Removing the first toe pick tooth: questions.

[Query]

Has anyone else tried removing a toe pick tooth? What were the results?

Do most ice dancers sometimes rely on the first toe pick to stop forwards roll?

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Background:

I used to use and love MK Dance blades. Probably should move back to them.

For now, i Have multiple pairs of Ultima Dance runners that fit removable runner blade mounts. It is too hard for me to roll forward to make clean turns, and there is much less space to roll between the sweet spot and the toe pick, so I keep bumping against the toe pick without meaning too. Both 3-turns and spins are hard to do. (My current instructor says 3-turns should not touch the toe pick.)

(Dance blades are not designed for spins and jumps. But I want to stay with one blade pair, and I'll never be good enough at freestyle to merit freestyle boots and blades.)

I finally experimented with one runner pair.

I changed the spin rocker (the reduced radius = increased curvature rocker length that is forwards of the sweet spot) to about that of MK Dance blades, and reduced the height of the first (furthest back on the blade) tooth on each blade so I could roll closer to the toe pick without touching it to the ice.

Tried the modified blades for a few hours. I loved the results on 3-turns. Easy to roll forwards to a point where turns occur easily. Much cleaner and more symmetric edges, because I feel more control getting there. It's easier to initiate, so I don't need as much body english, and so it is easier to check turns too. Even brackets, beyond my skating level, were sometimes clean.

But I still knocked against the pick on spins.

Next step was to ground off the first tooth altogether, on each blade.

After skating on the blades for 1.5 hours, the result is failure. The next available tooth is in reach with effort - waltz jumps and half flips still work. Some turns are still clean. But I apparently sometimes rely on the toe pick to stop excess forwards roll. When I roll a little too far forwards and to the side, the blade slips sideways, and I skid or fall over. There is lots of space available for spins. But I sometimes lose control of the spin, start to rock, and skid or fall over again.

[AgnesNitt]

I had Mike grind down half my drop pick back when I was doing figures. It's still there, just smaller. Since I don't jump or spin, I don't need much of one.

[sarahspins]

Angling (but not removing) the drag pick might work for you... if you have extra runners it might be worth a shot, but I wouldn't recommend removing ALL of it, as you figured out.. having skated on figure blades (for figures) with no drag pick, some things are really impossible without that drag pick (we used to try all kinds of things on them, most of which didn't work), and once it's gone, it's gone, you can't really put it back.

Dance blades are not designed for jumps but there is generally no reason you can't spin in them - free dance incorporates spin elements.

I would suspect that the problem for you is more the difference in rocker.. or potentially technique, but you shouldn't need to dramatically modify the blades to make them work.

[Query]

I had already trimmed off the back of the pick, which worked well.

Adjusting any other tooth wouldn't affect me, except in weight - I'm not advanced enough to use the rest of the toe picik.

I tried the blades again yesterday. I didn't fall over again, and the three turns came back. But I don't spin well. As soon as I got dizzy, I would lose control without the drag pick. It is possible a skater who spins better wouldn't have this problem. I need to tap against the the drag pick to stabilize my spins.

I guess blade shape changes should be made a small fraction of a mm at a time, with several days worth of skating between. A long drawn out process.

OK Agnes. You complained when I started a thread on not filling boots with silicone to create a snugger fit, that I hadn't done damage to my boots, only to my home-made duct tape ones. Well, I probably have made this pair of blade runners unusable. The runners cost me $110/pair, and are no longer replaceable, so that counts as a substantial error.

For the present, I remounted my old MK Dance blades. I had worn them out enough that the toe pick interfered with some things, and had destroyed the sweet spot. I didn't know enough at the time to adjust those things. Maybe I will later. For now, I will spend a month or two getting used to them again. Perhaps my time is better spent improving skating skills than playing with blade shapes.

The MK Dance blades feel a lot different than the Ultima Dance, before or after my changes. In particular, the somewhat smaller rocker radius means it is much easier to rock through the blade, and there is a lot more room to roll between where the sweet spot should be and the toe pick, to use for spins and twizzles.

Ultima blades are like edgy whitewater playboats. You can initiate tricks quickly with absolutely minimum motion. That may be great for a skilled figure skater, but for a perpetual beginner like me, a more beginner-friendly blade like the MK Dance, which requires more rocker roll to initiate tricks, and doesn't require motion be controlled to as high a level of precision, is much better.

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Alas, MK Dance blades are not beginner-friendly in price.

I wonder if there are any cheap MK Dance clone blades. Ultima Dance are advertised have the properties of MK Dance, and are cheaper, but they definitely aren't similar in rocker profile and feel.

I've tried rental skates with true beginner blades, and didn't like them. I'm not sure I spent enough time to get used to them, but they seemed too stable and it was difficult to reach the toe picks. A little too wide and slow too, and the tails are too long.

[sarahspins]

Riedell (Eclipse Blades ) has a new dance blade out... it looks similar, slimline with the same 7' rocker.... I think it is around $235.  Not cheap by any means but still still much less than the MK dance.

http://eclipseblades.com/dance.html

[blue111moon]

For now, I will spend a month or two getting used to them again. Perhaps my time is better spent improving skating skills than playing with blade shapes.

This is the best idea you've come up with.  Go with it.

[Query]

Riedell (Eclipse Blades ) has a new dance blade out... it looks similar, slimline with the same 7' rocker.... I think it is around $235.  Not cheap by any means but still still much less than the MK dance.

Wow!

What's different between Eclipse Dance and MK Dance?

Could be a bad time for pro shop owners with expensive blades in stock.

I love it that Riedell explains a little about the differences in features between blades.

[Isk8NYC]

http://skatingforums.com/index.php/topic,1165.0.html

[JimStanmore]

Query, I am surprised you were able to skate with the pick ground down.  With no hollow or real edges in the area of the blade behind the pick (NSZ - No Sharpening Zone) there is nothing to grip the ice and I was wondering how you solved that.  Investigation showed me that if you put the blade on a table and rock it forward until the pick touches, there should be between 1 5/16" - 2 1/16" between the bottom pick and where the blade touches.  Less than that and the blade is considered unusable for jumping or spinning.

I experimented with an old pair of Jackson Freestyles that had the rocker slightly flattened in order to make spinning easier.  I took the drag pick down to get the minimum 1 5/16" and I was sliding all over the place on tight turns.  My conclusion from that enterprise was to put it all aside and spend the time getting a solid spin technique before experimenting further.  Scientifically, I can't tell if it is lack of strong muscle memory or equipment at this point.

As I have improved in my turns, I have found that I no longer consciously think about rolling up to the rocker.  When I roll on purpose now, the pick drags.  It is now more effective to set the desired edge and straighten my knee at 3-turn time, as opposed to trying to point my foot (roll up to the toe.)  it is difficult to control the right amount of roll because an little 1/8" difference in the blade contact point causes a massive difference in turn radius around the blade sweet spot. On the other hand, straightening my leg is a lot easier to control and is more a matter of reaching up than pushing down. (My ballet teacher drastically changed my life when he told me to lift the knee cap instead of straightening the leg.)

Due to continuous turn out exercises my glutes got to the point that they could turn my foot quicker and with more authority.  Somehow, that has made even slower three turns smoother and easier.  It has also helped to spend a period of each session focusing on the feeling on the bottom of my soles during turns and maneuvers.  Teaching my brain to know where the blade is through the very sensitive nerves on the soles of your feet.

Also, I only use the picks for toe jumps.  In spinning, I try for the sweet spot for silent, no scratch spinning:

http://www.icoachskating.com/site.php/spgs/read/vt_nipe_011/
(One of their free videos)


So, like you, I have stopped fooling with my equipment and started working on my technique.  A favorite quote, "Are you wearing the boots or are they wearing you?" comes to mind here.  Oh, and do not look down when spinning.  Not only will it throw that 20+ lb head off the center line, it will make you unbelievable dizzy very quickly.  I have learned to check my circles after skating back from the checkout.  Looking at the top of the hockey glass has helped also.
 BTW, this is not beating up on you.  I just went through this and had my own personal epiphany - just sharing a part of my journey, for what it is worth.

http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/Blade_Wellness_Gauge.html
http://www.vesc.ca/blades.htm

[Query]

Jim, I sharpened a hollow into the place where the tooth was removed, so there was no sideways skid.

I guess you got the NSZ stuff from Sid Broadbent. Most 8' main rocker blades fail his test even when new, because they typically have longer spin rocker radii too. I.E., not everyone agrees with Sid.

I'll try the "lifting the kneecap" trick.

[AgnesNitt]

(My ballet teacher drastically changed my life when he told me to lift the knee cap instead of straightening the leg.)

So how does this work? Do you just tense the quads?

[Query]

I tried the raise kneecap thing yesterday and today.

Of course we always do this - muscles pull, not push. So it must be mostly psychological.

But thinking of it in terms of muscles, rather than in terms of pushing my bones, my weight shifted a little forwards. I felt very slightly stronger, trying to come out of a (partial) shoot-the-duck position. I tried it on a leg press machine, and might have had 10 pounds extra maximum strength. I also tried thinking of pulling my elbow towards my body on a bench press machine, and might possibly have found it slightly easier to lift a weight, and push-ups also felt slightly easier.

I couldn't detect anything different during on-ice 3 turns and spin entries, but maybe I haven't tried long enough.

What do you feel, Jim?