So my boots have started to hint that perhaps I need to start throwing some money in the piggy bank for replacements. I'm currently in Jackson Competitor with Aspire blades. I'm leaning towards going with the Premier on the next go round, to add a little stiffness as I start working on additional jumps. I'm also debating the merits of upgrading blades to something like the Coronation Ace. The question is, do I upgrade both at the same time, or do I upgrade the boots and use the Aspire blades (they have plenty of life in them) for a while longer? I'd like to make the adjustment period as smooth as possible.
Coronation Ace isn't that aggressive of a blade. I don't see why that would be that huge of an issue.
If you were upgrading to a much stiffer boot and a blade with a more aggressive pick, then I'd probably say wait. It's what I'm doing right now :-)
Sometimes when the stiffer boots don't want to bend, they rock forwards on the ice putting you on the bigger pick, but the Ace should be fine with that boot. I say go for it, personally, but have you spoken to your coach about it?
We've discussed the blade, but she's open to other options on that because she is used to a different manufacturer and hasn't used the coronation ace herself. I had originally planned on mounting them to my current boots when we talked about it... but now the boots are becoming a problem, and she's out of town for a bit. Ack.
I don't think it would be too bad, especially if the blade isn't a huge change. Is the aspire a 7' or 8' rocker? I don't recall
Quote from: littlerain on August 12, 2014, 08:17:36 PM
I don't think it would be too bad, especially if the blade isn't a huge change. Is the aspire a 7' or 8' rocker? I don't recall
Aspire is an 8' rocker.
Following this thread with interest. Can someone explain the rocker size differences?
I am also getting new boots and have to decide on blade.
I use Coronation Ace btw and very comfy with them (On Reidell Royals, at the moment).
Larger rockers allow you to skate with more blade contact on the ice. It means you gain in stability and speed. Also, on jump takeoffs you can position your body optimally without falling off the edge as easily. The larger rocker also stabilizes jump landings for a lot of skaters.
A lot of coaches put lower level skaters on 7' blades because they have a more pronounced rocker and are easier to turn and spin on. But at high speeds a lesser skilled skater can feel out of control and some skater can more easily develop edge entry issues with those rockers because movement can more easily throw them off their edge. Turns and for work are easier on them.
With all the chronic flip/Lutz issues at the elite level, as well as skaters changing edge before their turns etc. I wonder if a change of thought is worth considering for a lot of coaches. On the flip side... Wilson and MK make no intermediate freestyle blades with an 8' rocker.
You can get a Carbon steel Gold Seal replica from Paramount for less than most others, though, so not that huge of an issue. Gold Star costs even less from them and if you're willing to go with Paramount I'd get that over the CorAce, MKPro, or Eclipse Mist since you can do almost anything on them, are a stronger/lighter blade, and they barely cost more.
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Going further back to basics, I'm going to tack a little more info onto Nate's reply. Nate explains some of the differences felt going to a larger rocker, but there my be some people who don't even know what a rocker is. I created this graphic showing the differences between the two most common rockers - 7 ft. and 8 ft. The graphic is approximately to scale.
Anyway, a rocker is the curve on the bottom of figure skating blades. They aren't flat on the bottom, and that permits three-turns, aids skating in circles, and assists other figure skating moves. But there are tradeoffs when choosing between them.
(Click the picture to see a larger version of it)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/rocker_skate_blade_anim.gif)
You can watch the rocker arc change in the animation. It's not a large change.
I also made an animation showing a close-up of the blade (mostly to scale), but it would have to be displayed very large to detect the differences between rockers. I didn't include it for practical reasons. I was surprised at how small the actual differences were between the two rockers. Having said that, it doesn't surprise me that small changes feel vastly different to the skater though.
I assume that an 8 foot rocker is more forgiving but less nimble than a 7 foot rocker? This would be the case if we were talking about the keel lines of small racing dinghies.
Hi everyone- we're just back from a nice long vacay.
Lutefisk- I think that's an excellent way of putting it, and Bill_S, that's a good diagram, thanks for putting it together.
Aren't Ultima blades mostly 8' rockers? I think someone told me they were designed that way, since most people eventually change over anyway, and it gets rid of the transition. He also told me that the quality on them is good, and he recommends them often. Given the inconsistency of Wilson/MK, and the fact that my own number should be up sometime soon for getting sketchy blades, Ultima's on the list for the next go-around.
Kinzie's Closet (https://www.kinziescloset.com/Compare_Ice_Skate_Blades.html (https://www.kinziescloset.com/Compare_Ice_Skate_Blades.html)) shows all Ultima blades with an 8 foot rocker. I suspect you are correct.
In terms of feel, I recall the time someone sharpened my blades and greatly flattened the rocker. The skates felt very, very fast, but I couldn't turn worth a hoot. That's my only experience to date, and it fits with the observations of others. I will probably try 8 foot blades on my next pair of skates, but I'm a little concerned about how it will affect my mediocre spins. I could always switch back if needed because my Aces have plenty of material left for sharpenings.
If I do switch, I'll post a new thread detailing my perceptions.
I did finally succeed with an animated graphic to show the blade differences between a 7 foot and an 8 foot rocker. I had to crop out the front part of the blade to show enough movement ...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/rocker_blade_tight_anim.gif)
Thanks! This was helpful in understanding what happens at the blade.
Hmm, anything that may help my 3-turns. Here today, gone tomorrow and back and forth! I have my measurements for Harlicks next week. Will discuss with fitter. Thanks for the explanations!
The turn itself is easier on a 7' rocker, but the entrance and exit edges would likely be easier (more stable, especially as speed increases) on an 8' rocker, so it's a tradeoff.
Once skaters get to IJS competition levels (Adult Gold, and maybe Intermediate or Juvenile for Standard track, I'm not so sure) the sureness and quality of the entrance and exit edges matter. If you fall off the exit edge too fast, the tuen can be invalidated, for example.
Also, balance, speed, and control affect your PCS. Better stability also allows you to do more complex choreo with more sureness, never mind step sequences and choreo sequences.
There are Elite Skaters on 7' blades, though. A small skater (in size, not age) may actually do much better in them, actually.
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According to this thread
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=0802b1e915a9341c67099149029afcec&topic=5740.msg65250#msg65250
everyone who one an Olympic medal in Sochi used MK blades, which, AFAIK, all have 7' rockers. (In fact, MK blades have won most of the Olympic figure skating medals for many years.)
So the empirical evidence supports elite athletes at the very top using 7' rockers, not 8'.
Of course, tradition and sponsorship are likely strong factors in elite blade choice.
They were in MK OR John Wilson blades, now both of HD Sports. John Wilson makes the Pattern 99s and Gold Seals, both of which have 8' rockers and are hugely popular at the elite levels.
Edited to say: Pattern 99s and Coronation Aces are the blades of choice for most of the skaters in my area, it seems! All of the above are good blades.
Quote from: Query on August 15, 2014, 01:43:09 PM
According to this thread
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=0802b1e915a9341c67099149029afcec&topic=5740.msg65250#msg65250
everyone who one an Olympic medal in Sochi used MK blades, which, AFAIK, all have 7' rockers. (In fact, MK blades have won most of the Olympic figure skating medals for many years.)
So the empirical evidence supports elite athletes at the very top using 7' rockers, not 8'.
Of course, tradition and sponsorship are likely strong factors in elite blade choice.
No offense. But that thread names skaters wearing a bunch of JW blades or replicas.
It also said JW OR MK, which is correct. Most wear the expensive ones not the cheaper clones.
Most wear JW blades, which are 8' rockered. Most clones are clones of JW blades and even many of the Phantom clones are 8' not 7' - they just clone the picks and general blade rocker shape, but not necessarily the radius.
Adelina Sotnikova wears a gold Seal blades, so your information is not correct. Hanyu wears Pattern 99 Revolution. Dennis Ten wears Pattern 99. Volosozhar and Trankov wear Gold Seals. Lipnitskata wears Gold Seals. Stolbova and Klimov wear Gold Seals. Yuna Kim wears Gold Seals. Savchenko and Szolchowy wear Gold Seals. Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold wear Pattern 99.
How many Sochi medalists is that? 2/3 Ladies, Entire Pairs Podium, 2/3 Men (Chan wears Phantoms)... Dance blades are 7' so they aren't a factor. Even going to the team competition, JW blades have a huge lead over MK and other 7' blades in Sochi, cause 90% of the skaters there use blades with an 8' radius.
I think that pretty much agrees with what I said. Especially when you look at all the other top level elites that didn't win medals that wear JW blades.
Polina Edmunds, Mao Asada, Daisuke Takahashi, Peter Liebers, etc.
MK was a lot more popular back in the 90s. I think a lot of ladies World medalists wore Phantoms or oth3r MK blades back then (Kwan and Lipinski, maybe Lu Chen). These days, not so much.
Some elites wear other brands but most of those are 8' rockered blades.
One thing that does interest me is how few skaters wear the a gold Star blade at the elite level. Gold Star is basically a higher end MK Professional, and a lot use that at the Intermediate level, so its interesting that most people move off that profile when they move to a higher level. Phantoms are like higher end visions, but are higher than MK Pro. Maybe it stems from people moving from Pro to Vision and then to Phantom, instead of moving from Pro to Gold Star in one jump.
It can't be the smaller pick, cause the Gold Seal has a small pick as well. Maybe the curvy rocker coupled with the smaller radius is too much for them?
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Quote from: Nate on August 14, 2014, 10:46:07 PM
There are Elite Skaters on 7' blades, though. A small skater (in size, not age) may actually do much better in them, actually.
Hmm, I find this interesting! What makes you say so? Am curious on your thoughts!
Quote from: littlerain on August 15, 2014, 11:29:19 PM
Hmm, I find this interesting! What makes you say so? Am curious on your thoughts!
A small skater can gain maneuverability and easier spinning ability (for more difficult positions, faster and more completed rotations) easy with the 7' Rocker, help them with footwork levels (since they're easier/faster to turn on), etc. while still having good stability because their Height (e.g. Center of Gravity), Weight/Body Mass, and Dimensions still allow the rocker to feel [more] stable to them even at higher speeds. I'm speaking generally, cause there are some smaller skaters who hate the curvy rockers on those aggressive blades (MK Pro, Gold Star). They don't need as much blade contact with the ice to as stable as a larger skater.
A larger skater will gain a lot of that, but may not feel as balanced/stable.
Also, even at same rocker radius, the rocker PROFILE has to be taken into account. Some blades, like an Gold Star have a very curved rocker while others like Pattern 99 are flatter with more complex rockers.
In the end it really depends on what the skater prefers, since not everyone is the same and every time you speak generally a contradiction is bound to pop up :-)
If your skater likes MK Professionals, one benefit of the 7' Rocker is that you can move straight to Gold Stars and avoid a lot - if not all - of the adjustment that a skater moving from Coronation Ace to Pattern 99 or Gold Seals would deal with. The Pro and Gold Stars are very similar in Rocker Profile and Shape, as well as in the toe pick. IIRC, Paramount lists the Professional and Gold Star as the same profile in their line of blades.
EDIT: Yes, they do - http://paramountskates.com/ourblades.php
EDIT: Carolina Kostner is a full grown woman now, and is rather tall compared to a lot of the pixies competing, and wears Gold Stars (Revolution now, I think), which contradicts what I say somewhat but also shows that some people will prefer what generally works best for them.
Oops. I read too quickly.
Even the MK Hall of fame (http://www.mkblades.com/hall-of-fame#)
Davis and White on MK Dance
Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir on MK Dance
Andrew Pjoe and Kaitlyn Weaver on MK Dance
Nathalie Pechalat and Fabian Bourzat on MK Dance
Alex Shibutani and Maia Shibutani on MK Dance
Penny Coomes and Nick Buckland on MK Dance
Nicole Orford and Thomas Williams on MK Dance Revolution
Patrick Chan on MK Phantom
Cecilia Toern on MK Phantom
Carolina Kostner on MK Gold Star Revolution
Mariah Bell on MK Gold Star Revolution Parabolic
also mentions
Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov on JW Gold Seal
Liadan Emmert on Parabolic (what type??)
So, I'm not sure what to conclude, other that there are still a fair number of 7' rocker elite skaters - but a lot of them are ice dancers on MK Dance.
But why don't ice dancers count? :(
Ice dancers are skaters too. (And the faster turns a shorter rocker blade might plausibly create are a big advantage there.)
Jackson Ultima should be winning all the competitions - because they give pro shops a better profit margin than MK and JW. And almost every pro shop likes them better, because they have better quality control, so shops don't have to shipping blades back as much for warpage, and sharpeners don't have to compensate as much for minor profile and sharpening defects. (Paramount too? I'm not sure.) (Some pro shops don't have the tools to sharpen Ultima Matrix or Paramount blades - but at the elite figure skating level, I don't think that is much of an issue.)
I wonder why the Riedell Eclipse line isn't more popular at the elite levels. They are still a bit cheaper.
Is it possible that HD Sports gives out lots of sponsorship money to elite skaters who win on their blades?
Dancers don't count because the vast majority will go with a 7' rocker because it's IJS and the need the maneuverability and the better rocker for twizzles. 8' rockers simply aren't agile enough for most of them.
Most MK and JW blades were designed way before IJS. Almost no elite dancers will skate on an 8' rocker.
Didn't mean it in a denigrating manner, but it's just not logical to even consider them when their discipline is so obviously biased to one type of blade...
Freestyle and pairs are a bit different in that respect. There are hardly any top level elite pairs or singles on MK blades. About 85-90% or more are on Wilson.
Eclipse, Ultima, and most high end Paramount blades are 8'.
I omitted skaters like Mariah Bell for the same reason I didn't name Nathan Chen.
You can get Ultima Elite (P99 profile) blades for $249 new (less if you find a shop who will beat the advertised price), while Eclipse Infinity is $345+ everywhere. I also don't like the rust prone picks they (Eclipse) have on them. The Titanium is more expensive than Matrix and top end Paramount blades. One advantage is Riedell can push them to skaters who buy boots from them.
I wouldn't personally consider a JW or MK blade past the intermediate level because their prices are scandalous and QC/consistency is so bad.
For lower or younger skaters I'd seriously think about the CorAce or MK Pro Paramounts, which are lighter and stronger than other blades in that class.
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Quote from: Nate on August 17, 2014, 12:00:26 AM
Dancers don't count because the vast majority will go with a 7' rocker because it's IJS and the need the maneuverability and the better rocker for twizzles. 8' rockers simply aren't agile enough for most of them.
Most MK and JW blades were designed way before IJS. Almost no elite dancers will skate on an 8' rocker.
Didn't mean it in a denigrating manner, but it's just not logical to even consider them when their discipline is so obviously biased to one type of blade...
Dancers don't count? LOL
Hmmm my SuperDance 99 (8 ft rocker, Pattern 99-type dance blade) must be the reason I can't do those fast twizzles!!
I tried the MK dance - two pairs actually - they were okay but... I think I want to try the Ultima Synchro next time (ooh, 8 ft rocker again!)
Everything you "asked" is upthread, read the posts.
The rest: I don't care. The conversation isn't about you, it was about what Elite Skaters preferred up until you made it about you - which makes the discussion uninteresting to me, so I'll dip out now.
Why I don't want to entertain that dialog should be obvious, but if you have a serious question about my aversion to it, feel free to PM and I'll kindly explain.
Have a great day.
Quote from: icedancer on August 17, 2014, 02:48:36 PM
Dancers don't count? LOL
Hmmm my SuperDance 99 (8 ft rocker, Pattern 99-type dance blade) must be the reason I can't do those fast twizzles!!
I tried the MK dance - two pairs actually - they were okay but... I think I want to try the Ultima Synchro next time (ooh, 8 ft rocker again!)
You can always start a thread about what blades you prefer and we can continue talking about what Elite Skaters prefer and why in this one...
Unless you're Tessa Virtue's internet persona.
Quote from: Nate on August 17, 2014, 04:04:40 PM
You can always start a thread about what blades you prefer and we can continue talking about what Elite Skaters prefer and why in this one...
Unless you're Tessa Virtue's internet persona.
Oh we talk about that over in the dance thread sometimes - it is interesting though isn't it?
Tessa Virtue LOL - I WISH :nvm: I pretty much love the way she skates....
Maybe someone should split off this conversation so we can resume the OP 's original conversation about upgrading boots and blades at the same time? Lol
I'm sure Nate was just enjoying himself poking a little fun ::>) at ice dancers. Surely he knows perfectly well how silly it is to design blades to be a bit more stable for a few milliseconds of jump landings. :) If only IJS would bring the artistry of Dance to Freestyle, we could be well rid of those 8' rockers! :angel:
Returning to the original topic, it appears that pretty much all common reasonably high level blades (like my worn out MK Dance, and the (old style Matrix interchangeable) Ultima Dance, Ultima Synchro and Ultima Surpreme blades I'm returning to, have their mounting holes in almost exactly the same place. They also are all designed (in my size) so the back of the front mounting plate is a little more than 1/2" behind the sweet spot, and the front of the front mounting plate goes through about the back two teeth of the toe pick. (Though the back teeth are a bit further forward in beginner skates - e.g., on your Aspire blades the second tooth extends forwards a bit of the front mounting plate, if the one I just looked at in a store is typical.)
In other words, aside from rocker lengths and toe picks, a minor things like side honing that don't affect this level blade, the blades are all going to pretty much fit the same on your boots.
So you can safely just buy new boots alone, and not have to worry that if and when you switch blades, you will need new boots to match them. You may not even need to fill in the old holes when you switch - and if you do, it's not that big a deal.
I did need to shim the blades, because the planes of the mounting plates are a bit different. I did that very easily, by adding a few strips of athletic tape to the back mounting plates, until they fit the boots without pressure. (I had white athletic tape handy, which doesn't match my black boots. Better to match colors.)
For me at least, the difference in spin rockers is the main difference between MK and Ultima blades - because I spend most of my time at the ball of the foot, or at or in front of the sweet spot. And the stuff that is most difficult is all around the sweet spot. So the main rocker length doesn't matter that much. To me.
People who use the back or middle of the blade for critical things may care more. E.g., if you are still stuck in freestyle, and need to land jumps, you might care. Which is why it is relevant to this thread to bring in the Dance/Freestyle thing.
In an effort not to high-jack the original topic here, I'm going to open a new thread that asks questions about the differences between dance, synchro and freestyle blades. All you smart people are welcome to come educate me.
Quote from: Nate on August 17, 2014, 12:00:26 AMI wouldn't personally consider a JW or MK blade past the intermediate level because their prices are scandalous
Depends where you are in the world! ;) Not a lot of price difference between equivalent Ultima, MK and JW blades here! Not sure eclipse are even sold inthe UK!
I don't like waiting on blades because of the extra holes you can end up with in the boot. I'm rather temperamental about my mounting though. Even a mm off seems to destroy everything cause it feels like inches in my body.
My blades felt flawless then as the boot started to bend more I noticed my left blade is too far in. Instead of drilling more holes, I'm going to wait for the new blades and then make sure it's right on that boot before permanently mounting them.
If all your blades come from the same manufacturer then that is less of an issue, like Query said at same boot length you can often reuse the same hokes for the new blades. If you're going from MK Pro to Ultima Freestyle then I'm not sure if the holes will be in the same spots. But I'll know somewhat soon.
All the blades Query mentioned are from Ultima ☺ That makes it a ton easier. At that point you only have to worry about holes getting stripped, and that can be dealt with somewhat easily.
I'm getting Ultima cause the edges are super hard and if I can drive 1.5 hours for sharoening every 6 weeks instead of 4, that would be a huge gain for me!
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Quote from: taka on August 17, 2014, 06:53:20 PM
Depends where you are in the world! ;) Not a lot of price difference between equivalent Ultima, MK and JW blades here! Not sure eclipse are even sold inthe UK!
Is that a Pro Shop or retailer price.
I think if you can Order Ultima Elite for $249 from the USA or Canada it will still be a lot cheaper to pay international shipping or whatever than pay $440-470 for JW Pattern 99's/MK Phantoms, or $505-540 for Gold Seals/Stars.
Assuming they ship internationally.
I tried a pair of Eclipse Pinnacles and it was the heaviest blade I've ever had on my boots.
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Quote from: Nate on August 18, 2014, 12:18:23 AM
All the blades Query mentioned are from Ultima ☺...
Actually, the MK Dance aren't Ultima. (: A moderately experienced fitter told me that all the figure skate blades he knew have approximately the same hole positions. But a more experienced fitter said that if you are super picky, maybe not - sometimes even blades of the same size and model have slightly different countersink centers, so you would get a slightly stabler mount, if you fill the holes first, or use different holes.
Holes can be filled. It's a pain, but it can be done.
Quote from: Query on August 18, 2014, 03:22:58 PM
Actually, the MK Dance aren't Ultima. (: A moderately experienced fitter told me that all the figure skate blades he knew have approximately the same hole positions. But a more experienced fitter said that if you are super picky, maybe not - sometimes even blades of the same size and model have slightly different countersink centers, so you would get a slightly stabler mount, if you fill the holes first, or use different holes.
Holes can be filled. It's a pain, but it can be done.
Yes. I had holes plugged. My old boots has 23 holes in each boot if you count those, but even though they're still stuff enough for triples and quads you'd have a hard time finding a stable mounting due to how many holes have been put in them. Not sure if a fitter would want to drill right between two plugged holes, or in one side of a plugged hole. I guess they can be reused if you fill every hole when you mount them (I never did, which is why I was able to move it so much). I also changed blade sizes which gave me mounting room for free!
Missed the MK blade mention reading fast.
Most of the newer manufacturers (who use more up to date processes) are pretty good with putting the holes in the right spot.
Generally I've never seen a boot need more holes when the same model size blade is being put on the boot. In practically all cases the fitter just put it at the same spot and it took like 5 minutes or less to mount it (if they snow seal the blade plates).
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Quote from: Nate on August 18, 2014, 12:22:19 AM
Is that a Pro Shop or retailer price.
Not quite sure what you mean, sorry! Most boot/blade/skate sellers in the UK are smallish rink based shops, some of whom have websites too. Prices vary a bit (especially in Scotland where there are few places to buy anything so prices tend to be higher) but not that much. Cor aces and Ultima legacy and protege are the same price +/- a couple of quid for example.
Well that's a Pro Shop, and unless they sell at the cost they purchase for, they are almost never cheap.
Now that I know my boot size, I will never buy from a Pro Shop moving forwards because retailers are almost always cheaper and usually offer free shipping.
Some Pros will sell to you at cost ($175 MK Pros, $387 Pattern 99s). Most will sell at the MSRP to increase their margins ($210 MK Pros, $440 Pattern 99s).
Retailers are a lot more aggressive in their pricing, especially with brands like Ultima who leave them more room to profit off the sale ($249 Ultima Elite vs. $440 Pattern 99 or $345 Eclipse Infinity is a bit of a no brained to me).
Some will beat any advertised price, so it's only a matter of finding the cheapest place and then sending them the link to get an even better deal.
Between the boot and blades, you can save upwards of $150+ depending on what you buy.
Not as great for growing feet (sizes changing) or switching brands (sizing differences), but if you're an adult like me there is money to be saved there.
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Quote from: Nate on August 19, 2014, 01:36:57 AM
Well that's a Pro Shop, and unless they sell at the cost they purchase for, they are almost never cheap.
Now that I know my boot size, I will never buy from a Pro Shop moving forwards because retailers are almost always cheaper and usually offer free shipping.
Some Pros will sell to you at cost ($175 MK Pros, $387 Pattern 99s). Most will sell at the MSRP to increase their margins ($210 MK Pros, $440 Pattern 99s).
Retailers are a lot more aggressive in their pricing, especially with brands like Ultima who leave them more room to profit off the sale ($249 Ultima Elite vs. $440 Pattern 99 or $345 Eclipse Infinity is a bit of a no brained to me).
Some will beat any advertised price, so it's only a matter of finding the cheapest place and then sending them the link to get an even better deal.
Between the boot and blades, you can save upwards of $150+ depending on what you buy.
Not as great for growing feet (sizes changing) or switching brands (sizing differences), but if you're an adult like me there is money to be saved there.
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I'm guessing by retailers you're meaning shops in malls and online outlets. We don't have those options in the UK. There just isn't the demand to create the amount of competition you have in the US and quite often with shipping and customs duty and tax, a lot of the price differential gets taken away.
That is very unfortunate.
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Maybe HD Sports should open a factory near Detroit, so they can avoid importer fees and import duties, and ship to most U.S. and Canadian skaters more cheaply... If they sold direct, they could be really cheap.
------
Nate, I'm really impressed that you have so many screw holes in your boots! Help me to understand why: How many skating hours do your boots last? How many hours between sharpening, and how many sharpenings / blade lifetime? How many mounting plate holes do use / mounting?
How do you fill your holes? Wood plugs and Shoe Goo are mechanically similar to leather, and can support overlapping positions. Though you've got a LOT of holes - I'm not sure wood would hold together without adhesive.
Quote from: Query on August 19, 2014, 09:19:41 AM
Maybe HD Sports should open a factory near Detroit, so they can avoid importer fees and import duties, and ship to most U.S. and Canadian skaters more cheaply... If they sold direct, they could be really cheap.
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Nate, I'm really impressed that you have so many screw holes in your boots! Help me to understand why: How many skating hours do your boots last? How many hours between sharpening, and how many sharpenings / blade lifetime? How many mounting plate holes do use / mounting?
Currently I'm doing very minimal skating hours. I used to (when I got my Klingbeil S-2 Boots) do like 13-15 hours of Freestyle (Afternoon Freestyle everyday after work) and 4-5 Public Sessions a week, which is about 5 hours if you assume I'm wasting half the Public Session (which is probably close to accurate).
Back then I had 2 50 Minute Lessons/Week as well.
Right now I'm generally doing about 4-5 hours FS a week, maybe... With 2 30 minute lessons a week, when I'm actually skating actively. I barely ever do any Public Sessions at the moment.
Currently, I'm barely skating (0 hours past 7 days). My body is sore and recovering, and I'm content to let it do its thing right now, since I couldn't make the test session... When I get my new blades I'll finish breaking in these new boots and ramp my hours back up.
I am not sure how many hours my boots get, because I went between two pairs of Klingbeils and even wore a pair of Edea boots for a span of time. I had two pair of boots with Blades mounted at all times for the past year. I have more pairs of figure skating boots than I have shoes, atm :-(
Blades I don't tend to sharpen often. The first thing I do when I get on the ice is go through my stroking, all edges, and all turns forwards and backwards. If my blades are getting dull, I tend to know before I start jumping, spinning, running program [sections], or get in a lesson; because turns will be more difficult or start to skid a bit. At that point I'll either take them in on a day when I can make the drive, or if I'm really desperate I'll leave them with someone to get sharpened quickly without having to drive 1.5 hours.
QuoteHow do you fill your holes? Wood plugs and Shoe Goo are mechanically similar to leather, and can support overlapping positions. Though you've got a LOT of holes - I'm not sure wood would hold together without adhesive.
I have the Pro plug the holes, at a charge. I'm not sure what material is used, but it looks like Glue and Leather Plugs. I just looked on the bottom of the boot and one hole is right next to a plug (partly into the plugged portion of the boot) so I guess it's fine as long as a majority of them aren't sitting that way (then you worry about having the blade pull off the boot on a heavy landing). They were very well done. You can rub your fingernail over them and not even tell the difference between the leather and the plug.
He will be plugging some more soon, and I'm sure I'll get "that look."
Screw Holes come from adjusting the mount so much. I had tons of issues with that, since the Klingbeil boots didn't fit my foot correctly (my S2 boots were a little too wide, but my S1 boots were the correct width and had the same issue, the Last just all wrong for my foot type). I went through tons of insoles (each one aligns your foot a bit differently which means your blade must be mounted differently for decent balance) and two blade sizes (can't reuse same holes) so... A lot of drilling was done.
Usually the fitter put 3 screws in the front and one in the back (not counting the sliding screws that they temp mount with).
Sidewase-offset blades are used to approximately equalize the pressure between the left and right sides of the bottom of the foot. Because, if one side of the foot barely touches the insole, to some extant you lose control and have trouble skating on the edges on that side of the boot. I also got sore muscles trying to compensate.
The same can be done by modifying the insole - e.g., sanding down the high pressure side, or placing tape or adhesive foam under the low pressure side.
Don Klingbeil also told me that Klingbeil boots were not designed to be used with offset blades. He said that I had twisted my boots out of shape, because a (non-factory) fitter had mounted my blades offset. Perhaps you had the same issue, and they keep twisting more and more, due to those offsets.
Don favored customizations inside the boot (e.g., insole changes) to achieve the same purpose as blade offset. Don Klingbeil believed that if the boots were well fit, you didn't need to offset or do insole modification, because the insoles would already fit and balance your feet perfectly. Regrettably, I wasn't fit at the factory, and mistakes were made.
I speak in the past tense, because new management fired Don Klingbeil, and some of Klingbeil's top craftsmen left the company over the past year, which means boot designs may have changed.
Quote from: Meli on August 12, 2014, 12:41:48 AM
So my boots have started to hint that perhaps I need to start throwing some money in the piggy bank for replacements. I'm currently in Jackson Competitor with Aspire blades. I'm leaning towards going with the Premier on the next go round, to add a little stiffness as I start working on additional jumps. I'm also debating the merits of upgrading blades to something like the Coronation Ace. The question is, do I upgrade both at the same time, or do I upgrade the boots and use the Aspire blades (they have plenty of life in them) for a while longer? I'd like to make the adjustment period as smooth as possible.
To answer your initial question, I've usually upgraded both at the same time, mainly because it means that I have a back up should I not get along with the new skates (last time I got new skates my old ones sat on the bench, then in the locker room then the car but were never actually used), but also because it means I only have 1 adjustment period, which may be a bit longer, instead of 2.
Quote from: Query on August 20, 2014, 12:05:39 PM
Sidewase-offset blades are used to approximately equalize the pressure between the left and right sides of the bottom of the foot. Because, if one side of the foot barely touches the insole, to some extant you lose control and have trouble skating on the edges on that side of the boot. I also got sore muscles trying to compensate.
The same can be done by modifying the insole - e.g., sanding down the high pressure side, or placing tape or adhesive foam under the low pressure side.
Don Klingbeil also told me that Klingbeil boots were not designed to be used with offset blades. He said that I had twisted my boots out of shape, because a (non-factory) fitter had mounted my blades offset. Perhaps you had the same issue, and they keep twisting more and more, due to those offsets.
Don favored customizations inside the boot (e.g., insole changes) to achieve the same purpose as blade offset. Don Klingbeil believed that if the boots were well fit, you didn't need to offset or do insole modification, because the insoles would already fit and balance your feet perfectly. Regrettably, I wasn't fit at the factory, and mistakes were made.
I speak in the past tense, because new management fired Don Klingbeil, and some of Klingbeil's top craftsmen left the company over the past year, which means boot designs may have changed.
Klingbeils were not designed for end to end mounting.
The back of the boot is shaped almost identically to my SP-Teri's. The heel sits in almost the exact same position in the boot as in the SP-Teri's. The difference in heel height is miniscule. There is nothing about the design of their boot that tells me that they should require a different mount. My spins improved a ton after I moved from end-to-end to center-heel mounting on my Klingbeils, because the change in blade size placed the spin rocker at the proper position relative to my foot.
Offset mounting shouldn't mess the boot up. Even in custom boots you may need to offset, because custom boots do not account for foot or leg anatomy differences an offset blade can, nor does the average equipment a fitter use allow them to really see that. I am of the opinion that when fitting boots, the entire leg must be examined, not just the chins and below. The fitter should also examing the entire leg and see how it operates both in a sitting and standing position. My opinion, though.
Other Boot manufacturers like SP-Teri and Riedell updated their lasts a few times over the years. Klingbiel was really slow to catch up, and people stopped buying their stock boots as much (and only because they were riding the wave of their reputation from their Customs, and notable skaters like the Hughes sisters and Sasha Cohen wearing them). Boot makers can make the greatest customs ever, but to survive as a business you need decent stock boots that can fit a wide variety of feet, which Klingbiel wasn't so good at compared to some other manufacturers like Harlick and SP-Teri.
I always regretted not getting customs from them, considering I ended up having to buy two pairs of stock boots practically back to back in such a short span of time from them. Back then, I was not located so close to New York, though.
My first pair of decent skates were Graf Edmonton Specials with MK Gold Star blades. I had wanted SP Teri but the pro shop talked me into the Grafs and they had a fitting size in stock, so, instant gratification. The boots were comfortable for the most part, though I did have heel pain issues after a while, and needed bungalow pads due to ankle pain caused by the top edges. All in all though, the boots didn't feel like they constrained my skating, and as the Gold Stars (7' rocker) were all I knew aside from rental skates, I learned and progressed well. After a year and a half though, the boots were done, separating at the heels from the soles, and the layers splitting apart near the thread holes at the notches. Plus suede does not age well, and they didn't look nice anymore.
I then ordered custom Klingbeil's (black leather with natural brown soles) with gold-plated John Wilson Gold Seal (8' rocker) parabolic blades. Absolutely beautiful skates, I loved them! Adjusted quickly and found the combination to be far superior, continued progressing well for some time. I was able to spin better than ever, my best videoed spin was 40 revolutions nicely centered, and this was only 2 years after my first time on ice. 3 turns and all footwork felt much more controlled and I became completely convinced 8' rockers were much better for me.
Then life went in crazy directions and I stopped skating. The skates ended up stolen, and a few years later I ordered replacement Klingbeil's (this time with black soles) and black Paramount 440's. Still have those today, though my skating has only gotten worse due to neglect. The Paramount blades are also 8', though I don't know which competing blades their profile replicates. Interesting blades, I have not sharpened them in years and they are *still* too sharp to do snowplow stops (though T-stops are no issue), and do not rust. My opinion of them is better than it was initially, but my next skates, if I ever get any, will have Gold Seals again. The second pair of Klingbeil's is not as good as the first (these ones hurt my toes a lot if I try any toe jumps and leave my right ankle sore in the morning for about a week after I skate), and I don't like the black soles nearly as much. I'm not sure what to do for boots now, maybe SP Teri or Harlick? Or Avanta?
Anyways no regrets about changing both boots and blades at once. Adjustment was no different than it would have been with either individually or just breaking in another identical set.