainly likes it more than any of the other activities she has tried. i.e. soccer, gymnastics, swimming, etc.

She started with a group class once a week about 6 weeks ago but has since gone to two classes a week and private lessons. Her coach has made it clear that she has "unbelievable natural talent" and claims she sees a "competitive spirit" in her. I don't see that but maybe it's because I'm her dad? Either way, we are now doing the group classes and 3 private lessons a week. I have no idea how this works, but it seems this sport may have it's share of unscrupulous characters. That said, is the coach telling me this so I continue with more lessons, or is it possible to believe that a coach, after six weeks, can decide that a 5 year old has so much natural talent? Of course I want to believe this is true, but I can't help but wonder how many other parents have heard the same things and as a result continued to spend money on lessons.

As a barometer, she has gone from never being in an ice rink, to passing her Alpha test in just under six weeks. For all I know, this could be perfectly normal and not at all because of some unbelievable talent.

At this point I think the important thing is that she is having fun and she has not even mentioning quitting like she has with all the other things she has tried, but I am not interested in entering into a long term relationship with a coach who may be stretching the truth so she can get paid. It's also important to note that i have no reason to believe the coach isn't being honest; she has been a professional since we started. I guess I am just a pessimist.  Thank you all in advance for your feedback.

[Skittl1321]

For a 5-year old, she may be a "natural talent" (that is, really seems to like it, catches on quickly) but I wouldn't rush to put her in private lessons.  Keep her in the group lessons through at least Gamma, and then maybe supplement private lessons at Delta if you think she needs it.

If she has a gymnastics background, even at 5, she may just have more coordination than many of the kids the coach sees.  But even future Olympians are just at the 'having fun' stage at this age.  The 5-year old prodigies don't usually stick around until they are 8 if they are burnt out too early.  Let her be a kid, get the basics down, and then you can worry about being a "skate parents" later


Also- I teach tots, and Alpha in 6-weeks if she never had skates on before is pretty good for a 5-year old, unless they "take it easy" on the kids for the tests, lots of rinks do "pity pass" at the end of every class.  Did every kid pass?  (It's okay if they did- but are they all looking like they are about the same level? If a kid who looks like he can't do anything also passed, then you have a bit more to doubt about the rigor of the program...)  Did she do Pre-Alpha first?

If the coach stresses the need for privates (or MORE privates if your rink doesn't offer groups) say for now, the goal is to have fun.  A good coach will understand that for a 5-year old!

[SkateDad]

Thanks for the reply Skittle. I’ll try to answer your questions for more detail.
She did pass pre-alpha first and yes the rink does offer plenty of group lessons. I dislike them because the teachers change from week to week, and with 8-12 5 year olds in a class there really doesn’t seem to be much learning taking place. The coaches, as they should, tend to spend the most time with the slowest students and I complete get that, but it stresses me out when I see her doing something wrong and the coaches in the classes are too busy with other students to correct her. Seems allowing her to do things incorrectly may be doing more harm than good, or at least that’s the way I view it.

When she tested it wasn’t in a group setting, there is one person at the rink that does the ISI testing (for a fee of course) and she tested dd both time. I don’t know how many students that test for pre-alpha and alpha actually don’t pass, but that would be good information to have. In my opinion, she hasn’t “mastered” the things in either test, but she can do them. I have yet to understand if passing the ISI tests is based on mastering the maneuvers or simply performing them without falling down. lol

The coach hasn’t asked for more private lessons, it was actually my dd that asked. She really likes the one on one instruction as opposed to the groups. It’s in my nature to push so I have completely stepped back and allowed dd to take the lead in how much or how little she wants to skate.

[hopskipjump]

The most important thing (imho) is having fun on the ice at 5.  Dd did one class and one private (because yes, kids do learn faster one on one).  But it's REALLY important for dd to have friends to skate practice and public sessions with and it's more fun if you have a class together.  Personally I'd do a group lesson (it is standard for a new coach for every new session) and one private and the third day just have her meet friends to practice.

Dd was like yours - fresh from competitive gymnastics and moved quickly through alpha - gamma.  Dd was 5 and skipped pre-alpha.

Now I have a friend who has her dd at several rinks from age 3 with the best coaches, skating daily for a couple hours a day.  She has rearranged her life to accommodate an intense skating schedule.  Who knows, maybe she will be a future Olympian (she is barely 5 now and is pre-pre with pre mitf already passed). 

Every parent has different goals for their kids and different amounts of time and money.

Dd skates and maybe one day she can make nationals.  Maybe not.  My focus is that she is well rounded and happy and has a solid work ethic and skating does not define her.

[Sk8tmum]

Let me wade in ... I don't know the coach, and I have no way of commenting on her professionalism, ethics, etc. However, there is no coach in the world who can identify that a very young, beginning skater has an above-average natural talent in skating, especially not at age 5.  You can see look-fors, which are a range of things which include:

Balance
Coordination
Interest
Presentation ability
Flexibilty
Body type

A 5 year old is still a very small child, and you cannot tell at that stage what body type s/he will end up with, nor can you really measure flexibility, etc. Again, I cannot comment on your coach, but, I would be wary of any coach who is telling parents that their child is a "natural" at that age - maybe it's just a great deal of enthusiasm, but, realistically - they can't know.  Nobody can.

Your child is a child. Skating should be just - fun  - at this stage.  If s/he wants private lessons - hmmm - my DD was in privates at age 5, and for a similar reason, that group lessons drove she and I both nuts for the reasons you cite, and, as the parent of two older skaters, I am picky as all get out in terms of quality of edges, turns, etc.  However,  we also picked a coach who was focussed on keeping it fun, unpressured, and who had a similar philosophy as we had - that kids should be allowed to progress at their own rates.

I would ask your DD if she wants the privates because she really loves SKATING or if she just likes doing one-on-one with an adult (some kids enjoy that very much). That will help you in understanding what is going on.  Also, 5 year olds are very easily influenced; if they get the idea that they will be "amazing" if they do lessons with a particular coach (again, your coach may not be doing this, but, I have seen coaches spin little minds this way in their eagerness to get new students) - so, an open and unstructured conversation with your DD about why she wants this, and where she got the idea would be good.

I would also say that your DD is skating too much for a 5 year old.  That is a lot of ice time, and a lot of lessons.

Sigh. Can you tell I'm cynical?  Sorry ... I'm just very protective of little skaters and their parents - everyone should have a good experience in this sport from day one, if possible.

[SkateDad]

Thank you all very much for your feedback and comments. I really appreciate the insight from other parents. My hope is that her coach is drawing her conclusion about "natural ability" from dd's enthusiasm and eagerness to skate.

I can say that when we go for open skate (in addition to the privates and classes) I have to literally make her get off the ice when it's time to go. I would agree that this sounds like she is skating too much, but every day I pick her up from school she asks, can we skate today? And the first thing out of her mouth on Saturday and Sunday mornings is typically "can we go ice skating today?" So the time we spend at the rink is based on her desire, but maybe as the parent I should temper that somewhat so she doesn't burn out.

Again, thank you all for the comments. Being a skating "dad" I feel like I am in the minority here! 

[Sk8tmum]

Again, thank you all for the comments. Being a skating "dad" I feel like I am in the minority here! 

Don't be ... I'm the post- er, but my husband is very very very much involved with all aspects of our 3 kids skating - he drives to comps, makes intelligent comments on skating, helps plan out session times and provides feedback to the kids, buys the skates, works with our skate sharpener, does costume consults ... is still a bit wobbly on the difference between a sal and a loop, but, he's excellent on equipment and on off-ice training and nutrition.  Spends lots of time rinkside ... there are many skate dads out there.

[jjane45]

Welcome aboard. I think the progress falls within normal range considering the amount of ice time and privates. I do believe it's possible to tell real talent of very young kids once they hit the freestyle levels. Talent in terms of mastering higher level elements, not in terms of the level of competitive success.

[Sk8Dreams]

Let me wade in ... I don't know the coach, and I have no way of commenting on her professionalism, ethics, etc. However, there is no coach in the world who can identify that a very young, beginning skater has an above-average natural talent in skating, especially not at age 5.  You can see look-fors, which are a range of things which include:

Balance
Coordination
Interest
Presentation ability
Flexibilty
Body type

I disagree to the extent that I believe the very characteristics you have listed are the ones that DO demonstrate above-average ability (I've come to prefer that word to "talent") in anyone, especially small children.  I've seen several 5 and under kids over the years, who could basically, just get on the ice, and skate around.  However, it takes so much more than natural physical ability to become a successful competitive skater.

SkateDad - I like that you are letting your daughter lead the way, but I do feel just a bit wary of the coach; maybe because I would never push like that.  I'm comfortable telling parents that their child has a lot of natural ability, but that's as far as I go.
There are so many other factors involved in developing a successful competitive skater, not the least of which are growth, injury, passion for the sport, and money.  As long as your daughter loves what she is doing, is not getting hurt, and you can afford it, I don't see why not. 

If you want to get some grounding in what talent is, check out Gia Kokotakis on YouTube, and keep in mind that she is just one of many.  Start with the earliest videos of her and read the comments and parent's replies.  If you have time, check out some of the other videos, especially the ones that tout their children as "future olympians."  Skating is a crazy business.

[SkateDad]

If you want to get some grounding in what talent is, check out Gia Kokotakis on YouTube, and keep in mind that she is just one of many.  Start with the earliest videos of her and read the comments and parent's replies.  If you have time, check out some of the other videos, especially the ones that tout their children as "future olympians."  Skating is a crazy business.

WOW...thats impressive. I wonder how long she's been skating?

[Schmeck]

Well, if your daughter is that talented, (according to the coach), why is she still having her do ISI?  If the coach thinks this child is so talented, and may go very far in figure skating, then she should be in a USFS formatted program, shouldn't she?  I guess she could do ISI for a little while, but only USFS skaters qualify for the Olympics.

I know the above sounds a bit harsh, but I've heard/seen similar scenarios from our local gymnastic coaches and a rare figure skating coach.  The rush to private lessons makes me a bit suspicious, especially for her to have so many.  Does she have the equal amount of practice time?

[jjane45]

That was a little harsh, Schmeck. Since an axel is needed to be competitive in the lowest level of USFS hierarchy, serious skaters usually switch from ISI competitions to USFS competitions after ISI FS5. The group lessons at that level really don't matter much, as skaters gradually depend more on privates.

I also think starting early with private lessons is not a problem as long as coach / skater / parents keep things in perspective. It builds better foundations for sure, especially since the group classes are relatively large.

If she loves skating and you can afford the lessons / ice, let her skate! Stealing a line from Xanboni:

Ever wonder about those little kids who have all their single jumps, maybe even an axel, by the time they're 7? They aren't any more talented than your kid. They just skate. All. The. Time.

[sarahspins]

That was a little harsh, Schmeck. Since an axel is needed to be competitive in the lowest level of USFS hierarchy, serious skaters usually switch from ISI competitions to USFS competitions after ISI FS5. The group lessons at that level really don't matter much, as skaters gradually depend more on privates.

I also think starting early with private lessons is not a problem as long as coach / skater / parents keep things in perspective. It builds better foundations for sure, especially since the group classes are relatively large.

If she loves skating and you can afford the lessons / ice, let her skate!

I agree with all of this.  I have kids just about this age (and one older)... personally I can't see myself investing that much time/money at such a young age, but on the flip side of that none of mine have been so focused on any one activity either (my oldest does gymnastics and is on the boy's team at his gym, but he only trains 4 hours a week), so it's really hard to say if I would make that call if they did show an extreme interest.  On the flip side I wouldn't judge a parent either for supporting their children's interest either, so long as it's truly the child's desire to skate and not mom or dad.

As a skater myself, I've actually been pretty careful to not put too much pressure on my kids to take up skating.  They do have their own skates and skate public with me sometimes for fun, but none of them so far have actually taken lessons.  My daughter (6) only recently asked to try it, and I'm letting her take lessons soon, but I don't have any expectations out of it really other than boosting her confidence on the ice.  If she wants to keep skating that's great, it's not, that's more than okay too.

Personally 2 group classes and 3 private lessons a week sounds like a lot to me - I didn't have near that much coaching at any point in my skating life, not even when I had several doubles.  More isn't always better, sometimes it's just more.  I got plenty of ice time in and had focused goals for my practice sessions (goals provided by my coach), which I know made up for not having a lesson every time I skated.

[hopskipjump]

I wouldn't worry about when Gia started!  There are a lot of girls about 10 that started skating less than a year ago and are doing beautiful Axels and working on doubles.  Guess what?  They are almost caught up to girls who started at 4!  They are dedicated and ask to be at the rink all of the time.  There are SO many talented girls - Even Gia doesn't always place first and sometimes she is the only girl in her event (don't get me wrong she is talented).

[Schmeck]

My harshness was directed at the coach, not the dad, BTW.  Although, at age 5, I think that this might be too much skating and not enough other stuff, but since I don't know the family, maybe there is a lot of other fun stuff (like playing with friends) happening too.

I'm just very wary of coaches that can judge a child's potential in a few weeks, and shares that right off with a parent.  Every parent wants to hear that their child is amazing - a coach that encourages a headfirst plunge into something like this (multiple group/private lessons) isn't a very good coach, IMO.

I'm also very wary of ISI, as the programs in our area are crap.  The girls skating ISI have dreadful technique, and the axels they do are horrible, ugly affairs.  I know it's most likely the way the coaches teach the axel, and not the actual program, but it just hasn't impressed me compared to USFS.

Of course the dad knows his daughter the best, and if she has been bitten by the skating bug, and wants to skate all the time right now, I think that's great.  Make sure it's fun, and always her idea to go for extra time.  As long as the family can afford it, and everything is kept in perspective,  it's a wonderful sport.

[blue111moon]

I would want to know why the 5-year-old is asking for more private lessons.  The general rule of thumb is twice as much practice time as lesson time, but I see a lot of kids who spend ALL or almost all of their ice time in lessons.   That's not good.  A lot of them unfortunately don't get a lot of one-on-one attention in their non-skating lives, and the skating lesson fills the need to have an adult's attention focussed solely on them.  They like being the center of attention and the skating is just the means to get that attention.

I've also found that kids who genuinely LOVE to skate will ask to skate without lessons.  They just want to be on the ice as much as they can.  But if they only want to skate when they have class or a lesson, then that's telling me that maybe it's something other than the actual skating that's the draw.

And unfortuantely there are coaches out there sho see kids as little more than dollar signs on skates and will play on parents' pride to make money.  Frankly, I don't think its possible to tell if a child who's only been skating for a few weeks, no matter how quickly she's picked up the skills, is "Olympic material."  Some kids are just a little more coordinated than their peers.  Some kids catch on quickly at the start and then get bogged down later on.  And for some kids, skating is only fun as long as it's easy;  the minute they have to really work at a skill, they get bored and frustrated and don't like it any more.

I'd be wary of putting a total beginner (and Alpha IS just a beginner) in more than a grone group class and one short private lesson a week.  If she wants to skate more than that then take her to puclic skating and let her play and practice.  Anything more than that is overkill.

[Skittl1321]

I'm also very wary of ISI, as the programs in our area are crap.  The girls skating ISI have dreadful technique, and the axels they do are horrible, ugly affairs.  I know it's most likely the way the coaches teach the axel, and not the actual program, but it just hasn't impressed me compared to USFS.

But at the Alpha level, there usually isn't a choice.  If you are doing basic skills, you do the basic skills program the rink offers.  (Just like at Basic 4, there isn't a choice to move to ISI).

Once you are in freestyle level and individual coach can decide which track to follow.

I don't know any mid-level ISI skaters who do not also test USFS.  (I don't know any high level ISI skaters- but those in 8, 9, and 10 are a rare breed.)

[FigureSpins]

One side note: I'm seeing a lot of parents add lessons each week, tilting that lesson:practice ratio the wrong way.  Sometimes, it's because the skaters don't know what to do with themselves during practices.  It's frustrating to the coach because every lesson turns into a supervised practice.  Worksheets, notebooks and skill lists for practices only work if the parent/skater is willing to use them.  The phrase I overheard recently was that "She just won't practice, so I have the coach give her a lesson so she knows what to do."

To me, this is a life skills lesson that's being overlooked.  Everyone needs to learn how to prioritize and remember what they're supposed to be doing, then do it with little/no prodding. 

My knee-jerk reaction was "well, then the skater just isn't *that* into skating.  They're probably doing it for the parent."  However, in the case I overheard, I know the skater loves the sport and is happy when she's on the ice, but it's a SOCIAL activity - it has to involve interacting with other skaters or the coaches.  That's what's missing on the open practices for this girl.  If she doesn't know anyone, or feels uncomfortable, she won't practice.  So, mom hires the coach to give her a reason to be on the ice during that time.

Maybe that's why the OP's DD is asking for more lessons, as blue111moon suggested?

I've skated and taught in both programs.  Any USFSA or ISI LTS can be weak or strong; it all depends on the program, the director, the coach and the skaters.  The difference in their skating can be explained by the fact that most skaters who choose ISI-only are recreational who don't skate or take lessons as often as the USFSA skaters.  Take any two skaters, put them in the same program.  Allow one to skate 2 hours/week and the other to skate 12 hours a week.  What do you think you'll get?

For the record, I know plenty of USFSA skaters with crappy axels, edges and spins.

[jjane45]

I've skated and taught in both programs.  Any USFSA or ISI LTS can be weak or strong; it all depends on the program, the director, the coach and the skaters.  

Exactly. IMO it also depends on the coach's perception of the skater's goal and potential. If a recreational skater shows strong desire to focus on tricks only and moving up in FS levels, basics are losing on (limited) lesson time.

Sometimes, it's because the skaters don't know what to do with themselves during practices... So, mom hires the coach to give her a reason to be on the ice during that time.

I don't know how lesson:practice ratio works for the really young kids. It seems they do need a "reason" to be on freestyle practice ice if there is a minimum age requirement to practice independently (age 7 at my rink IIRC). But for LTS, public skating sessions should suffice. (ETA: this is a side note, not directly addressed to FigureSpins' point)

[SkateDad]

Again, thanks for all the comments. I think, as hard as it was to read, the the idea of why she wants the private lessons may be important. We do PLENTY of things as a family outside of skating but I think she asks for the private lessons because she wants to get better, and isn't quite sure at this age how to practice on her own. When she goes to open public skating it is usually spent playing and socializing with the other girls she has befriended at the rink, being silly on the ice and doing normal 5 year old things. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that at this age the playing and socializing is just as important as learning new skills and practicing. So, maybe I am paying simply for supervised practices as opposed to lessons. Truthfully, I'm OK with that. She likes them, I can afford them without breaking the bank, her coach seemingly doesn't have a problem with it, so I don't see an issue unless I am overlooking something?

Regarding why she is in ISI as opposed to USFSA, I thought starting in ISI and then moving to USFSA was the natural progression. Again, I'm new to this as well so if that's not the case, or if there is something wrong with that approach I'd be interested in hearing why. Do some rinks support only ISI and other USFSA? My daughter has a lesson tonight so I'll ask her coach about the transition and get her opinions on it as well. For the record, I really like her coach and she's been very generous with her time and is IMHO very attentive to my daughters progress. For example, when she is there for open skate and coach isn't actively involved in another lesson, she will often spend time with my daughter helping her out and just being silly with her. So I suppose I am of mixed emotions, cynical of course that she can identify talent at such a young age, but encouraged by her what seems to be genuine interest in my daughter.

I had no idea getting into this that skating could be such drama!  lol

[FigureSpins]

I don't know how lesson:practice ratio works for the really young kids. It seems they do need a "reason" to be on freestyle practice ice if there is a minimum age requirement to practice independently (age 7 at my rink IIRC). But for LTS, public skating sessions should suffice.

It doesn't matter what type of session or the skater's age.  My point is that some skaters just can't figure out how to practice on their own.  Last week was an older girl, who should be able to make a list (even a mental one) of what to do on the ice.  There's some self-consciousness that is also involved.  The older skaters stop to let the higher-level skaters have right of way and spend half the session hanging on the boards, embarrassed to work on their sit spins because they're "not as good." 

[fsk8r]

At 5 or at any age, playing with friends on the ice can actually be practice. She's getting comfortable with being on the ice and trying things that she may or may not have covered in a lesson. Being confident on the ice and understanding her own balance on her blades is an important skill to learn and while she's concentrating on her friends she's not focussing on her feet, which is quite often a benefit.

 

[Skittl1321]

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that at this age the playing and socializing is just as important as learning new skills and practicing. So, maybe I am paying simply for supervised practices as opposed to lessons. Truthfully, I'm OK with that. She likes them, I can afford them without breaking the bank, her coach seemingly doesn't have a problem with it, so I don't see an issue unless I am overlooking something?

At her age and her level, playing on the ice is practice.

If you and your bank account are okay with paying for supervised practice, I do think that is okay.


(As for the ISI to USFSA progression, that depends on the rink.  If it is the norm at your rink, don't worry about it.  Lots of successful USFS skaters started with ISI)

[Sk8Dreams]

ITA with those who said that at 5, playing on the ice is practice.  My younger DD didn't start skating till she was 10, so she knew how to practice pretty quickly.  We had a rule that she could socialize all she wanted on public sessions, but freestyle was solely for practice.  Even so, there were times when she and her friends practiced together on a freestyle session, as in "can you do...?" , followed by each skater doing whatever it was. That was fine as long as there wasn't too much standing around involved.  This is one way (in the future) that you can tell how much your child really loves to skate, vs how much she/he just enjoys the environment.  The ones who love it also love the process of learning, i.e. the practice, and you won't see them standing around chatting too much.

[kssk8fan]

just going to throw this out there into cyberspace......if the original posters child was a boy and wanted to be a baseball player and the dad was taking his kid outside everyday after kindergarten to play catch and throw in the backyard, would that be acceptable?  Also, if said kid wanted to work with a coach to help his throwing or catching skills because dad couldn't throw or catch due to some other reason, would that be okay?  I don't think this dad is asking how to make his 5 year old the next olympic star.   He's asking if it's normal - well, my experience in skating is that NOTHING is normal!  Everything is nutso and crazy regardless of the path one takes in this sport!  What is it with skating that we're so eager to convince newbies that kids shouldn't have tons of privates and tons of ice time.  If the family is okay with it, IMO - it's fine.   Will the child burn out - maybe, probably - but how many kids switch sports later in life anyway?  I don't think it's a big deal at all!

Sorry if my post is offensive but this is really my pet peeve in this sport!