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My instructor started teaching me a two-foot spin yesterday. It's not on the Adult curriculum yet, but I asked her to teach me the Basic skills as well, to fill the gaps in Adult 1-2. I really enjoyed the spin, though it made me pretty dizzy. She says it will pass with time, that I'll adjust to the spinning and not get as dizzy.

Anyway, I discovered that I'm definitely a clockwise spinner. I suspected I would be. Even though I'm right-handed, I do a lot of things left-handed, such as ironing, playing golf and softball, etc. I tried spinning counterclockwise and it just felt wrong. Like I was trying to spin against the gravitational spin of the earth itself. I know that sounds crazy, but that's how it felt.

So, how uncommon is it to spin clockwise? What kind of challenges will I be in for as a backwards spinner? Is there anything I need to know?

Also, is it important to practice spinning both directions? I know they make you learn most moves both ways. Even if you're stronger one way, you still have to learn the opposite way, too. Like two-foot turns, you have to do both clockwise and counterclockwise. But my instructor's guidebook didn't say you have to spin both directions to pass the test, so she wasn't sure if I need to learn to spin counterclockwise or not. It just feels so wrong spinning that way, but if it's important, I can try practicing that way. Maybe it will get easier with time.

Quote from: Orianna2000 on April 15, 2012, 01:26:01 PM
She says it will pass with time, that I'll adjust to the spinning and not get as dizzy.

I have never heard of anyone who does not get dizzy.  Lucinda Ruh, probably the best spinner ever, says she gets dizzy.  I think it is more a matter of getting used to skating while dizzy.

Quote from: Orianna2000 on April 15, 2012, 01:26:01 PM
So, how uncommon is it to spin clockwise? What kind of challenges will I be in for as a backwards spinner? Is there anything I need to know?

I am also clockwise dominant.  I would estimate about 5% of skaters go clockwise.  Mostly it makes no difference, but...

- You will need to inform each new coach you have
- If you skate in a team with a counter clockwise skater, you will be mirroring them instead of shadowing them when you spin.
- When you jump, you will probably turn the same way you spin.  When you learn lutz, this will be an issue because you cannot see where you are going in a lutz.  Usually skaters expect lutz to be performed in a particular corner of the rink, but your corner will be different from counterclockwise skaters, so people might stand in your way.

Quote from: Orianna2000 on April 15, 2012, 01:26:01 PM
Also, is it important to practice spinning both directions?

I think few skaters practice both directions.  Many coaches seem to discourage it as a waste of time.  But I think it is good to practice both ways to keep your body balanced.  A fair number of elite skaters can go both ways.  This also applies to jumps.

I'm another clockwise skater. I'm also left handed. My grandfather (who was also left handed) used to say it's a right handed world, get on with it. Meaning, people don't make allowances for you because you're in the minority. It means that I generally work at trying to appear "normal" (like the majority).
As a clockwise skater this means I try to skate with the flow as much as possible. I have less issues spinning than with jumping, although a lot of little kids who are buzzing around you don't realise that you're stepping into a spin because your setup is reversed to theirs. Equally they don't see you coming when you're setting up to jump. Any jump. Then again, they may just be blind...

One thing though with all footwork you need to be equally balanced so just because you have a preference for a clockwise turn it's very important to make the other one just as good even if it feels harder.

I think it has to be more than 5%.  There are enough elite CW skaters for it to be noticeable.  I have 3 out of 10 regular students who are regular CW's.  Most skaters who become proficient at spinning can manage at least basic one foot spins in the other direction to their preferred one.

And one nit to pick - you are not a "backwards" spinner; you are a ClockWise spinner!

Quote from: Orianna2000 on April 15, 2012, 01:26:01 PM
I tried spinning counterclockwise and it just felt wrong. Like I was trying to spin against the gravitational spin of the earth itself. I know that sounds crazy, but that's how it felt.

Heh.  I remember when I was first taught the two foot spin, that the teacher had every one in the class try each direction several times and then told us that one direction would feel much better than the other, and that indicated what direction we would spin (and jump) in.  I find it quite interesting that people can feel a strong preference so easily.  I suspect it relates to which foot you prefer to balance on - most people prefer to balance on the left foot when kicking a ball (meaning that the right foot does the kicking) and CCW spinners spin on the left foot when doing a basic one foot spin.

For the dizzy feeling, I think it does help some to adjust your eyes so that they are focused for things close to you (I focus on my hands) and the distant things go blurry, but as others have said, you learn to get used to being a bit dizzy after a spin.  In practice, if you're feeling very dizzy, you can do a couple of turns in the opposite direction to get yourself feeling better.

For how common it is, I read somewhere recently that about 10% of skaters prefer to spin CW.  I can't remember where I read it, though.

For most things learn in basic skills, you'll need to learn them in both directions (e.g. crossovers, three turns), so being a CW spinner will not be much of a factor.  When you move into Freestyle skills - jumps and spins - being a CW spinner will come into play.  In a group class, you may need to remind the instructor of your spin direction, so that they demonstrate jumps in the CW direction for you.

So it's uncommon but not totally rare.

Hopefully I'll be sticking with my instructor for a long while, as she works really well for me, but I'll try to remember to let my next coach know, if/when I change. I'm sure they'll figure it out pretty quickly, even if I forget, since the first time they see me spin, it'll be obvious.

As far as jumping goes, I'm planning to go into ice dancing, rather than freestyle skating. So, no major jumps for me. I don't know how many spins there are in ice dancing, but I'll try to practice them the opposite way, at least sometimes.

If you feel comfortable spinning clockwise then stick with it; I wouldn't really try mastering much more in both directions other than maybe a two or one foot spin, as most pro's agree its more of a waste of time to learn to spin and jump in both directions.  I know of one coach who can do most basic spins and single jumps excluding the lutz and axel in both directions, but she's said its just been over the course of her career, she didn't mean to learn them in both directions.  I can do a two foot spin and a one foot spin in both directions but this weirdly enough has developed over the course of this year teaching my LTS classes :) The dizzy feeling is worse for some than others but it truly gets better the more you spin and become more used to the feeling of being dizzy, lol if that makes sense!  I will usually go out and do a couple of spins after warming up with moves to get used to that dizzy feeling, but it has gone away a lot more over the years :) Your body just becomes more accustomed to being dizzy and it goes away faster.  You sound like your progressing very nicely!!  Keep up the good work :)

10% is what I heard too. And there are quite a few CW elite skaters out there that I would not call it "uncommon" either ;) Alissa Czizny, Johnny Weir, Ashley Wagner, Carolina Kostner, and the list goes on.

I found for me the "unnatural" forward crossover is really bad compared to the "natural" side. Which forward crossover do you prefer? (for backward it does not matter as much)

Quote from: Sk8Dreams on April 15, 2012, 07:36:34 PM
And one nit to pick - you are not a "backwards" spinner; you are a ClockWise spinner!

Right, editing the thread title may get you more responses ;)

Quote from: Orianna2000 on April 15, 2012, 08:31:06 PM
I don't know how many spins there are in ice dancing

Basically none.  For advanced dance, there are twizzles, which usually go both ways, and there are pair spins in free dance, where you would need to have a partner who can spin the same way as you.

There seems to be a lot of CW skaters on this forum. I am a CW skater also, but I can do a decent 2 foot spin in both directions. I don't think it would hurt for you to practice the 2 foot spin both ways. I've even had LTS coaches tell me its good to practice the non-rotational jumps on both sides (i.e., bunny hops, ballet jump, mazurka, etc...)

Anecdotal evidence suggests that spinning direction is not actually related to handedness. There seems to be a large enough number of of right handed skaters who spin clockwise, and left handed skaters who spin anti-clockwise, that the connection with the hand someone writes with has always seemed dodgy to me.

Many of the CW skaters I know took ballet as children (myself included).

Quote from: Bunny Hop on April 16, 2012, 07:32:55 AM
Anecdotal evidence suggests that spinning direction is not actually related to handedness. There seems to be a large enough number of of right handed skaters who spin clockwise, and left handed skaters who spin anti-clockwise, that the connection with the hand someone writes with has always seemed dodgy to me.

From reading up on the subject (it fascinates me why there's different dominance for different things) it seems to actually be more related to eye dominance. Although most of the research I've found on rotational direction seems to have been done for gymnasts.

Quote from: jjane45 on April 15, 2012, 09:52:59 PM
I found for me the "unnatural" forward crossover is really bad compared to the "natural" side. Which forward crossover do you prefer? (for backward it does not matter as much)

Right, editing the thread title may get you more responses ;)

I changed the thread title.  :)

Actually, I haven't learned crossovers yet. She wants my edges to be better first, but I can barely practice edges with my current skates. Putting all my weight on one foot is simply too painful.

Quote from: Bunny Hop on April 16, 2012, 07:32:55 AM
Anecdotal evidence suggests that spinning direction is not actually related to handedness. There seems to be a large enough number of of right handed skaters who spin clockwise, and left handed skaters who spin anti-clockwise, that the connection with the hand someone writes with has always seemed dodgy to me.

I wonder if it has to do with your dominant brain hemisphere? I'm right-brained, without a doubt. Don't they say the right brain controls the left side of the body and vice versa? Maybe that's a factor, then. I know it's not entirely related to which hand you write with, because I'm right-handed for most things. I write and draw with my right hand. But when it comes to sports, I do many things left-handed. When I play golf, it's left-handed. When I bat at softball, it's left-handed. I know there are other things, too, that I do backwards, but I can't think of them right now. (Maybe bowling?) In any case, perhaps the direction you spin is related to your left/right brain dominance.

I have no idea how the body decides which way to spin.  I and right handed, do everything but spin and jump right handed.  My brother is right handed, doe everything lefty but jumps and spins right handed. 

You will find learning some things awkward but when you get to twizzles you will be the only one able to do them the "wrong" way.  :). Most twizzles in dances rotate counter clockwise but when you get one rotating clockwise like in the Austrian Waltz you will excell.  :)

Quote from: fsk8r on April 16, 2012, 08:08:33 AM
From reading up on the subject (it fascinates me why there's different dominance for different things) it seems to actually be more related to eye dominance. Although most of the research I've found on rotational direction seems to have been done for gymnasts.

I skate CW and definately think that it is eye dominance for me.  My left eye is very weak compared to my right eye. 

I also help with a LTS program.  I have noticed that the kids that are in dance also tend to spin to the right.

My kid is ccw but her best friend is cw so as a challenge they practice doing it their respective "wrong way".  Dd and I were watching an ice video and the skater did alternating ccw and cw axels and I thought nothing of it (honestly didn't even notice), but dd noticed right away and was in awe.  If you decide to test with ISI, they have skills that involve doing both cw and ccw.  So not a waste of time if they end up going in that test vein! :)

Okay, so I just took an eye dominance test and apparently I'm left-eyed. Maybe that does have something to do with it, then. It looks like the percentage of left-eyed people is about 15% or so. Looks like it's pretty rare to have opposite hand-eye dominance. Usually if you're left-eyed, you're left-handed, as well, and vice versa.

Apparently I am left eye dominant too.  Very interesting...I wonder if there is some sort of correlation.

I am left-handed and a clockwise spinner.  However, I am also right-eye dominant.  Interesting topic! 

Our new family Opthalmologist and  I had a really interesting discussion about eye dominance in the Fall, for which I made a topic in the Coaches' Lounge.  The coaches' results were interesting, but not conclusive, lol.  Most of them were CCW with right-eye dominant, which disproved the theory. 

Just to be picayune, can we suggest one eye dominance test, so we're all testing the same way?  
I used this one:

Sports Vision Skills You Can Practice at Home
By Liz Segre and Marilyn Haddrill, with contributions and review by Donald S. Teig, OD
(http://www.allaboutvision.com/sportsvision/skills.htm)

The opthalmologist and her assistant both said not to do the test yourself, have someone else cover one eye but I got the same results on my own that I did in their office.

In any event:
I am primarily right-handed (some ambidextrous ability, not much)
Spin CCW
Left-eye dominant

I have twin DDs.  One is right-handed, the other a southpaw.  The right-handed DD skates CW; the left-handed DD skates CCW.  I've been trying to get them to do a "mirror program" for years and they just won't accede to my wishes, lol.  I also have skating students who are RH/CW or LH/CCW, so I think "handedness" is meaningless as a measurement of spin or jump direction.  

I've been told that most (but not all) people are dominant in the same side for eye and hand.  I'm right handed, left eye dominant, and spin CCW.  (Supposedly, having the opposite eye dominant is an advantage for baseball players, as the batting stance gives the eye opposite your dominant hand the better view of the approaching ball.)

I suspect that spin direction has more to do with foot dominance than hand or eye dominance.

If you want to figure out which foot is your preferred balancing foot, you can try this test.
  - stand relaxed with your knees slightly bent, weight even on both feet
  - have somebody stand behind you and give you a gentle shove in the middle of your back
The foot that use to step forward and catch yourself on is the foot that you prefer to balance on.

If you snowboard, skateboard, or skimboard, the foot that you prefer to have in front is the foot you prefer to balance on.

My theory is that most CCW spinners prefer to balance on the left foot, and most CW spinners prefer to balance on the right foot.

When I am asked to balance on one foot, I always choose my right foot.  It's the stronger leg/foot, which is probably why my backspin is pretty strong.  Maybe that strength is from landing jumps, though.  (I can press more weight on the fitness machines with my right leg than my left.  Too bad my knee isn't good on that side.)



OT: I love the term "goofy footed" in snowboarding.  That's when the boarder keeps the left foot forward on the board instead of the "regular footed" right one.  Makes me think we should call skaters that prefer spreadeagles with their left foot forward "goofy eaglers."  lol

Just to make it interesting, when I swim freestyle, I prefer to turn to the right to breathe, which is CW, lol.


Mod note: added poll just for fun.

Quote from: FigureSpins on April 16, 2012, 08:48:38 PM
Just to be picayune, can we suggest one eye dominance test, so we're all testing the same way?  
I used this one:

Sports Vision Skills Tit Can Practice at Home
By Liz Segre and Marilyn Haddrill, with contributions and review by Donald S. Teig, OD
(http://www.allaboutvision.com/sportsvision/skills.htm)

Interesting test. I'm right handed, strongly right eye dominant, and no surprise, skate CCW. Not much preference on turns, but really hate CW forward crossover. Much prefer to balance on left leg, and goofy all the way ;)

Isk8NYC  - could you test your twins eye dominance? Given that they should genetically be very similar but have different hand preference and spin direction, I'd be curious to know whether they follow the eye dominance theory (which is left eye dominance leads to clockwise spinning).
Also as younger skaters they've probably also had coaches who are more accepting that people don't all spin and jump the same direction. (In a similar way that statistics show the numbers of left handers increased through the last century but that was mainly due to not being forced to be right handed as people became more enlightened).

On a completely unrelated note, people also have preference when they fold their arms, sit cross-legged or even just interlacing their fingers together. One way is more comfortable than the other. None of those have anything to do with handedness. There's probably subtle differences between our left and right sides which mean they just fit together better one way.

I can't remember which is my dominant eye. I did find out once, when I did an Archery course, but they tested me wrong at first, and it was only corrected in the final lesson - at which point I finally started hitting the target! Similarly, when I did Learn to Skate, the coach decided I was a CCW spinner and jumper, so that's how I learnt.

When I came back to skating as an adult, my coach decided to try me spinning CW, as I was having so much trouble with spinning. Turned out I found it easier to spin CW (I've never actually learnt to spin, but CW is easier). I was unable, however, to re-learn jumping CW. think this was latent muscle memory from when I skated as a teen, when I could jump but not spin. So technically I spin and jump in different directions (although in reality I do neither, so it's basically irrelevant).

I believe I'm right-footed. When I do one-foot glides or edges-on-a-circle, it's easier to balance on my right foot, but much harder on my left foot. And when I do half-swizzle pumps, I have a lot more trouble using my left foot. With practice and strength training, I've gotten to where I can easily do forward half-swizzle pumps on either foot, but my backward half-swizzle pumps are still very awkward and graceless when I use my left foot.

So, I'm right-handed, right-footed, and right-brained, but left-eyed. And somehow that all adds up to being a clockwise spinner.

Interesting.  I just tried it with my 3 kids - all right handed  but 1 clockwise spinner and 2 counter-clockwise.  The CW is left eye-dominant and the 2 CCW are right eye-dominant.

Quote from: Isk8NYC on April 16, 2012, 10:21:57 PM
OT: I love the term "goofy footed" in snowboarding.  That's when the boarder keeps the left foot forward on the board instead of the "regular footed" right one.

Actually, if the left foot is forward, that makes the boarder regular.  (See http://www.abc-of-snowboarding.com/learn-snowboarding/snowboarding-stance.asp (http://www.abc-of-snowboarding.com/learn-snowboarding/snowboarding-stance.asp))  Goofy riders have the right foot in front.

I just took the eye dominance test, and I had to change my vote lol I thought being right handed, and a CCW skater I would've have definitely been right eye dominant, but I was wrong!!  I'm left all the way hahah!!  That's an interesting test :) Thank you for sharing!

Quote from: skaterina79 on April 17, 2012, 06:55:21 PM
I just took the eye dominance test, and I had to change my vote lol I thought being right handed, and a CCW skater I would've have definitely been right eye dominant, but I was wrong!!  I'm left all the way hahah!!  That's an interesting test :) Thank you for sharing!

haha pretty hard with my crap eyesight to tell & then I had to redo cause I ticked the wrong box :D

I'm cross dominant. Left eye dominant. Right hand dominant. Watching me shoot a bow and arrow creeps serious archers out.

I don't know how it affects my skating.

Oh, I have no depth perception either. I have to make all my depth calls based on size estimates.

I have trouble with depth perception, too. Certain kinds of 3D movies, I can't watch. Like IMAX 3D, there simply is no 3D there for me, it's mostly flat. I always figured it was because one of my eyes is extremely nearsighted and the other isn't. I wear glasses to correct this, but my eyes still don't work together well enough to accurately pick up on 3-D. Wonder if being left-eyed or cross-dominant has anything to do with it, as well?

Quote from: Orianna2000 on April 18, 2012, 10:07:39 PM
I have trouble with depth perception, too. Certain kinds of 3D movies, I can't watch. Like IMAX 3D, there simply is no 3D there for me, it's mostly flat. I always figured it was because one of my eyes is extremely nearsighted and the other isn't. I wear glasses to correct this, but my eyes still don't work together well enough to accurately pick up on 3-D. Wonder if being left-eyed or cross-dominant has anything to do with it, as well?

Hmmm, I'd never thought about that. I am also extremely short-sighted in one eye, but the other is not so bad. I can see the 3D in 3D movies, but I've never been that impressed by it - now I'm wondering if that's because I'm not seeing it properly, which is why I don't understand what the fuss is about (though my main problem with 3D films is having to wear two pairs of glasses).

I don't know which eye is dominant, but I'm slightly ambidextrous, and can spin equally badly in both directions. 

Quote from: AgnesNitt on April 17, 2012, 10:05:56 PMWatching me shoot a bow and arrow creeps serious archers out.

My husband is left handed and bought a left handed compound bow several years ago... only to find out he's right eye dominant and should have gotten a right handed bow!

I am left eye dominant and I've always been.. my vision is better with that eye and my own theory is that because I never wore glasses regularly until my mid-20's, I always tended to use that side because I could actually see stuff!

Lots of things for me that require "choosing" a foot/leg are skewed for me, because of the ACL repair I had at almost 16, I strongly favor my "good" leg, which is the left... it's more stable.  Prior to then, it may have been my right, I'm not sure.

Incidentally I can write with either hand.. right is easier/faster but my handwriting left handed is not that bad (better than any of my kids!)... I can even write in cursive.  I cannot however, manage to write with both hands at the same time :)

I skate CCW.. my DD shows a strong preference for CW, but she's right handed.  My youngest (4), who looks like he may be a lefty (he writes entire words backwards if he tries with his right hand!), seems to have a preference for CCW.

I didn't do an eye dominance test, but I am right handed, CW spinner- but very right side dominant.  The muscle mass on my right side of my body greatly out measures it on my left side (it is very visible in my calves, but every major muscle group the PT measured is larger on the right.)

I think this is why I struggle so much with my loop- I lack the strength.  I can do it off ice CCW, but I lack the ability to turn well enough on the ice to do it there.

I can spin for a very long time CW without getting dizzy, but only about half as long CCW.  I think as a kid I could have learned CCW, but not now.

Quote from: sarahspins on April 20, 2012, 02:24:38 PM
Incidentally I can write with either hand.. right is easier/faster but my handwriting left handed is not that bad (better than any of my kids!)... I can even write in cursive.  I cannot however, manage to write with both hands at the same time :)

Like you, I can also write with either hand (right is stronger/better, but I suspect that's got a lot to do with many decades of practice), so I just tried writing both hands at once - I can do it but it's awkward to say the least.  To avoid over-writing the right hand with the left, the hands have to be quite far apart or one hand has to be below the other.  And I wouldn't call the result exactly neat, although to my surprise it was sort of legible!  :D

I actually suspect that I should have been allowed to learn to write left-handed.  Even now, after decades of writing right-handed, having a pen in the left hand feels quite natural.

aussieskater - I thought you were about to say that the eye dominance theory doesn't hold south of the equator and you all spin clockwise like the water going down the plug hole. Australians must then relearn to spin when they travel to the northern hemisphere... I know a coach who teaches all the children this theory just to see how gullible they all are.

Interesting aside on handedness. There's a great book Left Hand, Right Hand (has a website as well) where he describes handedness as being a spectrum, with some people being strongly right handed, some strongly left, and others more in the middle. Given that you seem rather ambidextrous you're probably somewhere in the middle.

I would imagine that there's a spectrum as well with rotational direction.

Quote from: fsk8r on April 21, 2012, 12:57:42 AM
aussieskater - I thought you were about to say that the eye dominance theory doesn't hold south of the equator and you all spin clockwise like the water going down the plug hole. Australians must then relearn to spin when they travel to the northern hemisphere.

You're right fsk8r - that's absolutely correct.  We also have to work harder to stick to the earth as we're always falling off the underside of the globe.

Quote from: aussieskater on April 21, 2012, 03:18:48 AM
You're right fsk8r - that's absolutely correct.  We also have to work harder to stick to the earth as we're always falling off the underside of the globe.

LOL! I'm assuming the falling off bit makes jumps easier but the landings harder.

Quote from: fsk8r on April 21, 2012, 12:57:42 AMInteresting aside on handedness. There's a great book Left Hand, Right Hand (has a website as well) where he describes handedness as being a spectrum, with some people being strongly right handed, some strongly left, and others more in the middle. Given that you seem rather ambidextrous you're probably somewhere in the middle.

I suspect I'm more in the middle. I'm left handed for writing, but can perform a lot of other tasks with  my right hand. That's partly a left handed thing though - you pretty much have to learn to do a lot of things right handed, because a lot of objects are designed with right handers in mind. My mother taught me to knit right handed, because she couldn't do it left handed.

I once took over a job from someone who was VERY left handed. She had a left handed computer keyboard at her desk (meaning the numeric keypad, arrow keys etc were on the left instead of right). The job involvued a lot of use of the numeric keypad and despite being left handed myself I could not use that thing! I swapped it for a 'proper' keyboard at the first opportunity.


And LOL at the whole southern hemisphere discussion.

Quote from: fsk8r on April 21, 2012, 06:32:36 AM
LOL! I'm assuming the falling off bit makes jumps easier but the landings harder.

New training centers where quintuple jumps become reality!

Quote from: fsk8r on April 21, 2012, 06:32:36 AM
LOL! I'm assuming the falling off bit makes jumps easier but the landings harder.

So what does that mean for those of us further south LOL  :D