spins

[twokidsskatemom]

Any ideas for level 2 or  3 solo spins for someone that isnt super flexible?My DD last comp had 10 juv girls and 9 of them had that Bielmen not  my DD!!..Juv has one solo spin and one combo. Combo is fine, but would love some ideas!

[fsk8r]

Can't you increase the level by holding the position for 8+ revs?

[Sk8tmum]

Cross foot, sideways leaning, pancake, broken leg, shotgun, or a difficult entry (can she do a death drop?).

My kids can't do a Biellmann because they aren't flexible "that way" although my DD's coach is working towards her being able to do it over the long term, however, a pancake spin is achievable as they ARE flexible "that way" and it brings them up a level.

Because of the "one use of a feature" rule, it's getting harder to get the levels on the spins.  What helped us in being creative was to go on YouTube and look for Stephane Lambiel and Jeff Buttle, and to use their spin variants.  Some of Stephane's spins are quite achievable if you watch them and break them down, and they look very impressive.

[jumpingbeansmom]

Any ideas for level 2 or  3 solo spins for someone that isnt super flexible?My DD last comp had 10 juv girls and 9 of them had that Bellman.. not my DD!!..Juv has one solo spin and one combo. Combo is fine, but would love some ideas!

My dd isn't good at layback or bielmann yet either.   She does a back camel, back pancake, and 'butt' spin for 8 revolutions (she is bent over holding her ankle-- I have no idea what it is really called)

[Isk8NYC]

I call it a "Butt Spin" too, lol.  The PC name is "A-Frame Spin."

Can't you increase the level by holding the position for 8+ revs?

Yes, but there are restrictions on the 8-revolution bullet/feature as of 2011-2012:

At least 8 rev. without changes in pos./variation, foot or edge (camel, difficult sit, layback, difficult upright), counts once per spin

http://www.usfsa.org/Content/2011-12%20Levels%20of%20Difficulty%20with%20Element%20Codes%20-%20Singles.pdf

[twokidsskatemom]

Cross foot, sideways leaning, pancake, broken leg, shotgun, or a difficult entry (can she do a death drop?).

My kids can't do a Biellmann because they aren't flexible "that way" although my DD's coach is working towards her being able to do it over the long term, however, a pancake spin is achievable as they ARE flexible "that way" and it brings them up a level.

Because of the "one use of a feature" rule, it's getting harder to get the levels on the spins.  What helped us in being creative was to go on YouTube and look for Stephane Lambiel and Jeff Buttle, and to use their spin variants.  Some of Stephane's spins are quite achievable if you watch them and break them down, and they look very impressive.

Thanks for the youtube suggestion! She has a good pancake/clam which is part of her combo.  Her solo was layback.haircutter but  then it got changed to a fly camel. She used to have an ok grab after her camel but she hasn't done it in awhile,and it needs at least one other feature. Thanks for the idea!!

[twokidsskatemom]

My dd isn't good at layback or bielmann yet either.   She does a back camel, back pancake, and 'butt' spin for 8 revolutions (she is bent over holding her ankle-- I have no idea what it is really called)

That is her combo right? I'm looking for the solo spin suggestions!

[jjane45]

I call it a "Butt Spin" too, lol.  The PC name is "A-Frame Spin."

Good to know. I thought "butt spin" is the alternate ending of a sit spin, with the skater's butt actually on the ice for a few revolutions. (popular among low level skaters at an ice show last year)

[jumpingbeansmom]

That is her combo right? I'm looking for the solo spin suggestions!

Oh yeah, sorry duh... Her solo is a broken leg (from a fly) and a tuck

[jumpingbeansmom]

Good to know. I thought "butt spin" is the alternate ending of a sit spin, with the skater's butt actually on the ice for a few revolutions. (popular among low level skaters at an ice show last year)

Oh, good to know, and I am glad you know what I am talking about!!

[Sk8tmum]

Oh, good to know, and I am glad you know what I am talking about!!

The "A-Frame" is considered to be an upright spin, thus, it is simply a difficult variation on an upright spin.  Emanuel Sandhu used to do a beautiful one.  For kids with more than two spins in their programs, it adds another "variant" the upright position, as each "feature" only gets used once as count towards a level. Frankly, I don't like it - and neither do my kids, and they have resisted pressure to do it - and I have heard (more than) a few judges indicate that they find it unattractive, although they do mark it down for the bullet.

[techskater]

A frame (butt spin, aka "bar stool") is a difficult variation of an upright spin (and imho very unattractive).  For all spins (other than basic upright) you can hold them for 8.  For a sit spin, you can tuck, pancake, cannonball, broken leg, twist, or change the edge.  For a camel, you can catch, reverse catch, layover, or change the edge.  For laybacks, you can twist, haircutter, and Bielman.

[twokidsskatemom]

A frame (butt spin, aka "bar stool") is a difficult variation of an upright spin (and imho very unattractive).  For all spins (other than basic upright) you can hold them for 8.  For a sit spin, you can tuck, pancake, cannonball, broken leg, twist, or change the edge.  For a camel, you can catch, reverse catch, layover, or change the edge.  For laybacks, you can twist, haircutter, and Bielman.

Thank you !!!!!!

[Sk8nlizard]

If she doesn't already use a back entry, she could do a back sit held for eight with maybe a back tuck or a cannonball or a pancake and that would be a 3. If she already has a back entry it could start with a death drop and hold for 8 then a difficult variation and she would have a three as well.

For a flying camel, I believe the fly doesnt count as a difficult variation so she could hold for eight and then do a doughnut to a pulled up position and that would be a three. She could also do a layover.

[twokidsskatemom]

If she doesn't already use a back entry, she could do a back sit held for eight with maybe a back tuck or a cannonball or a pancake and that would be a 3. If she already has a back entry it could start with a death drop and hold for 8 then a difficult variation and she would have a three as well.

For a flying camel, I believe the fly doesnt count as a difficult variation so she could hold for eight and then do a doughnut to a pulled up position and that would be a three. She could also do a layover.

Thanks for the suggestions!The coach we work with here doesnt know enough about IJS to know what spins get the most points.

[pamplemousse]

If she doesn't already use a back entry, she could do a back sit held for eight with maybe a back tuck or a cannonball or a pancake and that would be a 3. If she already has a back entry it could start with a death drop and hold for 8 then a difficult variation and she would have a three as well.

As of this year, hold for 8 is only a feature for sit if it is in a difficult variation.  So she would have to go immediately into the cannonball/pancake/etc. and then hold that for 8 to get a level 3.

[Sk8tmum]

As of this year, hold for 8 is only a feature for sit if it is in a difficult variation.  So she would have to go immediately into the cannonball/pancake/etc. and then hold that for 8 to get a level 3.

And I recently saw a number of shocked coaches/skaters who were used to pulling L3/L4 spins and had them called as L1 or at best L2 as a result of this and the other changes.  Step sequences are also far more difficult to get "levels" on this year. 

[Sk8tmum]

This is from the most recent ISU communication:


IV. LEVELS OF DIFFICULTY, SINGLE SKATING
Number of features for Levels: 2 for Level 2, 3 for Level 3, 4 for Level 4
All Spins
1) A difficult variation in a basic or (for spin combinations only) in an intermediate position
2) Another difficult variation in a basic position which must be significantly different from
the first one and:
● spin in one position with change of foot – on different foot than the first one
● spin combination without change of foot – in different position than the first one
● spin combination with change of foot – on different foot and in different position than the
first one
3) Change of foot executed by jump
4) Backward entrance/Difficult variation of flying entrance/Landing on the same foot as
take-off or changing foot on landing in a Flying Sit Spin
5) Clear change of edge in sit (only from backward inside to forward outside), camel,
Layback and Biellmann position
6) All 3 basic positions on both feet
7) Both directions immediately following each other in sit or camel spin
At least 8 rev. without changes in pos./variation, foot or edge (camel, difficult sit, layback,
difficult upright), counts once per spin
Additional features for the Layback spin:
9) One clear change of position backwards-sideways or reverse, at least 3 rev. in each
position (counts also if the Layback spin is a part of any other spin)
10) Biellmann position after Layback spin (SP – after 8 revolutions in layback spin)
Backward and flying entry, change of edge and any type of difficult spin variation count as
features that can increase the Level only once per program (in the first spin they are
attempted).
For Spin Combinations with change of foot all 3 basic positions are mandatory for
Levels 2 – 4 in both Short Program and Free Skating.
For Spins with change of foot at least one basic position on each foot is mandatory for
Levels 2 – 4 in Free Skating. In case this requirement is not fulfilled in Short Program,
the spin will have no Level and consequently no value.
In any spin with change of foot the maximum number of features attained on one foot
is two (2).

It's not the easiest to decode. However, note that the clear change of edge is a level "bullet" - that's one that our spin coach has been working on with our skaters quite aggressively.

[techskater]

As of this year, hold for 8 is only a feature for sit if it is in a difficult variation.  So she would have to go immediately into the cannonball/pancake/etc. and then hold that for 8 to get a level 3.

Actually, must hold the basic position for at least 2 revs before the difficult variaton to get any level called...

[pamplemousse]

Actually, must hold the basic position for at least 2 revs before the difficult variaton to get any level called...

"Basic position" just refers to anything that isn't an intermediate position.  A pancake or cannonball that is low enough to be considered a variation of a sit spin fulfills the criteria of a basic position.  The same goes for a donut (camel) or an I-spin or A-frame (upright) -- the skater doesn't need to do the plain version of the basic position first, or at all.

[FigureSpins]

"Basic position" just refers to anything that isn't an intermediate position.  A pancake or cannonball that is low enough to be considered a variation of a sit spin fulfills the criteria of a basic position.  The same goes for a donut (camel) or an I-spin or A-frame (upright) -- the skater doesn't need to do the plain version of the basic position first, or at all.

That's was my understanding as well.

One thing to note is that the IJS caller isn't starting the revolution count until after the first full revolution of the position since it's considered to be part of the entry (solo) or the transition (combo)  So count carefully - a lot of skaters give points away by not doing the required number of revolutions (3 or because they're counting the first rev but the caller is not.

I have my skaters go for ten revolutions on standalone spins, so if they lose count, it's okay. 
They're low-level, so it doesn't matter since they're not being judged under IJS, but it doesn't hurt to teach them how to count early, lol.

[jumpingbeansmom]

That's was my understanding as well.

One thing to note is that the IJS caller isn't starting the revolution count until after the first full revolution of the position since it's considered to be part of the entry (solo) or the transition (combo)  So count carefully - a lot of skaters give points away by not doing the required number of revolutions (3 or because they're counting the first rev but the caller is not.

I have my skaters go for ten revolutions on standalone spins, so if they lose count, it's okay. 
They're low-level, so it doesn't matter since they're not being judged under IJS, but it doesn't hurt to teach them how to count early, lol.

My daughter does this ALL the time....drives me and her coaches nuts....hopefully soon she will see the light after being bitten a few times!

[Sk8tmum]

My daughter does this ALL the time....drives me and her coaches nuts....hopefully soon she will see the light after being bitten a few times!

Do you have video of her? If so, then run it in super slo mo (or frame by frame) and have her count the revs from when she was in control of the position (which can be quite different from when she 'assumed the position') and watching for intermediate "slips out of position" - skaters will do this, for example, when they rise up slightly out of the sit to regain control.  It can be an eyeopening experience.  Many skaters miss that "in control" aspect in terms of having the revs count. 

[Sk8nlizard]

I once heard that counting spin revolutions was like birthdays, you aren't born and automatically one year old, you have to wait an entire 12 months. So, when you get into the position you can't just start at one you have to go a whole revolution before you start counting. I use that analogy with my students a lot, and they seem to understand it. Now getting in the correct position and staying there is a whole different matter...

[Isk8NYC]

   That's a brilliant analogy!  I love it!