Would you be unhappy about this, and what would you say, or would you?

[jumpingbeansmom]

My dd competed this weekend.  It wasn't a good weekend for her at all.    I generally stay out of it between my skater and her coaches, but a couple of things happened that I feel like maybe I need to say something about.   First, for one of her programs, when they went out for the 5 minute warm up, she forgot to take off her guards, and fell hard on the ice right out the door.   She skated through it all, but it wasn't good, later I saw her knee was all bruised up and swollen from it.   She was pretty embarrassed as well and even the judges said something about it in the critique...gah.  Her coach was WITH her, and apparently didn't notice either...is it unreasonable to expect a coach to be paying attention to that kind of thing?

Then in her other program (juv), they made a ton of changes THIS week.  I went with it, but one of the things they did was put her axel as part of a combo (double flip axel).   I felt like it was risky as sometimes she flubs the double flip, and she did, so she didn't get the axel in at all (required element) and thus got no credit for the last double she DID make, very nicely I might add.  Not only that, she almost ALWAYS has gotten +1 GOE on her axel and the judges didn't even get to see it.    She even asked her coach before what she should do if she messed up the flip, but he didn't really give her an answer and told her not to worry about it-- she even knew she needed the axel.

I really try to keep things between her coaches and her, I really do, but I am wondering about these things, I really love her coaches overall and they have taken her very far in a very short time... WWYD?

[Sierra]

As for the guards.. stuff happens. I wouldn't blame it on the coach. I've noticed that coaches tend to pay more attention to guards and such when the skater is new at competing, which obviously your skater has a lot of experience competing and competes at a higher level. Coaches and skaters aren't perfect, so stuff like forgetting to take guards off is going to happen once in a while.

Sorry to hear about your dd's not-so-successful weekend 

[Sk8tmum]

Tons of changes right before a comp are normal; I've seen (we've had) programs rechoreo'd at the rink on the day.  At this time of the season, which for us is NOT competition time, it's training time ... but, for other coaches and their skaters, if they do compete, it's to try out stuff - often risky stuff, stuff that is a stretch - to see how it flys in a competition.  They're building for the runup to the important comps for next year.

Sounds like the coaches were doing a stretch objective for her.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  It's part of the process.

As for the guards ... it's happens, but, I'll bet your kid will never do it again. Good for her for making it through the skate.

I'd stay out of it. Your kid should ask the questions if the questions need to be asked; she's the skater.  You're the mom. If she's competing at this level and is planning on moving on through the competitive ranks ... asking the coaches questions about strategy is appropriate, and helps the skater mature in terms of taking ownership of her own skating. Now, if you have the kind of relationship where the coaches share and discuss everything with you: you could ask for the reasoning behind it, but, make sure it's positioned as curiosity instead of accusatory

[jumpingbeansmom]

I'd stay out of it. Your kid should ask the questions if the questions need to be asked; she's the skater.  You're the mom. If she's competing at this level and is planning on moving on through the competitive ranks ... asking the coaches questions about strategy is appropriate, and helps the skater mature in terms of taking ownership of her own skating.

She did ask about the axel, she was asking if she should put it on the last double lutz, which is also not that hard for her, if she misses the flip, and the coach kind of put her off, and didn't really answer her.    Perhaps I should encourage her to talk to the coach about it?

[Sk8tmum]

She did ask about the axel, she was asking if she should put it on the last double lutz, which is also not that hard for her, if she misses the flip, and the coach kind of put her off, and didn't really answer her.    Perhaps I should encourage her to talk to the coach about it?

Yup. She should. If she's going to progress in the sport, she needs to start working towards understanding the strategy behind coaching, choreography, etc. And that type of discussion shows a skater is maturing and, as I said, taking ownership. But, at a competition, the coach may not have the time/or may not want to discuss, program changes - it's usually fairly hectic and pressured. Now, your kid has to be sure to ask it maturely, not, again, in an accusatory way ... some kids will, unfortunately!!!!!

[fsk8r]

I agree that your DD should take ownership for her skating and ask questions about choreography, but perhaps these questions could be asked more regularly at practice? I muffed a combination in a run through recently and my coach used it as a teaching opportunity by asking me what I should have done. I skated the rest of the program clean but had been thinking about whether I should add a combination on one of the other single jumps. I didn't which provided my coach the teaching opportunity.
My last test program though, she choreographed it and then told me all the optional choreography for when things went wrong! There was quite a lot to remember, if A goes wrong then do A at B, change C to D, etc... I decided that it was better to skate clean than to use the options, but I thought it was a good idea to make sure I was aware of what were the required elements and where the best places to make alterations are.

I hope you DD's knee recovers quickly it's not nice having a fall just before you skate. I had something similar happen at a synchro competition. The coach had actually said guards off to the team so everyone had taken them off. One lady didn't hear or was chatting and forgot. She stepped on the ice for practice ice and fell. We then had confusion as someone went out to help her off. It really rattled the whole team.

[Schmeck]

Most likely your daughter will never forget about her guards again, so no need to bother the coach about it. 

The missed combo jump scenario should have been addressed way before the competition.  If you feel the need to second guess your skater's coaches, perhaps it is time to find her new coaches that you have confidence in?

[jumpingbeansmom]

Most likely your daughter will never forget about her guards again, so no need to bother the coach about it. 

The missed combo jump scenario should have been addressed way before the competition.  If you feel the need to second guess your skater's coaches, perhaps it is time to find her new coaches that you have confidence in?

I usuallly wouldn't and don't second guess them, but this change of jumps came this week, so it didn't really occur to me or my dd to ask about it until the last minute when she realized axel was required and what if she didn't make the combo?

[Hanca]

I wouldn't blame the coach for not noticing of the guards. Your daughter is relatively high level so she should know better. I know she just forgot, but she needs to take responsibility for that.   

[jumpingbeansmom]

I wouldn't blame the coach for not noticing of the guards. Your daughter is relatively high level so she should know better. I know she just forgot, but she needs to take responsibility for that.   

I guess she said somehow, in her mind, she really though she'd already taken them off-- and no she won't do THAT again. 

[kssk8fan]

All of these things are why our kids skate in competitions prior to regional and above.  It's rare that lessons aren't learned in the pre-season.

[jumpingbeansmom]

All of these things are why our kids skate in competitions prior to regional and above.  It's rare that lessons aren't learned in the pre-season.

Very true...we have had this issue with spins.   She is clearly more than able to hold the spins longer, but just counts to exactly 8-- sometimes she gets burned and the judges see 7, or her butt isn't low enough and she doesn't know it etc...so in her first program this weekend she got totally burned (she really did do 8 revolutions -- saw the video but the judges saw 7- they told her in the critique).  Her coaches (and me) have been telling her to HOLD them longer,  leave cushion for counting error, for her and judges...make it no question that it was 8 or more.   Finally, when she did the 2nd program she 'got' it and held them, and alas, all level 3! 

[Isk8NYC]

In listening to the technical calls at US Nationals, a number of us remarked that the unofficial "caller" started counting AFTER the first revolution of a spin position.  Now, I'm impressed at anyone who can count revolutions, so I thought I was miscounting revs while watching it live.

Several times, the "caller" said that they don't count the first revolution of a position because it's considered part of the transition.  It was most clear on the 8-revolution features - the skater received score credit for the position change, but lost the "feature."

In listening to several program critiques at a coaches' seminar, the same comment about missing by one revolution came up again and again, and they said that the "first rev doesn't count."  So, it's not enough to count eights revs in position, you have to start counting AFTER the spin position goes around once, hence the "one for safety" effort.

[fsk8r]

In listening to the technical calls at US Nationals, a number of us remarked that the unofficial "caller" started counting AFTER the first revolution of a spin position.  Now, I'm impressed at anyone who can count revolutions, so I thought I was miscounting revs while watching it live.

Several times, the "caller" said that they don't count the first revolution of a position because it's considered part of the transition.  It was most clear on the 8-revolution features - the skater received score credit for the position change, but lost the "feature."

In listening to several program critiques at a coaches' seminar, the same comment about missing by one revolution came up again and again, and they said that the "first rev doesn't count."  So, it's not enough to count eights revs in position, you have to start counting AFTER the spin position goes around once, hence the "one for safety" effort.

Thanks for telling us all that one. I've never heard it before, but it does explain what happened on my first ever test. The requirements are for 3 revs in the upright position. My coach had told me to count 5 revs before pulling out (demonstrates that you're definitely doing 5). The judge commented I was 1/2 a revolution short on my 3. I still passed, but I never worked out how my counting and the judges could be so different. It's clear to me now that the judges didn't count the first revolution or so, hence the difference in rev counts.

However for the IJS competitions, surely there's video replay for the Tech Controller to count revolutions on? Although I believe they have to make a decision as the program is skated to watch the replay. (Although I think possibly at some of the lower level IJS competitions I've been to they don't necessarily have the video)

[Isk8NYC]

The audio stream I was listening to was an "unofficial" tech caller during an IJS event, so reviewing the video would probably result in the same count.  First rev is considered a transition and doesn't count.

From what they said over the headset, the tech caller would mark the spin for review if it appeared to be short a rev or two, then they'd use video to confirm later and make their notations.

[fsk8r]

The audio stream I was listening to was an "unofficial" tech caller during an IJS event, so reviewing the video would probably result in the same count.  First rev is considered a transition and doesn't count.

From what they said over the headset, the tech caller would mark the spin for review if it appeared to be short a rev or two, then they'd use video to confirm later and make their notations.

From your understanding of this first rev being a transition, if we use a simple sit spin as an example, I know some skaters go into it from an upright and slowly bend down over a couple of revs. The sit position doesn't count until the position has been acquired. As a skater I'd then start counting when I know I've stopped bending my knee, but presumably the tech controller would wait another 1 from that point before counting. It's a sort of check to make sure there isn't going to be another change in position because they don't know whether I'm going to keep moving?

It's little tips like this which skaters need to remember when skating a program.  Did you pick up anything else from listening over the headset?

[Isk8NYC]

Sit spins have changed in the last 10 years.  You no longer see them start upright and then gracefully drop down - skaters go in on a deeply bent knee now so as to get into position as quickly as possible.  Ditto for sit spins in combinations, or any in-combination spin: the skaters don't waste any time on transitions.

Most of the skatebug chatter was about the spins, but they also emphasized the clean takeoffs and landings with full rotation.  Sometimes, the pseudo-caller would question a jump, but whenever he sounded iffy about it, the official score ended up not showing an underrotation.

[fsk8r]

Most of the skatebug chatter was about the spins, but they also emphasized the clean takeoffs and landings with full rotation.  Sometimes, the pseudo-caller would question a jump, but whenever he sounded iffy about it, the official score ended up not showing an underrotation.

The full rotation bit is interesting in terms of what they're looking at to me, as the last two British Adult championships have been IJS for all levels (all the way down to Pre-Bronze) and a lot of adults have not had their single jumps called, despite having passed tests with them. I suspect we have the pseudo-caller in charge as there's a lot of underrotation.
(But this is thread drift while being really interesting).

[jumpingbeansmom]

Sit spins have changed in the last 10 years.  You no longer see them start upright and then gracefully drop down - skaters go in on a deeply bent knee now so as to get into position as quickly as possible.  Ditto for sit spins in combinations, or any in-combination spin: the skaters don't waste any time on transitions.

Most of the skatebug chatter was about the spins, but they also emphasized the clean takeoffs and landings with full rotation.  Sometimes, the pseudo-caller would question a jump, but whenever he sounded iffy about it, the official score ended up not showing an underrotation.

I find this all fascinating, my daughter really does drop down into position very quickly on sit variations. 

[Sk8tmum]

You need to obtain and have control of the position before revs are counted. Therefore, until they know that you have "control" and you are set into your position, you do not have your revs counted. General advice is to always add at least 1 rev to when you think you have your count.  Note also that if you wobble out of it a bit, they will stop counting the revs; that's the kid who gets down there, then loses balance a bit and rises up to get control, then sinks back down ... it may be slight, but, you lose the rev count at the moment of loss of control.

[Hanca]

Sit spins have changed in the last 10 years.  You no longer see them start upright and then gracefully drop down - skaters go in on a deeply bent knee now so as to get into position as quickly as possible. 

I see at my rink both versions. Some skaters go from upright down, and some are getting into spin straight from down (on the deeply bent knee, the stomach nearly laying on the thigh of the deep outside edge).

I noticed that male skaters do it more from the upright (at least this is at my rink, which obviously does not mean that it is general rule), whereas female skaters do it from the deep bent knee (start much lower). When I started learning sit spin, it seemed to be easier (for balance) to go from upright, but I did not have the muscles to go low enough. Then my coach changed the entry to start lower and suddenly my sit spin was lower than it had ever been. So I think those who drop from upright can do it because they have the muscles for it, and generally male do have more muscle mass than female (although I am sure there are some females who can afford to go from upright).  But as I said, it was just my observation and it probably won't apply for elite skaters.  

[jumpingbeansmom]

Coach apologized to daughter for not being more proactive and having a plan with her on the axel thing....all is good!   Thanks everyone.

[fsk8r]

Coach apologized to daughter for not being more proactive and having a plan with her on the axel thing....all is good!   Thanks everyone.

Sounds like she was feeling as guilty as you were worried. Hopefully lesson learnt on all sides.