spins

[jumpingbeansmom]

Do you have video of her? If so, then run it in super slo mo (or frame by frame) and have her count the revs from when she was in control of the position (which can be quite different from when she 'assumed the position') and watching for intermediate "slips out of position" - skaters will do this, for example, when they rise up slightly out of the sit to regain control.  It can be an eyeopening experience.  Many skaters miss that "in control" aspect in terms of having the revs count. 

Getting there, she realized today, that she lost a level on her back camel because it was unsteady and her leg came down a bit... I mean, she still got a leve 3, which wasn't bad... but it was meant as a level 4.   She is starting to get it!

[skatingmum2]

Wow - lightbulb moment. One of dd's spins (which she thought was level 3 - but was given level 2) involved sit spin plus pancake (although doubt she was in full pancake for followed by Y-balance spin (no idea of revolutions- probably about 5) and then standard upright spin. She was cross it wasn't level 3 - but - guess the pancake position needed to be way more revolutions. She can hold them for ages but worries about not finishing her program!

[Sk8tmum]

Wow - lightbulb moment. One of dd's spins (which she thought was level 3 - but was given level 2) involved sit spin plus pancake (although doubt she was in full pancake for followed by Y-balance spin (no idea of revolutions- probably about 5) and then standard upright spin. She was cross it wasn't level 3 - but - guess the pancake position needed to be way more revolutions. She can hold them for ages but worries about not finishing her program!

Okay, if the sit wasn't low enough, it would be called an upright spin, same with the pancake; then the "y-spin" is also an upright, and then the standard upright is - an upright.  Check that the sit was held for the correct number of revs with the skating leg at least horizontal to the ice, if not lower; some skaters also mistakenly assume that a pancake is a sit, but, you still have to have that same depth in the skating leg as with a regular sit.  Also, if she used any of these "features" in an earlier spin - they don't get the bullet in the subsequent spin, as a feature counts only once in a program.

Lots and lots of variables this year.  Lots and lots of baffled skaters and coaches rethinking spins. 

[pamplemousse]

Okay, if the sit wasn't low enough, it would be called an upright spin, same with the pancake.

It'd actually be an intermediate position, not an upright (unless she really was upright) but in many instances, she just wouldn't have gotten credit for the difficult variation if she never actually achieved the position.  A lot of skaters do not get low enough in the pancake or don't stay low enough for all 8 revolutions -- that sit spin definition is strict!

[Sk8tmum]

It'd actually be an intermediate position, not an upright (unless she really was upright) but in many instances, she just wouldn't have gotten credit for the difficult variation if she never actually achieved the position.  A lot of skaters do not get low enough in the pancake or don't stay low enough for all 8 revolutions -- that sit spin definition is strict!

If the initial sit wasn't a sit, then, it would be an Upright spin, and the pancake wouldn't be called as an intermediate position ... that's where I was going with that.

A sit spin that doesn't "sit" is called a Usp on the detail sheet - leaving to my favorite, the flying sit spin that doesn't sit:

FUsp.

The first time I saw it on a detail sheet I blinked a bit ... I knew the sit wasn't GREAT, but, really, that was a BIT over the top! 

On which note ... skatingmum2, I don't know what you get with your skater's competition reports, but, we get detail sheets that show the "codes" for each of the elements, which is where my kids find out that the FSSp turned into ... FUSp. Do you know what your kid's spin was called as?

[pamplemousse]

Actually, according to the ISU definitions, it should be called as an intermediate position or, more commonly, seen as a failed attempt at a difficult variation and not given credit.  An upright allows a slight bend in the knee, but certainly nothing close to the knee bend on an attempted sit (unless it was a really bad attempt!).  In the case of a FSSp becoming a FUSp, I would say you lucked out -- a strict technical specialist could have decided that the basic position was never achieved and given it no level, since those are technically the rules.  I have seen several cases of dashes on protocol sheets because a kid couldn't get low enough.

This could be a case of different regions/different countries, though.

[Sk8ing Wizard]

I have a quick, spin-related question: What are some difficult variations in a "sit-sideways" position?

[techskater]

Could you be more specific?  Do you mean the one that Ashley Wagner achieves where the core is twisted but free foot is in traditional sit position or the broken leg variety?

[Sk8ing Wizard]

There are 3 types of difficult variations you can achieve credit for. Sit forward (clam/pancake or cannonball for example) sit behind (back tuck for example) and sit sideways, which I dont have an example for, and that is my question. I hope that makes sense...just because that's what I took from the reading on spin features I did.

[pamplemousse]

Broken leg is the only one that's used regularly.

[Sk8ing Wizard]

Ok, cool, thanks so much.

[FigureSpins]

Never heard the term "sit sideways."  Sounds like something you do at a bar, lol.

Chowskates has a great sit-into-broken-leg-sit-spin move: blink and you miss the transition!

http://www.youtube.com/user/chowskates#p/u/37/tC5_L3yyCDs

Is this what you mean by "sit sideways?"

Most of the for IJS qualifications discussed at PSA conferences are based on TORSO positions, not free leg.
The bellybutton is considered the "arrow" and it needs to clearly face in the right direction to get a good call.

Ex: Camel spin positions:

. Bellybutton down: Basic Camel
. Bellybutton sideways: Doughnut or stacked Camel
. Bellybutton up: Layover

The skater cannot simply turn their shoulders to face upwards for a Layover, their torso has to be facing upward as well.


Edit: I stand corrected - the USFSA Tech Notification 70 uses the term "Sit Sideways (SS)"
New to me!

[skatingmum2]

I think it was called a sit spin but she didn't get into the pancake position immediately. She's watched the DVD now - and thinks it was about 6 revolutions in the pancake position although more in general sit spin position. I must figure out how to post a photograph as she does get really low - skirt brushing on the ice and leg quite straight.
I can't remember hte abbreviations - something like CoSsp something or other - I get muddled. (I think she was meant though to do camel, sit spin, y-balance spin - but - her music started so softly she missed the first few bars till they turned up the sound so she cut it short and left the first bit out - although she still felt she may have got level 3. I gave her the stuff to read though and she understands much more about holding the difficult position longer).

[Skittl1321]

Never heard the term "sit sideways."  Sounds like something you do at a bar, lol.

Most of the for IJS qualifications discussed at PSA conferences are based on TORSO positions, not free leg.
The bellybutton is considered the "arrow" and it needs to clearly face in the right direction to get a good call.

Edit: I stand corrected - the USFSA Tech Notification 70 uses the term "Sit Sideways (SS)"
New to me!

I think the belly button rule is JUST for camels.  Otherwise it seems the A-spin/butt spin would be a camel because the belly-button is down, but it fits the upright definition of "any position with extended or almost extended skating leg that is not a camel" because the leg is not in camel position.

For sit spin, the indicator of sit front, sit back, or sit sideways seems to be the leg.  
There is also a picture in the technical manual of a sit forward that the torso is clearly sideways, so it can't be torso position. http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf (second picture on top row of page 13.  It took me a long time to figure out how that was different from 3rd picture on second row, and I think it has to be the leg.)  
It also seems like the sit behind legs are very similar to the sit sideways legs, but they all cross over the spinning leg, where sit sideways is open.


Lastly- holy crap I-spin layback.  I really want to know how that skater is.

[Isk8NYC]

Sorry, I didn't write that clearly - the bulk of the discussion centered around bellybutton and camel positions.

[isakswings]

This discussion is interesting. Dd is working on new spins. Back camel, broken leg spin, back tuck(I THINK it is called that), Biellmann, Layback(she does not like this spin...lol), cannonball in addition to a few other spins. She'll be moving up to Preliminary after the first of the year so they are working on spins. She can get pretty low in her regular sit spin position and her broken leg and cannonball. Back sit has always been a challenge for her. She does it better alone then in a combo. EEK! She managed about 4-5 revs in her broken leg before she fell. Not too bad. Coming out of it is a bit harder for her right now... today was her second day doing it. Eventhough she is currently pre-pre working on moving up to prelim, should she be working at trying to increase her speed and revs now? She can get going pretty fast on some spins. She has a decent pancake and it looks like it won't be long before she has a decent broken leg spin(for her level). Also, she doesn't have a consistant fly spin(can do a flying camel but doesn't work on it enough). At the prelim level, how important is it for her to have a flying spin? Obviously she is not at a high level, but working on getting solid spins with good technique would be a good thing.