Shelf Life for Skating Programs

[FigureSpins]

Sierra's statement that she's competed three times over 18 months with three different programs at three different levels made me wonder how much mileage skaters get out of programs these days. 

From my viewpoint:

Standard-track skaters start working on programs in the Spring/Summer, intending to have them refined before Regionals in the Fall.  They usually compete in 3-4 competitions during the season as well.

For adults, given the later season, programs start being put into play in December/January. However, the elite adult skater I'm friendly with at our rink has two programs: an artistic and a freeskate.  She creates one program new each year and uses it at various competitions leading up to the qualifying comps.

Basic Skills skaters, however, seem to have a new program for every competition, lol.  I have some students who discard their programs as soon as the awards ceremony is over, regardless of what I say.

What do others do/see?

[Clarice]

My daughter changed her program when she moved up a level and needed a longer one, usually once a year.  Sometimes she kept a program and just lengthened it, and so used it for more than a year.  She pretty much always kept the same programs for an entire season.

As an adult competitor, I generally kept my programs for two years, since I don't compete all that often.  In fact, now that I'm doing dance pretty much exclusively, I'll be hearing the same music for a good long time!

[MimiG]

In general, I like to have new programs each year for skaters that are competing frequently and every other year for those that compete only once or twice. In both cases, I update elements as skills progress. If a skater is also doing showcase/adult interp., I'll generally alternate creating new programs each season. For compulsory element events, I'll create a new one each time, unless the elements are identical to the last competition's event.

I'd consider holding a program over an extra season if I felt it was necessary (say, if a new program just wasn't coming together, or an injury or other concern kept the skater off the ice for a while), but I probably wouldn't want to create a new one mid-season. It's hard work getting a new program choreographed & competition-ready.

[Sierra]

One of those comps was a Basic Skills- I didn't actually have a program for that. It was the event where the kids go out to the judges and are asked to perform the elements one  by one.

I'm using the same music for my last program and my current program. The elements had to be changed since I was moving way up. I use the same entry steps into first spin, but from there on it's all changed. I'll be keeping the same program for my comps up to May/June. I'll also learn an ISI program soon, too- I'll be doing one or two ISI comps. But it'll be the same program, it just needs another 20 seconds of music & elements.
I don't know how long I'm keeping this one. Comps will start up again here in September, so it just depends on whether I'll be competitive with an axel, and possibly doubles by then.

[Sk8tmum]

When you get to the level of doing a short and a long, there is something to be said for alternating years for updating them. I.E., Y1 change the long, Y2, change the short, Y3 change the long ...

It also depends on the reception of the program. Programs can be changed/discarded/revamped intrayear if it appears that it doesn't play well before the judges (easier with PCS scores to determine).

If a skater changes levels, additional "length" of music can be added, and elements changed. Not a big deal, as long as the program still suits the skater maturity-wise (which would be easier at the adult level, I would think!)

It also depends on whether you use a choreographer/other costs involved.  Frankly, we like to keep a program for a couple of years due to the cost of the choreographer, music editing, and costuming.  Fortunately, my kids realize that $$$$ aren't at their beck and call, and understand, as does their coach, that keeping a program for 2 years means a significant cost savings.  I'm very grateful that my kids, encouraged by their coach, monitor the "money" aspect of the sport, and appreciate how much we spend - including hunting for cost savings in many ways - as it shows a nice sense of maturity vs. what I see in some other kids - who constantly demand more and more spending because "well, they HAVE to have it ... etc etc etc ... or Mommy/Daddy just doesn't GET it, and I HAVE to have it so that I can ... etc etc etc." Thus, although it might be "nice" to have a new program and costume for short and long annually, they don't ask for it, unlike some of the other skaters in our club, because they are respectful of finances.

Sigh. Rambling again.

[jumpingbeansmom]

When you get to the level of doing a short and a long, there is something to be said for alternating years for updating them. I.E., Y1 change the long, Y2, change the short, Y3 change the long ...

This is sort of our approach....dd (10) is doing juvenile and an intermediate short, so we have the same juvenile music as last year (she moved up toward the end of the year) with more challenging elements, footwork etc, and a new intermediate short.   She will likely keep the short next year.

[Sierra]

When you get to the level of doing a short and a long, there is something to be said for alternating years for updating them. I.E., Y1 change the long, Y2, change the short, Y3 change the long ...

It also depends on the reception of the program. Programs can be changed/discarded/revamped intrayear if it appears that it doesn't play well before the judges (easier with PCS scores to determine).

If a skater changes levels, additional "length" of music can be added, and elements changed. Not a big deal, as long as the program still suits the skater maturity-wise (which would be easier at the adult level, I would think!)

It also depends on whether you use a choreographer/other costs involved.  Frankly, we like to keep a program for a couple of years due to the cost of the choreographer, music editing, and costuming.  Fortunately, my kids realize that $$$$ aren't at their beck and call, and understand, as does their coach, that keeping a program for 2 years means a significant cost savings.  I'm very grateful that my kids, encouraged by their coach, monitor the "money" aspect of the sport, and appreciate how much we spend - including hunting for cost savings in many ways - as it shows a nice sense of maturity vs. what I see in some other kids - who constantly demand more and more spending because "well, they HAVE to have it ... etc etc etc ... or Mommy/Daddy just doesn't GET it, and I HAVE to have it so that I can ... etc etc etc." Thus, although it might be "nice" to have a new program and costume for short and long annually, they don't ask for it, unlike some of the other skaters in our club, because they are respectful of finances.

Sigh. Rambling again.

That makes sense. I think the way my program is now it could be easily changed to accommodate higher levels, just by changing the rotation of the jumps and revamping footwork/spins. Now that I look at it that way I may well keep the same program for a good couple of years- why waste limited practice time learning a new one. It'll save me money, too, on the dress, since I'm the one who pays for dresses.

[fsk8r]

When is a program a new program? I've had all of my programs rebuilt several times while the music stayed the same. And last year I ended up with two very similar programs (one for testing requirements and another for competition which all happened within a couple of weeks) but we used different music as the coach was worried I might get confused.

The old competition program is currently being dusted off and turned into the next test program. However, it's now not resembling the original program as my coach wants to highlight things that I've improved in my skating and the test requirements don't match the competition ones.

[FigureSpins]

Obviously, if everything in the program stays the same, you've reused the program.  I also think if you're keeping the choreography and program pattern the same, replacing elements (jumps, spins, etc.), then that's reusing the program.  Starting from scratch with new music or completely changing the skating for existing music isn't reusing it.

I miss the old days of ISI.  During the season (Nov - May), there was a competition at some rink in NY/NJ every four to six weeks and the entry fee would only be $20/1st event.  If you skated additional events, it was $10 per event!  We could skate our programs in front of an audience repeatedly and the improvement in our program skating was tangible. 

Today, with $50/event (or more) costs, it's a huge investment to compete more than once or twice a season.  It's a tough sell to convince a skating parent that spending $200 on entry fees is an investment in their skating presentation skills.  They think that synchro is enough performance/competition experience, but they're not the same thing.  It's very different to get out there in front of an audience with that whole rink to yourself.

[fsk8r]

Obviously, if everything in the program stays the same, you've reused the program.  I also think if you're keeping the choreography and program pattern the same, replacing elements (jumps, spins, etc.), then that's reusing the program.  Starting from scratch with new music or completely changing the skating for existing music isn't reusing it.

I miss the old days of ISI.  During the season (Nov - May), there was a competition at some rink in NY/NJ every four to six weeks and the entry fee would only be $20/1st event.  If you skated additional events, it was $10 per event!  We could skate our programs in front of an audience repeatedly and the improvement in our program skating was tangible. 

Today, with $50/event (or more) costs, it's a huge investment to compete more than once or twice a season.  It's a tough sell to convince a skating parent that spending $200 on entry fees is an investment in their skating presentation skills.  They think that synchro is enough performance/competition experience, but they're not the same thing.  It's very different to get out there in front of an audience with that whole rink to yourself.

I've noticed this with the kids. The ones who trek around the country competing end up doing better because their presentation skills are so much more practiced than those who stick to the local competitions. I wouldn't say they're necessarily any better skaters, because take away their programs and their basics may be the same or worse, but come a competition the program is very polished and assured. However, it's a huge investment not only in entry fees, but hotels and travel costs as well.

However the most noticable difference in presentation skills was come the Christmas show. One year the lead role was given to a skater newly returned from touring with one of the ice shows. While she complained about what the shows did to her skating, her presentation skills were so much superior to the top level skater at the rink.

As an adult we just don't get the opportunities to compete the kids do. So unless you've already mastered the presentation skills from another walk of life (or just don't get nervous), it takes a really long time to get those skills... (I'm still working at it, but on 2 or 3 competitions a year which all happen within a 2 or 3 month window it's taking a long time).

Interesting your comments on reusing the program. I think my current one, can in some respects be called reusing as the basic format has remained the same. The ending is now completely different (although is still jump pass, spin, but the choreography has changed), but now the step sequence has just been rebuilt, it's now not looking very like the original one. It started as a reuse the program but it's evolved into a whole new program. I wonder how many others end up with things like that?

[jumpingbeansmom]

Obviously, if everything in the program stays the same, you've reused the program.  I also think if you're keeping the choreography and program pattern It's a tough sell to convince a skating parent that spending $200 on entry fees is an investment in their skating presentation skills.  They think that synchro is enough performance/competition experience, but they're not the same thing.  It's very different to get out there in front of an audience with that whole rink to yourself.

I think this is so true...my dd tends to nervous when she competes...and so this year, we are doing a lot of competitions leading up to regionals to try and get her more used to it and perhaps less nervous--- she stiffens up when she gets nervous and it shows, especially in her jumps...gah

[FigureSpins]

This could be an opportunity for skating clubs to help out, if they can get the ice time.   

Hosting a regular (monthly?) "Show It Off!" exhibition in front of real people, would help calm those jitters.  You'd need sanctions, of course.  Charge a fee to cover the ice and sanction costs.  No theme, no setup/breakdown, no spotlights, volunteers to act as music announcer/moderator, line 'em up in order and just have them skate, one after the other.  You could put an announcement in the newspaper, inviting outsiders to come watch for a $1 donation to the club.

To make it work, you have announce it early so that coaches, parents and skaters know about it in advance and can prepare.  It has to happen more than once.  It takes cooperation and scheduling to make one night, so if someone has a conflict, it would be great if you could say "Well, just sign up for the next one."

Lake Placid skating does something like this during their summer camp season - there's a "Friday Night" show every week.

[jumpingbeansmom]

This could be an opportunity for skating clubs to help out, if they can get the ice time.   

Hosting a regular (monthly?) "Show It Off!" exhibition in front of real people, would help calm those jitters.  You'd need sanctions, of course.  Charge a fee to cover the ice and sanction costs.  No theme, no setup/breakdown, no spotlights, volunteers to act as music announcer/moderator, line 'em up in order and just have them skate, one after the other.  You could put an announcement in the newspaper, inviting outsiders to come watch for a $1 donation to the club.

To make it work, you have announce it early so that coaches, parents and skaters know about it in advance and can prepare.  It has to happen more than once.  It takes cooperation and scheduling to make one night, so if someone has a conflict, it would be great if you could say "Well, just sign up for the next one."

Lake Placid skating does something like this during their summer camp season - there's a "Friday Night" show every week.

Our rink does this too--- AFTER hockey is done for the season

[drskater]

A related issue:

I've seen some awful skating parents rag on coaches about changing programs to suit their unrealistic fantasies about their skater. Programs need to flexible and I doubt that any are set in stone; many are "dumbed" down and good ones can be built up to accommodate new skills and or requirements. What annoys my Pro are those skaters/parents who think their child is losing competitions because of a "bad" program. Worse, a few skaters will add on little impromptu flourishes (like some hand waving) thinking that they will look more polished, only to discover that their body is completely out of position for the next element. But what really makes the Pro  furious are those skaters who insist on new programs and then don't practice, or scratch their competition or whatever and then come back to her asking for another new program.

[Kim to the Max]

Around here the trend when people move from Juv to Intermediate is to keep the juv program as their short and get a new Intermediate.

Folks tend to keep their programs/music for a while usually changing infrequently, either when they move up a level or the music is no longer suitable for their age, or they just have had the program for a while and it is a little stale. Folks will add to the music if needed though.

Me, I don't compete, so I keep my music until I test (and pass) a level, then I find new music. I usually have my music for over a year as I prepare for a freestyle test (darn jumps!).

[Sk8tmum]

yes, we have a similar progression when they move from "our" Juvenile to "our" pre-novice: the Juvie program becomes the PN short.

What drives our pros nuts is the parent who prints off the detail sheets from a bunch of comps and shows the pro "if you had just had my skater do THIS" she would have won "so, add in another 2S here or give her a Level 3 Spin", or "look at this choreo mark, the program must be bad" - without understanding relative abilities, jumps acquired, etc.  The breakdown seems to make some think that they are experts in program assembly, without realizing that the program has be assembled based on a skater's abilities and yearly plan!!!

Oh yeah - and parents who pick the music because "they like it" without realizing that it's unskateable or just a bad choice ... then, grouse when the program doesn't work out well in the end.

[jjane45]

Our rink does this too--- AFTER hockey is done for the season

FigureSpins beats me on posting it, I was exactly thinking about "Friday exhibitions" after the comment on additional competitions and program polish. My rink does it once a year.

ETA: Xanboni has an article which is related to this idea. The "Friday exhibition" could probably find ice time by extending or using part of a poorly attended public session.

Extended public skate
A few times a year, add a half hour or 40 minutes to public skate, so you can fit in an ice cut and an exhibition between the first and second hours. Invite local skating champions, the rink's own Nationals qualifiers, the synchro team (and the synchro team from the local college), skating "names" who are home for the holidays, groups/soloists from an upcoming rink ice show or competition, and even the top hockey team to do performances or demonstrations for 15 to 20 minutes.

[isakswings]

When my daughter was competing in the basic skills levels, she typically had the same music for the entire season but the program content would change according to the level she was competing at. We used her current music for one program in basic skills and she has since used the same music and program for her last 3 competitions. So, she competed with this music four times and and 3 of those competitions were at the same level with pretty much the same program(a few variations but the bulk of it was the same). My skater IS getting new music and programs for the new season. Mostly because she is out growing her current dresses. Typically, she uses the same music/programs for a season and then we start over. Now that she is out of basic skills, she uses the same program more then once. Are there skaters outside of basic skills who re-do programs for every competition?

[fsk8r]

FigureSpins beats me on posting it, I was exactly thinking about "Friday exhibitions" after the comment on additional competitions and program polish. My rink does it once a year.

ETA: Xanboni has an article which is related to this idea. The "Friday exhibition" could probably find ice time by extending or using part of a poorly attended public session.

What's a poorly attended public session? My rink has NO space on the timetable. We don't even have quiet freestyles! I'd love to have an exhibition concept to go on, but the 15min dance interval once a week is under threat, we ain't going to get more ice for the minority.

[FigureSpins]

FigureSpins beats me on posting it, I was exactly thinking about "Friday exhibitions" after the comment on additional competitions and program polish. My rink does it once a year.

Our club does it once a year, before Regionals, but they only announce it a few weeks before, so anyone who wasn't working towards Regionals isn't ready.  They wonder why it's the same few skaters who sign up for it - very rarely do they have anyone else register.

I like the weekly exhibitions.  We were supposed to them monthly during the last quarter of 2010, but it was never set up by the Skating Director.

[jjane45]

What's a poorly attended public session? My rink has NO space on the timetable. We don't even have quiet freestyles!

Well, our rink's Saturday night public skate was allegedly losing money, they moved it from main rink to studio (%@#%@#$%@4) and sold the time slot to local hockey team. PR really matters.

Our club does it once a year, before Regionals, but they only announce it a few weeks before, so anyone who wasn't working towards Regionals isn't ready.  They wonder why it's the same few skaters who sign up for it - very rarely do they have anyone else register.

Again advance planning and PR really matter. But if it's consistently held before Regionals, shouldn't regulars expect it next year if they were not ready this year?

I found out about ours very late last year. But if I really want to get on the exhibition this year, there is plenty of time.

[FigureSpins]

Yes, but Regionals is really early in the season for rec skaters who plan to compete in the Spring.  I gave my skating parents a heads up in advance, saying we'd reuse the programs they already had, but none of my skaters signed up.  Timing is important.

[jjane45]

Timing is important.

Thank you for the insight! Rinks really should do it more frequently.

[nicklaszlo]

Well, our rink's Saturday night public skate was allegedly losing money, they moved it from main rink to studio (%@#%@#$%@4) and sold the time slot to local hockey team. PR really matters.

That's not the story I heard.  I heard that local university's hockey team offered a lot of money to get some ice time.  It is part of University President's initiative to improve town-gown relations by moving sports teams closer to campus.  The city council recently endorsed this initiative - pep rallies in the town square and everything.  In the case of hockey it is backfiring.

Our rink loses money like crazy - it has about a 10% budget deficit, made up from tax dollars.  There are numerous sessions they could eliminate and sell to far away high school hockey teams.  But the city does not seem to make decisions that way.  Ice is allocated preferentially to local programs, like nearby high school hockey team and the skating school.

(I work at the university)

[jjane45]

Bump up because this is an interesting topic

I've only had one piece of music so far (ISI FS4 test, bronze FS test, exhibitions and show audition) and it will likely stay until I get tired or rink friends talk me out of it. The original soundtrack is long enough for long programs too, so no worries in that department.

Obviously, if everything in the program stays the same, you've reused the program.  I also think if you're keeping the choreography and program pattern the same, replacing elements (jumps, spins, etc.), then that's reusing the program.  Starting from scratch with new music or completely changing the skating for existing music isn't reusing it.

The jump and spin spots are 90% the same through out different iterations, lol.