hi, I just looked at a competition schedule and noticed something. A girl took her Pre Pre FREE SKATE test in January and passed (we were there to congratulate). She just competed this weekend at no test (and won) and she is scheduled to compete at no test again. To make sure, I looked up the tests recieved for January on the USFS website and sure enough there she was under Pre Pre Free Skate. SHould I say something? She is competing against a very close friend who is truly no test, not to mention the other girls.
You could say something. Many local competitions though go by your test level at the time the papers are turned in though. It is only qualifying competitions where you ALWAYS disqualify yourself by testing up.
You would need to look at the entry paperwork before you make a fuss, for sure.
Agreed, the test level at the time the paperwork for the competition is what matters - if she passed a test after the comp paperwork was turned in, or that paperwork was due before her test date, it may not effect her level just yet.
well I know for this one the paperwork was due in march which is way after the test was taken.(how do I know? I was negligent in turning dd's papers in time and did not want to pay late fee so I bagged it ;D) And the paperwork says no free skate tests passed for no test. I have to say, if my dd was competing in her group, I would want someone to speak up if this is truly cheating.
When we send in test forms, our test chair/club president has to sign it certifying levels, which prevents this. I guess your system is different.
However, I have had experience with many competitions where the "qualifying date" is some months before the competition OR registration date; comps in February/March have a "test date" of November for example, meaning that unless the test was passed before November, it didn't matter. I would pull the original announcement, if you have it, and look at the qualifying date.
Given how vigilant parents tend to be on competitors, and it sounds like you can publicly check test levels ... I would be surprised that somebody would pull something like this?
Maybe the girl's parents have no idea what a test level is?
Quote from: Sk8tmum on April 02, 2012, 10:15:47 PM
Given how vigilant parents tend to be on competitors, and it sounds like you can publicly check test levels ... I would be surprised that somebody would pull something like this?
Who is going to check hundreds of skaters? I will look at the papers. But if it turns out shady, what would you do?
Quote from: nicklaszlo on April 02, 2012, 10:33:18 PM
Maybe the girl's parents have no idea what a test level is?
but shouldn't her coach? Coach put her on the ice and will again.
Why would anyone want to win at no test that badly?
Ours is done online and yes, our club checks every member and competitor.
To answer your question, I would let the registrar know if I was 110percent sure and I would sign my name to it - not do it anon.
why, don't get it, i would think its not satisfying to win at a lower level. However at camp, there was a teen doing doubles but competing at no test to "win more golds"(her words). Another girl lied about her age in a basic skills comp. So, it could happen. But she did not take any FS test, so it was legit right?
Quote from: falen on April 02, 2012, 11:23:25 PM
why, don't get it, i would think its not satisfying to win at a lower level. However at camp, there was a teen doing doubles but competing at no test to "win more golds"(her words). Another girl lied about her age in a basic skills comp. So, it could happen. But she did not take any FS test, so it was legit right?
It happens. Lots. For some parents and skaters and coaches it's all about the medals. It's one of those things that you need to take into account when choosing a coach... Coaches who sandbag are out there.
Quote from: hopskipjump on April 02, 2012, 11:16:25 PM
Why would anyone want to win at no test that badly?
Ours is done online and yes, our club checks every member and competitor.
To answer your question, I would let the registrar know if I was 110percent sure and I would sign my name to it - not do it anon.
I didn't think you can email anonomously.
Quote from: Sk8tmum on April 02, 2012, 11:33:14 PM
It happens. Lots. For some parents and skaters and coaches it's all about the medals. It's one of those things that you need to take into account when choosing a coach... Coaches who sandbag are out there.
I know it happens. DD's first big time comp at no test had 2 girls who passed intermediate moves test, but no frees. I saw that test...if you can pass those moves, you can skate pre preliminary at least!
Sure you can.... yahoo accounts are free.
Quote from: falen on April 02, 2012, 11:38:42 PM
I know it happens. DD's first big time comp at no test had 2 girls who passed intermediate moves test, but no frees. I saw that test...if you can pass those moves, you can skate pre preliminary at least!
Dunno about that ... my non-jumping kid has Canadian Gold Skills, but, still can't land doubles OR an axel (except when the moon aligns with the stars and I cross my fingers tightly and click my heels 3 times and mutter "rotate rotate rotate"). 88) 88) 88) I think your pre-pre has axels and stuff, right?
Anyways, don't let it drive you nuts. Used to drive me nuts too, until I figured out that it wasn't worth it. Who t'heck cares about entry level medals? Many coaches who are building competitive skaters push 'em up fast, even if they are ending up in the bottom, so that they keep getting challenged. Just smile and go ... and in the end, often, the kid who has won tons'o'medals at the baby levels ends up quitting when they do move up a bit and stop winning medals, whereas the kids who have just been chugging along and working away end up sticking with the sport.
the kids who have just been chugging along and working away end up sticking with the sport.
Very true!
how about I just write to have them look into a possible error. Because back to my original thing, dd's friend will be competing against her. and a group of other kids and they really deserve a fair shot. No point in writing to the comps that have already happened, she got the gold move on. Of course I could see how happy the girl who got silver would be to find out she got gold because the other girl was entered incorrectly. Gee its like 2002 oly!
Oh should I give the mom a heads up? I don't want to worry her needlessly if this plan will prevent any badness.
The reason why I post here is that I get a better perspective from a third party that has no stakes in the matter. Normally, I'd ask a friend, but all the friends would pretty much have a stake in the outcome. So I really appreciate the responces.
If a parent were to involve me, I'd be upset. I'd hope that everyone who had the facts was adult enough to tell the skating officials directly. Otherwise it just looks like gossip.
Quote from: hopskipjump on April 03, 2012, 12:34:00 AM
If a parent were to involve me, I'd be upset. I'd hope that everyone who had the facts was adult enough to tell the skating officials directly. Otherwise it just looks like gossip.
I would be upset too, another thing to worry about which I do not want to do to her (why am I so observant????!!! if I did not notice, I would not be up so early in the morning), and better for someone with no personal interest to bring it to the officials, yes?
Am I too meddly? I want to be the change I want to see today. :-\
Perhaps it's an honest mistake. I know one mom was entering her kid for competition at the same time the kid was testing. She managed to enter her in the lower category by mistake, she was used to ticking that box. They were honest and contacted the organiser and the referee was left to make the decision. Because they were slow in telling the organiser it was after the draw and the referee said that her hands were tied so the kid at to withdraw. Had it been before the draw the referee was quite prepared to move the kid to the correct category.
I would contact the competition organiser if you're certain of the facts and leave it to them to sort out. Or else speak to the mom involved so that she can contact the organiser.
I have a slightly different take on this situation.
We all know that there is a huge variation of skill and abilities at any given test level. Does a skater who has passed Pre-preliminary really have a significant advantage over the skaters who are no test? That is, technically it appears that the "cheater" in question is skating at the wrong level, and (as pointed out above) this could be a result of an administrative error, parental/coach error, or another kind of scenario as much as it could be a case of sandbagging. Yet "no test" skaters seem to have pretty advanced skills these days--the category simply means "no test," not necessarily not advanced (from what I can tell it's a "level" for skaters who don't have axels). From my own observations, I'm not convinced that a Pre-pre skater competing against a no test skater is an outrageous miss match.
You're talking about one or two events at one competition, right? This is something that may not mean much in the long run.
One the other hand, YOU have much more to lose by making a stink over this issue. Figure skating is a clubby, clique-y, gossipy world. Even if you you are 100% correct about the sandbagging, do you really want to develop a reputation as a skating mom who cried foul about a no test event? There is too much at stake in the long run to risk. Given how much work you'd need to do to "expose" the cheater, you will be perceived as the worst kind of interventionist skating mom. I know you think you're upholding a principle, but given the low stakes, this is not a fight worth winning. In other words, pick your battles carefully in the skating world.
I'm sorry this has upset you so much. Don't worry, it'll get better.
Counting this next one with dd's friend, that would be 3 separate comps at no test after passing the FS test. (yes I found another) What about telling the girl's coach and let her handle it? I am torn about telling the mom. I don't want to put her in the position of "sour grapes".
I wouldn't approach the coach- they have to be aware, as they signed the test papers.
I'd just go with the competition registration chair and say "I saw X on the schedule for no test. She passed pre-pre, is that the correct event?"
Or, not say anything at all.
That said- around here there is a BIG difference between pre-pre and no test, but our kids test sooner. No test kids are just out of basic skills. In other areas, no test kids have lutzes. It depends on what the level of competition is how much of a fuss you want to make.
First of all, don't assume anything and don't talk about cheating, sandbagging, etc. That just makes you look like a busy-body, especially since you don't have a dog in this fight, lol. I know you feel aggrieved, but stalking the kid online isn't doing anything positive for the situation.
As someone pointed out, you want to take the high road at all times and protect yourself and your daughter. You don't want to get a reputation as overwrought or meddling.
I've seen several cases where competitors were on the schedule for an incorrect event. In one case, it was, without a doubt, an honest mistake on the entry form (Pre-Prel instead of Prel) that wasn't caught until the morning of the event. The ref moved her to the correct category before the warmup. The girl and her family are the nicest people, the coach is usually on the ball, it was just a mistake. I didn't say anything when I saw the initial schedule and I wish I had because then the competition would have gone smoother if the error had been corrected earlier. They had to change all the competition lists, posting sheets, make sure the CD was in the right envelope, etc. etc. I was glad the competition volunteers were willing to correct the error, because the skater had worked really hard on the program.
Parents get confused with the titles and the forms and the checklists; mistakes happen. While forms are supposed to be verified and signed by a club officer, online entry has changed that task substantially. Every competitor is still supposed to be verified, but now the competition chair sends lists to each coach and home club. The coaches and clubs are supposed to verify that their skater(s) are registered for the correct event(s). Sounds like that's fallen (no pun intended) through the cracks.
I hear what the OP's saying though: three competitions in the wrong category, with the test passed well before deadlines -- that's wrong. Someone's dropped the ball.
Out of courtesy, assume it's an honest mistake. Don't tell anyone other than the competition chairperson and/or the skater's club test chair. A short note or phone message saying "I think there's a mistake on the schedule - () is registered for No Test freeskate, yet she passed Pre-Prel back in January. I thought you'd like to know as early as possible in case she has to be in a different warmup group."
Don't bring up the research you've done through test results and competitions, and don't write an essay. Two lines is all you need to give them the information and walk away. If anyone thanks you, just say "No problem - mistakes happen." or "I figured it was a typo - glad I could help."
Let them do what they will with that information, you will have done your part. If the skater continues to register for the wrong event, just mind your own business. If others start gossiping about it, just change the subject. Don't chime in with "I told them back in April that she was cheating."
As you've been told before, don't bad-mouth the skater, parents or coach. It just bounces back in the long run, as drskater explained.
thank you figure. That was one of the senarios I was bouncing in my head. I really feel in a bad situation. If dd's friend and mom found out I knew the girl was in the wrong category, lets face it, they would probably be very angry with me for not saying something. And if I said something to them, then they have the added worry. Really I can't win in this situation, because someone will be upset with me, either the pre-pre no test camp or dd's friend and family.
From my own observations, I'm not convinced that a Pre-pre skater competing against a no test skater is an outrageous miss match.
Here there is a huge difference.
I like the casual "hey, I think there was a typo" comment to an official. I would assume it was an honest mistake as well.
Forget all the stalking you've done and the outrage you've raised in yourself - it was useless. This is not about you unless you start working yourself up to make a scene; you're blowing this out of proportion. No one is asking you to be the vigilante of skating competitions. You saw a mistake, now point it out to the appropriate chairpeople and let the error be corrected by them.
You don't have a skater in this competition, so you're a neutral party doing your part to help the competition run smoothly. It's logical that you would catch the error since your DD has a friend in that event. It's not favoritism or anything like that and no one's going to criticize or praise you for pointing out an obvious error on the schedule.
Just send/leave the short message with the competition chair and/or the club test chair. The chairpeople need to know as soon as possible, so they can correct the mistake without it being the big blow-up you seem to be seeking with your dithering. The fewer people involved, the better, since obviously no one verified the kid's skating level.
The chairpeople aren't going to go blabbing that you caught an error that they, the coaches and the parents missed. They won't announce that so-and-so pointed out their mistake. They're not going to send out a press release or even talk about the situation with any of the other competitors; they'll check the facts and either scratch the skater or change the skater's event. They want to fix the schedule and get the competition underway as smoothly as possible. But, they need time to do that, so just send the short note and get it started. The longer you wring your hands and hope that someone notices your distress, the more time is wasted on ineffective emotions.
Quote from: falen on April 03, 2012, 11:45:54 AM
thank you figure. That was one of the senarios I was bouncing in my head. I really feel in a bad situation. If dd's friend and mom found out I knew the girl was in the wrong category, lets face it, they would probably be very angry with me for not saying something. And if I said something to them, then they have the added worry. Really I can't win in this situation, because someone will be upset with me, either the pre-pre no test camp or dd's friend and family.
Huge difference here between No Test and Pre-Prel.
Quote from: Sk8tmum on April 02, 2012, 11:52:16 PMI think your pre-pre has axels and stuff, right?
Not on the test, no... but kids usually have an axel (and often doubles) by the time they test and compete at that level.. you basically need an axel to be competitive, which is why no test exists - it's for the kids who don't have it yet, not necessarily the kids who "can't" pass the test. Axels aren't "required" on any test until Juvenile, which is the 4th freeskate test.
I could see someone having tested up pretty high in moves but not testing any freeskate levels if they didn't have an axel yet... moves may be a good indicator of overall skating skills, but they really can't tell you much about jumping or spinning ability. Sure someone who has passed intermediate should be able to pass pre-pre (and likely higher) tests without a problem, but if they lack the jumps to be competitive there would be no reason to do so, no matter what their moves level was.
Pre-pre is a really basic test - it doesn't even require a program, you simply skate the elements (waltz jump, salchow, 1/2 flip and 1/2 lutz, plus a one foot spin) for the judge and the test is scored pass/fail. It's extremely unusual for someone to not pass the pre-pre moves or freeskate tests. There is a HUGE disconnect though, between what is required for the test and what a skater needs to be able to do to be competitive in competition.
I'm feeling rather under the weather right now, so I can't seem to get the USFSA rulebook to open up online. I thought there was a clause about being allowed to compete in nonquals by one level above or below, according to the club running the competition?
Also, if the skater is in the wrong level (but maybe not a a nonqual event) isn't there some kind of a sanction against them?
Why would the OP want to file a sanction against someone else's skater that isn't even competing against her DD? She saw something she thinks is an error. It's a No Test event. Just tell the chairs about the schedule error and let them handle it appropriately. Then, MYOB.
The competition chairperson will deal with it and decide if they need to notify anyone else, such as US Figure Skating or the past competition chairpeople. Let them do their job as discreetly as possible. I don't see any benefit from publicly trying to humiliate the skater, parents or coaches.
Didn't say the OP wanted to get sanctions in place - did I? I think I just stated that if one knowingly competes in the wrong division/level, then it is a sanctionable offense. I am under the weather, but I was just putting the rules (as I remember them) out there. If we don't play by the rules, what's the point?
In my little corner of the skating world, it would be a great offense to test a FS level, then knowingly compete at a lower level if it was not allowed at the competition. Of course, everyone would know it, and people would catch it before the skater even got to the rink for the competition. Since USFSA publishes tests passed (and most clubs put the results online and on the club bulletin board) it's not a secret. I'm surprised that the skater has done this so many times, and no one has caught it. That's why I'm leaning towards my first bit of info - that nonquals have more flexible rules, and some let you compete up or down a level. Why would a coach risk losing credentials for a pre-pre skater?
Quote from: Schmeck on April 03, 2012, 01:43:51 PM
Also, if the skater is in the wrong level (but maybe not a a nonqual event) isn't there some kind of a sanction against them?
Quote
Didn't say the OP wanted to get sanctions in place - did I? I think I just stated that if one knowingly competes in the wrong division/level, then it is a sanctionable offense.
It's a no-test event in a non-qualifying competition. To enact a sanction, someone has to file a formal, written grievance with the USFSA. The OP asked what to do. You bought up sanctions-of course I assumed you wanted her to file a formal grievance and asked if you really thought that was necessary at this level? LOL
I think my solution of contacting the chairperson to report the error is much more appropriate. If they feel additional actions are needed, the onus will be on them to file the grievance, but I doubt they would for such a low-level event. It would be like using a bazooka to kill a mosquito. If they felt it was intentional, they could deliver justice just by scratching her from the event and not refunding the entry fee.
I don't see anything in the rulebook that lets a skater "skate down" a level. Some competitions will allow singles skaters to "skate up" one level, yes, but skating down, nah, not that I've ever seen.
Maybe you're thinking of Synchro, where the levels are pretty loosey-goosey, but that wouldn't apply to singles. Maybe someone else can find something to support your skate down theory, but I've never heard of that before for a freeskate event.
I'd think that if anyone wanted to, they could complain and file, though. Multiple offenses, doesn't seem like the coach or skater care that they are breaking rules?
Would I file? No, I'd call my friend the judge and get her advice.
Would I advise others to file? If the person was on the board of the club, any club, that this skater competed at, yes. Just a parent or skater on the sidelines? Only if this skater was in a competition I was involved in. If you knowingly let it continue, aren't you part of the problem?
We've had smaller competitions (singles, not synchro) where the levels were combined, and called by the lower one. Mostly the adult levels though.
Synchro actually has stricter rules - no team skating up or down, many age limitations and definite MITF tests that must be passed to be eligible. You can test higher than your level (which does seem loosey-goosey, but is also allowed in singles MITF) but you must be of a certain age and have passed a specific level. Open levels are well, a bit more open, but have averages that have to be followed.
Another thing to do would be to simply ask the skater (or maybe the parents) directly, since you seem to know them:
"Did you pass your pre-pre freestyle test? If so, then why did you compete at such-and-such a competition at "no test" level?
Maybe they didn't really pass the test in the first place.
Otherwise I would leave it alone because if you can't let this stuff bother you because you will see perceived "unfair"ness at all the levels of skating.
Been there. Done that.
i just email the chairman to look into the error. That is all. no sanctions! they are just kids. if the coach gets in trouble, well she should know better.
Kids should learn to follow rules too, right? Not saying the skater should be banned for life from USFSA competitions, but having to return medals won in the past when skating at the wrong level, yes.
icedancer2, I'm thinking you may be correct - the skater didn't actually pass the pre-pre test.
Quote from: falen on April 02, 2012, 09:28:23 PM
hi, I just looked at a competition schedule and noticed something. A girl took her Pre Pre FREE SKATE test in January and passed (we were there to congratulate). She just competed this weekend at no test (and won) and she is scheduled to compete at no test again. To make sure, I looked up the tests recieved for January on the USFS website and sure enough there she was under Pre Pre Free Skate. SHould I say something? She is competing against a very close friend who is truly no test, not to mention the other girls.
It sounds like she should not be skating non-test. However, it would depend on when the form was due. If she had passed the test after submitting the form, she is fine to skate in that level. If the deadline was indeed March, like you say, then no, she should not be in no-test. Would I say something? I dunno. It could have been an oversight. Around here, coaches and a club officer have to sign competition forms. What does your club do? I would tread carefully. Good luck!
Quote from: falen on April 02, 2012, 11:38:42 PM
I know it happens. DD's first big time comp at no test had 2 girls who passed intermediate moves test, but no frees. I saw that test...if you can pass those moves, you can skate pre preliminary at least!
Moves have nothing to do with freeskate levels. It is possible that those kids didn't have the jumps needed to move up(ie: axels). Some coaches really push moves, others don't. My daughter will be working on Juvenile moves in preliminary with the goal to take and pass them in December/January. Then she will be on to intermediate moves. I knew a girl skating pre-pre who passed her intermediate moves but was definitely a pre-pre skater as fas as jumps and spins went. On the other hand, you have my dd's friend who skates at the Juv level but is only on her Juv moves. It really depends on the individual. My daughter's coach wants to try and get her moves to be 2 levels above her skating level. Another coach at our rink usually has their skaters moves 2-3 levels above their skating level. It really varies from skater to skater.
Quote from: falen on April 03, 2012, 12:26:28 AM
how about I just write to have them look into a possible error. Because back to my original thing, dd's friend will be competing against her. and a group of other kids and they really deserve a fair shot. No point in writing to the comps that have already happened, she got the gold move on. Of course I could see how happy the girl who got silver would be to find out she got gold because the other girl was entered incorrectly. Gee its like 2002 oly!
Oh should I give the mom a heads up? I don't want to worry her needlessly if this plan will prevent any badness.
The reason why I post here is that I get a better perspective from a third party that has no stakes in the matter. Normally, I'd ask a friend, but all the friends would pretty much have a stake in the outcome. So I really appreciate the responces.
edited to add, sounds like the OP has emailed the competition chair. Good luck :) Oh and I do not think the child should be told to give back the medals earned at previous competitions. I would imagine the skater has no idea herself, that it is not ok to skate non-test. Oh and around here, there isn't a huge difference between non-test and pre-pre. The pre-pre skaters might be a little more polished then the NT skaters, but they all skate with similar elements minus the axel in NT.
I would not involve your friend. In fact, I would keep quiet about it. No sense in worrying the kid or the parent about it. Honestly, if the coach is putting her student in the wrong level and the kid wins, she isn't doing the kid any favors. My daughter skates preliminary. She is not a strong preliminary skater. We moved her up because she CAN land a 2 sal and sometimes lands other doubles. This will challenge her more then pre-pre and force her to practice her doubles. She has good spins and is working on foot work. We don't do this for the medals, we do it for the reward of hard work. If she wins, GREAT but honestly, it isn't about winning. That's a fun little bonus. Is it fair for a kid to skate down? No, it isn't. But I think instead of focusing on if she is in the wrong level, the better focus would be to focus on how your friend does and hoot and hollar for her. You never know what will happen.
A skater passing a freestyle test, getting congratulated on it, (and a certificate, maybe a pin or badge or medal) and not knowing she just moved up a level? How old is this skater we're talking about?
You get a certificate about half a page in size and an email/survey. My daughter doesn't see the email - but I'll ask her the questions and respond for her, and I don't know if she noticed the certificates - they are on a wall with her skating stuff - for her the judge sheet is very interesting, a certificate is more scrapbookish. If her coach said "you are skating this event/level" she wouldn't question it...her coach is in charge. She is just a kid.
My kids get a small party. So they notice!
LOL - I must be "the mean mom". ;) For her the big party event is getting to eat from the judge's table! ;D
Quote from: hopskipjump on April 13, 2012, 03:43:54 PM
LOL - I must be "the mean mom". ;) For her the big party event is getting to eat from the judge's table! ;D
Small = latte or hot chocolate and a trip for ice cream with the family! Seriously though, every test passed is extensively debriefed with the coach, including the implications for future comps. There is no way that they would have ever not known their skating levels, even when they were tinies. They have always been expected to be fully informed and able to discuss such things, as part of the skaters expectations of their coaches.
Sure she knows her levels, but not comp rules. She wouldn't know you can skate a level up for example so why would a kid know you can't skate down a level?
I am betting that there was some technicality with her test/filing - maybe her club reported the test to USFS but the skater didn't pay for the test yet so when the club did the approval they had left her at the lower level until fees were up to date or maybe someone just skipped an entry(for example) or maybe USFS checked the wrong column. I guess I am more willing to believe it was either totally okay (maybe she registered far in advance) or there was some document issue, or even a typo before I would believe that a coach and family intentionally broke the rules and skated down a level because the comp lists and test lists are so public.
goodness, it seems pretty common here. A mom told me that a canadian kid (in her teens) is competing in US at no test and took canadian preliminary freeskate test. (I have a post asking the difference because I am thinking that maybe the tests are not equivalent. )
Quote from: falen on April 13, 2012, 05:53:28 PM
goodness, it seems pretty common here. A mom told me that a canadian kid (in her teens) is competing in US at no test and took canadian preliminary freeskate test. (I have a post asking the difference because I am thinking that maybe the tests are not equivalent. )
No our preliminary test is not like yours, and we don't have moves in the field requirements for testing.
the first girl in question was moved to pre pre. So now everyone is on edge and being vigilant (on the competitiors that is)
falen, thanks for the update!
Quote from: falen on April 13, 2012, 08:02:55 PM
the first girl in question was moved to pre pre. So now everyone is on edge and being vigilant (on the competitiors that is)
That's good! Sounds like that is where she needs to be. :)