spins confusion

[falen]

it seems everyone is confused about spins this year (at our rink and the previous post)!  For the 2 spins what would couunt?  DD cannot do a layback since with glasses, they fall off no matter what we do (can't stop and ask judges to hold the glasses then stop to put them back on) and without glasses she cannot skate at all.   So coach hopes camel, sit, scratch and then a sit will be good.  It seems like everyone here has a layback as the solo spin.  What is the consensus here?

[techskater]

What level?
Here's the rules for no test through Prejuv in the following link:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/201112SinglesFSElementsNotest-Prejuv.pdf
And Juv-senior:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/201112SinglesFSElements.pdf

The Prejuv or Juv spin in one position can be a camel, sit or layback and may commence with a fly.  If it's Juvenile that you're seeing all the kids doing a layback, it's because in the SoV, the Layback as a leveled solo spin has the highest base value and is probably a better spin for most of them than the flying camel or flying sit is.  FWIW, Juvenile Final Round at a local competition here had a number of flying sit spins as the solo spin.

If you are curious, here's the current SoV:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/201112-S&P-SOVs.pdf

[jumpingbeansmom]

What level?
Here's the rules for no test through Prejuv in the following link:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/201112SinglesFSElementsNotest-Prejuv.pdf
And Juv-senior:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/201112SinglesFSElements.pdf

The Prejuv or Juv spin in one position can be a camel, sit or layback and may commence with a fly.  If it's Juvenile that you're seeing all the kids doing a layback, it's because in the SoV, the Layback as a leveled solo spin has the highest base value and is probably a better spin for most of them than the flying camel or flying sit is.  FWIW, Juvenile Final Round at a local competition here had a number of flying sit spins as the solo spin.

If you are curious, here's the current SoV:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/201112-S&P-SOVs.pdf

My dd does flying sit into a broken leg and then tuck for 8 revolutions

[isakswings]

it seems everyone is confused about spins this year (at our rink and the previous post)!  For the 2 spins what would couunt?  DD cannot do a layback since with glasses, they fall off no matter what we do (can't stop and ask judges to hold the glasses then stop to put them back on) and without glasses she cannot skate at all.   So coach hopes camel, sit, scratch and then a sit will be good.  It seems like everyone here has a layback as the solo spin.  What is the consensus here?

Is this for the non-test/pre-pre level? If I remember right, your daughter is near that level, yes? If so, make the scratch spin a back scratch spin and the spin combo you are talking about is fine(Camel-sit-back scratch spin). Around here, a lot of non-test and pre-pre skaters attempt a layback in their programs. My daughter does not have a good layback yet, so she has not done one in a program. She actually does the spin I mentioned in her pre-pre program. My daughter currently does the spin I mentioned and a pancake spin as her solo spin. I have NO idea if her coach will mix things up a bit for next month's comp but that is what my daughter currently does. We are hoping to have my daughter skate preliminary in Jan/Feb, so I do not know if she will "need" a layback then or not. I think there are other spins that you can put in, instead of a layback.

One thing to think about is doing a camel-sit-back sit. For some reason, my daughter struggles with that combo. She can do a back-sit better solo then in a combo. LOL! It is improving, but not good enough to put in her program. My daughter seems to struggle with back spins. It took her awhile to get a decent back-scratch spin too. Anyway, good luck!

Oh and I can't remember... is your daughter skating the USFSA track or ISI? If it is ISI, then my post probably means nothing since my daughter skates USFSA.

[isakswings]

My dd does flying sit into a broken leg and then tuck for 8 revolutions

I LOVE the broken leg spin! My dd is working on that spin. It is so pretty!

[Skittl1321]

Oh and I can't remember... is your daughter skating the USFSA track or ISI? If it is ISI, then my post probably means nothing since my daughter skates USFSA.

If ISI, the layback isn't an element until Freestyle 6 (so fairly up there in the levels).  However, it is not required as skaters can choose between crossfoot spin or Sit-change-sit spin.  Layback is generally the easiest option for girls, so that's why most do it.

I don't think this poster's daughter is ISI FS6 though- she posted recently about not having an axel, and referred to a no-test program. 

I'd be a little concerned about having a coach that doesn't know appropriate spin content.  I know at the highest levels you need to bring in specialists to determine if a spin really is L4 and not L3- but at the low levels, a coach should know what is allowed.

[falen]

yes she is no test or maybe pre pre,  I truly get confused.  But all the girls in her group are doing a layback.  DD's layback is pretty good, but we can't keep those darn glasses in place, so out it goes.  I think coach has a good handle on the rules, but we worry if those judging may see the solo sit as not of a different nature than the combo spin.  The layback is so clearly different nature.  


Just asked dd it is no test

[Skittl1321]

A solo sit spin will not be considered to be the same nature as a combo spin.  The combo spin will have a change of position, a change of foot, or both.  That is what makes it of a different nature- to play it safe, change position (rather than sit-change-sit) then without a doubt, it is different (but SSp -sit spin- is different from CSsp - sit spin with foot change). If it was called under IJS, it would have a different code, that's all that is required for it to be of a different nature.    Here is a really good document about that: http://sdfsc-enews.org/PlannedElementSheet.pdf



The problem is, low levels are NOT (usually) judged under IJS. The IJS rules don't matter.  The problem is, the judges are used to looking at programs under IJS rules, so they end up being applied to 6.0 even when they aren't supposed to be.

This document has a lot of good information about IJS: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf

I don't know where one can find 6.0 rules anymore...


(Having looked all this up, I'm wondering if a layback spin is considered to be of a different nature from a scratch spin.  They are both upright spins, but layback codes start with L- so is it different?)

[aussieskater]

Under IJS yes a layback is regarded as a different spin, and as you pointed out it has a code of its own.  The general rule for IJS is that one spin is different from another if the two spins have different codes.

IJS is fabulous for higher-level skaters, but a little difficult to manage in terms of low level ones.  For example, in pre-IJS days, low level skaters here used to be able to do forward scratch as one spin and back scratch as another and have both count.  Now both are called USp and the second isn't being counted unless the skater is managing both in a combination spin (CUsp).