skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Bill_S on August 27, 2019, 05:52:00 PM
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This is split off from an earlier thread concerning a purchase of blades and boots. I thought that the info here might deserve it's own thread.
I purchased two different blades in 10-1/4" length. I have been making some observations about the differences between them. In the other thread, I compared weight where I found the Aces in the 10-1/4" size to weigh 360 grams and the MK Professionals to weigh 355 grams. That's very close.
The edges on both blades were sharpened at the factory to a reasonable degree. On a couple of the blades, one edge appeared just a bit sharper than the other by feel. Most purchasers have them re-sharpened anyway, but these were still skateable with the factory edge.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_ace_vs_pro-2-800px.jpg)
The toe picks were visibly different.
Aces...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_ace-picks-800px.jpg)
MK Pros...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_mk-picks1-800px.jpg)
Note the wicked looking top pick and bottom (drag) pick compared to the Aces. The top pick is the one that I call the "shin pick" for when you are skating with a partner. You'd have to be especially careful with the MK Pros!
I performed the heel lift test where you rotate the front of the blade down until the drag pick touches, and measure how high the heel lifts. Both skates measured 1.3" heel lift. When skates wear, the lift is reduced. This is a baseline measurement for the future.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_ace_vs_pro-16-800px.jpg)
As expected, the mounting plate hole patterns differed. Darn! Wouldn't it be nice if manufacturers created a standard to make switching blades easier?
The Aces had the adjustment slots toward the rear...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/plate_front_aces.jpg)
MK Pros had the adjustment slots toward the front...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/plate_front_mk_27-800px.jpg)
Not apparent in these photos is that the mounting surface of the MK Pros is cupped. The front mounting plate of the Aces is flat both front to back, and side to side. The boots are rounded a bit on the bottoms, but not to the extent that the MK is cupped. Both will bend the sole of the boot to their respective shape when mounted, but personally, I'd rather have a flat plate like the Ace for reasons that I won't get into here.
The last experiment for today's look was to trace each blade rocker onto sheets of paper, then scan them into Photoshop. In software, I was able to align them to highlight profile differences. I found a couple of surprises there.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_ace_vs_pro-17-800px.jpg)
Both blade tracings aligned and overlaid, with the Ace tracing tinted red...(clicking sometimes enlarges the picture)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_profile_tracing_pro_vs_ace.jpg)
Here's an enlargement of the area close to the spin rocker..
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_profile_tracing_pro_vs_ace_crop.jpg)
There is more of a hump on the Aces near the spin rocker. The MK Pros are supposed to have a smaller spin rocker radius, but it depends on where you define the spin rocker. Very curious!
I also noted that the Aces are a bit shorter.
I'll continue characterizing these blades in the future, but some of you may be interested in the differences discovered to date.
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I almost forgot a thing or two.
I measured the stanchion height from the blade to the mounting surface (where plate meets boot). I took the measurement at two places along each blade. I selected the areas at each of the upright stanchions on the blade itself.
Blade Front Rear
MK Pro 1.856 1.894
Aces 1.876 1.881
I also measure the blade thickness at the chrome relief at several points along the blade.
The Ace was 0.161" near the tail, 0.163" mid-blade, and 0.165" approaching the pick. A slight taper! I didn't measure the other Ace blade.
The MK Pro was 0.161" near the tail, 0.159" mid-blade, and 0.161" approaching the pick.
Now we have some idea of manufacturing tolerances for these blades. It's not perfect, but I'm sure that it's perfectly serviceable.
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I can't believe the two tracings are SO similar around the spin rocker. Clearly, a little goes a long way in blades.
Bill, what blades were you skating on previously?
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Very interesting!
My US tech always whinges and moans about the quality control at MK/Wilson. Did you measure just one or both blades in the pairs? (I suspect just one....seems like this might be a fair bit of work to get these measurements!)
Nice to have a base, and first set of measurements. Thanks for this work!
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I can't believe the two tracings are SO similar around the spin rocker. Clearly, a little goes a long way in blades.
Bill, what blades were you skating on previously?
I am currently skating on Coronation Aces, but a size 10-1/2. I have tracings of it, and if I have time, I might try to compare that to the new ones here. It might be fun to see how size differences are accommodated, but the difference is only 1/4".
Loops - I traced only one blade per model for expediency. Time permitting, I might trace the other two to compare.
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This is split off from an earlier thread concerning a purchase of blades and boots. I thought that the info here might deserve it's own thread.
Interesting results here.
(a) It's bizarre that the mounting plates are different. MK and Wilson merged under the parent of HD Sports back in 1997. By now, for economy of manufacturing scale, you would think they would use as many common piece parts and processes as possible. E.g., previously, MK blades came in 1/3" increments, but at some point they shifted to 1/4" increments, in line with Wilson.
(b) What about the slot configuration on the MK heel plate? Is it the same as the Wilson, with the slots diagonally opposed on different rows? That configuration never made sense to me (Eclipse and Paramount have the slots on the heel plate on the same row, as on the toe plate).
(c) Your tracings of the blade profiles are curious indeed. Paramount concluded that the Ace has a compound spin rocker, 12" radius right behind the drag pick, and 27" radius further back; while the Pro has a single spin rocker, 12" radius. That was done with a mechanical gauge (3-point fit). They didn't mention their sample size. Looking forward to your detailed curve fittings.
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There are a lot of similarities in the packaging of the two blades, and that looks like something done for efficiency.
The heel plates are different. Here are two photos showing the two...
Ace...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/plate_heel_ace.jpg)
MK Pro...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/plate_heel_mk_pro.jpg)
I'm also curious about what the profile numbers will show.
I'm even more curious about how they will feel on ice.
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I measured the stanchion height from the blade to the mounting surface (where plate meets boot). I took the measurement at two places along each blade. I selected the areas at each of the upright stanchions on the blade itself.
Thank you! I had asked two JW/MK rep about the differences between these two blades and they both said the MK Pro had a lower stanchion height, but neither said the HEEL stanchion was higher than the CorAce. It explains so much about kids with balance issues and changing to higher-heeled boots.
Bravo for your analysis - you should submit it as a trade journal article, perhaps for the PSA or the ISI Rink magazine?
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I took measurements of the rockers of both of these blades today. I used a method as before, seen in this thread... http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6925.msg82766 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6925.msg82766). One minor change this time is to start measurements at the toe pick root instead of the tail, but that will not impact rocker radius calculations. It's just a coordinate starting point change, and it's a little more elegant that way.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/skate_rocker_measurement-8-800px.jpg)
I'm still digesting numbers, but the main rockers of both the MK Pro and the Coronation Ace are nearly the same. The rockers, calculated from three points (5", 6.5", 8") measured back from the toe pick "root", are a little over 6' 8".
Advertised rocker is 7' for both, so I'd say that's pretty good.
More to come.
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I plotted the rocker profile numbers and expanded the vertical axis to greatly exaggerate the differences between the two blades. The pick end of the blades is on the left, tails on the right. Both curves have been normalized to have the lowest measured part touch zero on the Y-axis.
(Click plot to enlarge on some displays)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/graph_rocker_ace_vs_mk_pro.gif)
tstop4me wrote earlier: (c) Your tracings of the blade profiles are curious indeed. Paramount concluded that the Ace has a compound spin rocker, 12" radius right behind the drag pick, and 27" radius further back; while the Pro has a single spin rocker, 12" radius. That was done with a mechanical gauge (3-point fit). They didn't mention their sample size. Looking forward to your detailed curve fittings.
It certainly appears in the graph that the Ace (in red) has a compound curve (3 radii?). It has a bulge at ~1.5" to 3" from the root of the drag pick. The MK Pro curve (green) appears to be a simpler two-curve shape.
BTW, the Ace rocker radius in the 2"-3" area is calculated to be 14.8". The tightest I found so far on the MK Pro is 18.75" in the 2"-3" area. This goes counter to some of the charts that I've seen at retail web sites which claim that the MK Pro has a smaller spin rocker (12") than the Ace. From the graph, I don't think I could find a 12" radius curve anywhere on the MK Pro.
I wonder where the retail sites get their data for spin rockers?
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I wonder where the retail sites get their data for spin rockers?
This is my guess. Wilson and MK are tight-lipped about their specs. And, according to Sidney Broadbent, they really didn't have specs, just some master templates. The only detailed measurements I've found, other than yours, are the ones from Paramount. My guess is that the retail sites simply copied the values from Paramount without attribution. And the retail sites typically only list the Coronation Ace as having a 27" spin rocker radius (which is fairly flat), without going into the finer distinction of a compound radius. Then, when a blade from another manufacturer is marketed as "comparable to" Coronation Ace or MK Pro, the retail sites simply regurgitate the values for Coronation Ace or Pro, without confirmation.
As I noted in my review on the Eclipse Aurora ("comparable to the Coronation Ace"), the spin rocker on the Aurora appears to be flatter than on the Coronation Ace (by direct feel on ice and by heel lift measurement; I'm not equipped to do your detailed profiles). Other skaters have reported the same feel (flatter spin rocker on Aurora than Coronation Ace). I contacted Eclipse; they told me the spin rocker radius is 23" (no mention of a compound radius).
Paramount makes special note of their CNC profiles, including sharpening. It would be interesting to see whether their versions of MK and Wilson blades have the specified spin rockers (specified by Paramount, that is).
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Comparing 2019 vs. 2007 Aces
Well, well, well.
I dug out the tracing from my then-new 2007 Coronation Ace blades and compared it to the newly purchased Aces. They were both new, out-of-the-box blades when traced, with only the factory sharpening.
In addition to the expected difference of being 1/4" shorter, another difference is the extra material near the spin rocker on the new 2019 Ace! That can't be explained by a difference in length. Up-thread, that was also the chief difference between the MK Pro and the Ace. Here it is again when comparing two Aces 12-years apart.
If the new Ace has a bit of extra material near the rocker, I wonder how this will translate to feel on the ice? Will spins be better, or worse? Does it matter once I get used to it?
Either there was a running design change, or it points to a QC issue. The 2019 Ace is shown in red.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/old_vs_new_aces_tracings.jpg)
Detail of the two Coronation Ace blades (2007 vs. 2019)...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/old_vs_new_aces_tracings_detail.jpg)
This is getting more interesting all the time.
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Great thread!
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Thanks, Nick!
Comparing Left and Right 2019 Coronation Aces
Because of the differences between the 2007 and 2019 Aces, I thought that I'd better compare the left and right blades of the new pair before mounting.
I'm happy to report that these two blades are a matched pair. I can't detect any difference in the rocker profile in a tracing. The stanchions show very minor differences, but that will have no effect were the metal meets the ice.
[Click to make picture bigger on some devices]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_tracings_l_vs_r_2019_aces-800px.jpg)
That's a relief to know.
It's still a mystery why the old Ace blades are different from my new 2019 pair.
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An Aside
Going out on a limb here, but it might be a valid exercise.
I have been interested in SkateScience dance blades as an alternative to the others. They are sold online, have a 1-3 week wait, and are fairly expensive ($444.24). However I have heard glowing testimonials about how they perform.
Skate Science has a photo of the blade in profile on their site. Go to http://www.skatescience.net/products.html (http://www.skatescience.net/products.html) and click on Olympus Dance. I overlaid the MK Pro over the photo to see if there are obvious differences in the rocker profile.
Granted, doing it this way is fraught with unknown problems, but I thought that it would be better than "armchair speculation". Maybe I could tease out some differences.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/skate_science_dance_photo_vs_mkpro.jpg)
It looks like the main rocker on the dance blade could be flatter than the MK Pro, so I'd assume that it would be an 8' rocker. That's in character for a dance blade after all. Being a larger rocker radius, the blade would be faster than the MK Pro, especially compounded with the traditionally thinner dance blade. Having less friction, it would feel more "slippery".
I noticed that the spin rocker is flat compared to the MK Pro, with the picks lower to the ice. The manufacturer claims that this blade has a large twizzle sweet-spot, and the flatter spin rocker could be their method for doing this.
However, that's a lot of speculation on my part without the actual blades to trace and measure. Still, I presume that the major differences might be identified in the comparison.
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I wonder if the manufacturers might loan you blades for these analyses? Thanks for sharing.
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I wonder if the manufacturers might loan you blades for these analyses? Thanks for sharing.
I have been thinking the same thing. If not the tight-lipped manufactures, friendly neighborhood pro shops? Or would one of the skating or Prof society magazines sponsor a more in depth study?
I personally want to know more!!!
Bill- you're awesome!!
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Thanks for the kind comments.
I wonder if the manufacturers might loan you blades for these analyses? Thanks for sharing.
I would expect a cold shoulder from the blade makers. Manufacturers would be reluctant to spill their "secret sauce". An analysis might also show that there's little or no difference between two of their blades that might be positioned in different price brackets.
What I'd like to do (dreaming here) is to make some sort of quick-change interface plate between blade and boot. It should allow an experimenter to switch between blades within minutes to try out different makes and models.
Even that has some issues. It often takes a while for someone to get used to just a new sharpening, so imagine switching between different blades in a short time. There are some basic geometry issues too that would not provide an exact comparison to directly mounted blades.
But it would be fun!
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I would expect a cold shoulder from the blade makers. Manufacturers would be reluctant to spill their "secret sauce". An analysis might also show that there's little or no difference between two of their blades that might be positioned in different price brackets.
I suspect that would be the case too. There's also the issue of determining the manufacturing variation for each blade. You would need to establish that before concluding definitively whether the differences between different models of blades are significant or not. You would likely need a collaboration with a major distributor who would be willing to lend a large selection of blades for unbiased measurements; manufacturers would likely cherry-pick samples.
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What I'd like to do (dreaming here) is to make some sort of quick-change interface plate between blade and boot. It should allow an experimenter to switch between blades within minutes to try out different makes and models.
It's a pity that previous attempts at blade-holder plus interchangeable runner systems for figure skates didn't succeed (whereas, different interchangeable systems for hockey skates have become common).
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Comparing Left and Right 2019 MK Pro Blades
This morning, I compared the left vs. right MK Pro blades via a tracing onto paper. They weren't as closely matched as the Coronation Aces, with the right blade having a little more material on the tail end. The extra material is apparent starting from the rear stanchion.
[Try clicking the picture to enlarge it]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/mk_pro_blade_comparison_l_vs_r_take-2.jpg)
Here are details of two tracings, starting with a good rocker match at the front of the blade...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/mk_pro_blade_comparison_l_vs_r_take-2_toe.jpg)
But here is the rear...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/mk_pro_blade_comparison_l_vs_r_take-2_tail.jpg)
Because the difference is at the tail where we don't skate much, it shouldn't matter significantly.
BTW, when I first saw this, I thought that my original tracing technique might have been a little sloppy. I re-traced both blades, but the anomaly remained. I feel confident that it's a blade issue, not one of inspection.
Even though I don't think that it will matter much in actual skating, this does show that QC isn't up to standards required in other manufacturing disciplines. Someone (tstop4me?) speculated that MK and Wilson used templates for shaping blades. Templates can be an excellent way to produce closely matched parts, comparable to CNC computerized manufacturing. They do require maintenance though. Even if that is done well, the sharpening done afterward could affect the rocker.
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I have sometimes scanned my blades at the edge of a printer/scanner instead of tracing them, for better accuracy. But I have to be careful not to scratch the glass.
I do find it very interesting that the left and right skates in the pair were an almost perfect match, despite the inconsistency often claimed of MK/Wilson factory sharpenings. Could they somehow sharpened together at the factory?
Which shape do you like better for skating - Ace (you mean Coronation Ace, right?) or MK Pro? Why?
I'm a bit surprised at how gradually the rocker radius changes. I feel that a more abrupt change between the spin rocker and main rocker makes it easier to feel where the change is, which gives me a felt reference point for where I am on the blade. But maybe better skaters don't need or want that.
How much of your blade measurement techniques is just for fun, to see if you can do it, and how much do you actually use them to reshape your blade to improve your skating? Do you make your engineering students cook up new measurement systems too? Maybe a good engineering project for your (advanced) students would be to design and build skate measurement tools or even skate sharpeners? :)
BTW, Skate Science's web site suggested (I haven't looked at it recently) that the shapes were designed to match muscular power curves of elite athletes - e.g., that they take into account how much strength they have, at what points in the roll along the blade, and that they created rocker profiles to match, in order to vault higher into the air on jumps, if I understood correctly, though they weren't that specific. (They didn't explain, when I looked, what their ice dance blades were supposed to optimize.) I haven't seen you skate, but is it is conceivable your strength and power curves don't match the specific elite skaters they designed their blades for? :)
When I called them, they tried to convince me that their blades, would nonetheless be optimal for not-so-athletic me, despite the advertised match to the strength and power curves of elite athletes. That left me wondering if there might be more hype than substance to their claims, especially in my case. But maybe that is unfair.
The basic idea - that the blade shape should match the athlete's strength and power curves, for optimal results - makes a certain sense, if the athlete is willing to put sufficient time into learning to use the new blades. I'm just not sure that the curves are the same for everyone.
With your engineering skills, perhaps you could figure out a way to measure your strength and power curves, and derive the optimal blade shape for you, for the kinds of skating you do, and reshape your new blades to match? That could be a really cool product you could offer, or make your students design - perhaps you (or they) could also design C&C control software to cut blades to match individual customers' strength curves... :angel:
(It's a shame no one has figured out an easy way to rapidly reshape a blade, a la the liquid metal Terminator, so we could rapidly experiment with different blade shapes... Maybe custom sharpening is the closest we can come for now.)
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Which shape do you like better for skating - Ace (you mean Coronation Ace, right?) or MK Pro? Why?
That's one of the things that want to discover. I've skated in Coronation Aces for almost 20 years. I thought that it might be time to experiment. We all want a magical blade that transforms our skating into something wonderful, but, without evidence, the pragmatist in me thinks that you should pick one, and get used to it.
BTW, I am retired now from teaching.
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Blade Straightness
One more test, and it's something that anyone can do with their own blades, mounted or not. I checked both sets of skates for straightness using a straightedge. Placed along the side of the blade, it's fairly easy to see if there are any gaps along the length of the blade. I tested both sides because sometimes gaps located at the ends are hard to spot. The opposite side will then show any deviation from straightness more readily, which will be apparent as a gap in the middle of the blade.
Both Coronation Aces were dead-on straight. One MK Professional was fine, but the other blade (right one) had a slight sideways curvature. I'd estimate that it deviates about 0.020-0.025" from straight in the middle. That's about the thickness of a matchbook cover.
Look for the small daylight gap between the straightedge and the blade in the photo below.
[Click to make bigger]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/straightness_mk_pro_right-3-800px.jpg)
This is not ideal, but it's not a great amount of bend either. I'd probably notice a little "shhh" sound when gliding on it, but it shouldn't affect much else. I've skated on blades like that before, having discovered it after a year of usage.
I can make a little press in the shop to straighten it to perfection.
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Very interesting the deviations in quality between the Wilson blade and the MK.
It's a sample size of 1, so doubtfully exemplary (especially considering I've heard warp stories coming out of both MK and Wilson).
BUT, having said all that....who bought who? Wilson bought MK? The other way 'round? Merge?
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Mike C once told me he returns blade pairs with significantly more than .001 inch warp, because, when you straighten a blade, it sometimes breaks. But it's your call. Also, Mike is unusually picky, and returned about 15% of the blade pairs he was sent, while I watched him work for a while - he told me that the blades he returns often get sent out to other retailers.
But you could try to find out from the retailer if the blades can be returned. Sometimes HD Sports (owns MK and Wilson) is willing to pay return shipping costs, if the flaws are bad enough. If the retailer says no, you could contact the manufacturer.
I used to have a Coronation Ace blade pair which was warped in at least one blade - but I didn't measure how much. But at least one skate literally got hot when I skated, presumably from the extra friction. And they were a lot slower than the MK Dance blades I replaced them with - though that was supposed to be true, even though MK Dance blades are shorter, because MK Dance blades are ground slim line at the bottom. (Maybe the rocker profile and less toe pick configuration help too.)
I'm not certain of the other consequences of warped blades, in terms of how they perform, if you don't straighten them, but some people claim it does affect skating in other ways.
BTW, Mike once worked as a welder, and also did some work in a machine shop. He believed that blade warping probably occurs during the "silver soldering" process (which he thought of as a form of welding) that is used to hold the runner to the rest of the blade. Neither Ultima Matrix nor Paramount runners are attached using form of welding or soldering, which might explain why they produce very few warped blades. (Though I have seen some warped low end Jackson blades that were rivetted together - not sure how they got warped.) OTOH, silver soldering produces very clean looking joints, which you can clearly see on high end MK and Wilson blades, and skating is an appearance-oriented sport.
If you do decide to de-warp the blade anyway, maybe you don't need a jig. What if you put something smooth and straight next to the blade on both side, in a vice, with a gap on one side? Do it slow, with as little thickness as you can, to reduce the amount of inverted warp you need to straighten it. But be careful to cushion it enough that the grooves in the vice don't leave a mark on the blade, or mess up the edge. (I haven't tried it.)
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The jig that I had in mind was to be something that slipped over the jaws of a vice. It might be a while because some paying-job shop work has to be done first. If it gets done, rest assured that I'll have lots of photos of it and how it works (or not).
Overall Fit and Finish
I'm about done assessing the merits of each of these blades, so I thought that I should address any differences in fit and finish - mostly cosmetic issues.
Both blades have wonderful looking fillets where the blades are brazed to the mounting plates. I have never seen a bad joint in a blade over the years, although I'm sure that some get past the manufacturer. Here's a close-up of the joint on a Coronation Ace heel joint. The MK Pro blades looked great too.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/braze_joint_fillet-10-800px.jpg)
The MK Professional front mounting plate on the right blade is very rough on the edge. It wasn't smoothed before plating. In the second photo below you can also see the cupped-shape of the mounting plate, typical of both MK blades.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_mkpro_vs_ace_overall-22-800px.jpg)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_mkpro_vs_ace_overall-30-800px.jpg)
Compare the above with the Ace...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_mkpro_vs_ace_overall-49-800px.jpg)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_mkpro_vs_ace_overall-69-800px.jpg)
The more I think about mounting them, the more I prefer the flat mounting plates on the Aces. If not mounted with care, the cup-shape on the MK could be a repository for water, right next to the leather.
One Ace blade had a little irregularity at the toe pick area. I'm not sure what caused this, but it shouldn't cause any issues.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_mkpro_vs_ace_overall-74-800px.jpg)
Both blades were rough on the upper part of the blade edge. I haven't seen this sort of irregularity before, and it doesn't look typical of a stamped part. This might be a clue how the blades are rough-cut to begin with, but I'm at a loss what caused this sort of surface. Regardless, they plated right over it. Again, it's just cosmetic being out of sight. It's interesting to note that my Aces from 2007 are cross-ground in this area. They are a bit rough too, but from a grinding operation.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_mkpro_vs_ace_overall-38-800px.jpg)
Both blades had identifying information and blade size etched onto the sides of the blades. It is not raised text as you would get with a silkscreen. Laser engraved? Chemical etch? In the past, Wilson blades had blade size stamped into the underside of a mounting plate.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_mkpro_vs_ace_overall-25-800px.jpg)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blades_mkpro_vs_ace_overall-51-800px.jpg)
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I don't worry so much about how flat the mounting plate is. Shim it to fit - you can even use tape, provided it is a reasonably stable type of tape. (Don't use duct tape. The glue gradually peels off, and it changes shape. I've used cloth first aid tape for somewhat similar purposes, precisely because it's pretty stable - though I'm not sure if it's flexibility would be a problem on high jumps.)
But I think Sid Broadbent has it right - CoPlanar mounts are the logical way for the industry to go. Seems so obvious. Mounting would be a lot faster and easier. E.g., you could shift the mount position without re-shimming the blade.
It would be easy to sand the bottom of a boot flat. But much harder to modify blade mounting plates to be CoPlanar.
I once asked a blade manufacturer's rep why they didn't go CoPlanar. They said they wouldn't match most of the boots. So I asked a boot maker why they didn't make the boot bottoms CoPlanar. They said they wouldn't match most of the blade mounting plates.
Huh. I guess, sometimes, a sub-optimal ill-defined standard is seen as better than no standard at all.
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Mike C once told me he returns blade pairs with significantly more than .001 inch warp, because, when you straighten a blade, it sometimes breaks.
I'd be interested in what he considers "significantly more than .001 inch warp"? Does he actually measure down to .001 inch warp accuracy? What tool does he use? I'm familiar with tools used in high-precision machine shops, but I would think the $$$ would be beyond that of skate shops, even high-end skate shops.
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I don't worry so much about how flat the mounting plate is. Shim it to fit - you can even use tape, provided it is a reasonably stable type of tape. (Don't use duct tape. The glue gradually peels off, and it changes shape. I've used cloth first aid tape for somewhat similar purposes, precisely because it's pretty stable - though I'm not sure if it's flexibility would be a problem on high jumps.)
But I think Sid Broadbent has it right - CoPlanar mounts are the logical way for the industry to go. Seems so obvious. Mounting would be a lot faster and easier. E.g., you could shift the mount position without re-shimming the blade.
It would be easy to sand the bottom of a boot flat. But much harder to modify blade mounting plates to be CoPlanar.
I once asked a blade manufacturer's rep why they didn't go CoPlanar. They said they wouldn't match most of the boots. So I asked a boot maker why they didn't make the boot bottoms CoPlanar. They said they wouldn't match most of the blade mounting plates.
Huh. I guess, sometimes, a sub-optimal ill-defined standard is seen as better than no standard at all.
Yeah, it's like the number of hotdogs in a package not matching the number of buns in a package. Meat producers and bakers can't seem to agree.
But I was hoping that once a single company controlled manufacture of both boots and blades we would see progress towards a more rational mounting geometry (such as CoPlanar). Riedell and Jackson now manufacture both boots and blades (I don't know for how long, but at least 5 yrs), and they don't appear to be moving in that direction; a big disappointment.
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About the MK Pro "dished" mounting plate - I would continue to use RTV silicone sealant, probably a hefty dollop, on the bottom of the plate before mounting. It would squeeze into the shape of the space between the blade and sole to provide continuous contact.
I've done that for my current skates, now 12 years old, and there's not even a hint of water damage to the sole.
I know that you've visited the Precision Blade Honing Enterprises web site. They use an epoxy putty as the "gasket" between the shape of the sole and the mounting plate.
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I'd be interested in what he considers "significantly more than .001 inch warp"? Does he actually measure down to .001 inch warp accuracy? What tool does he use? I'm familiar with tools used in high-precision machine shops, but I would think the $$$ would be beyond that of skate shops, even high-end skate shops.
He's a fanatic. I'm sure he has the tools.
I didn't actually see him measure warp accurately. He touched the blades with a precision straight edge, and looked for light to shine through. After 50+ years working in and around ice rinks, he has a good feel for such things. He's done other precision measurements, like compare the relative thickness of the metal plating and the "chrome relief" zones on each side of a blade (he says MK/Wilson sometimes mess that up, creating potential sharpening issues). For that matter, he's done some work in machine shops.
That isn't as crazy as it sounds. Bringing out such tools and parading such knowledge reassures his customers that he will bring the benefit of his fanaticism and expertise to their problems. I watched high profile athletes walk into his shop after flying half-way around the world. Many such people don't just want someone who is merely competent. They want a fanatic, to match their own degree of dedication.
BTW, anyone could improvise a simple long-wise warp measurement tool themselves. Take a good quality metal straight edge, lay it against the blade, and see if you can slip a piece of thin tracing paper anywhere under the straight edge. You can estimate the thickness of the paper, by measuring a stack of 100 or 200 sheets. (I haven't figured out how to accurately measure twist warp.)
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About the MK Pro "dished" mounting plate - I would continue to use silicon sealant, probably a hefty dollop, on the bottom of the plate before mounting. It would squeeze into the shape of the space between the blade and sole to provide continuous contact.
I was at a pro shop today. I looked at the sample Coronation Ace and MK Pro on display [only one blade each, not a pair]. On visual inspection, the sole plate on the Pro was as flat as the one on the Ace. Perhaps the cupped or dished sole plates on your Pros are indicative of manufacturing variation (or defect).
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.... or could it be older stock? 10.25 is a reasonably common size, so it's unlikely to be old, but you never know.
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Just so everyone can get an idea of how dished the front plate is on the MK Pro, here are two photos. Holding a straightedge against the plate easily shows daylight in both photos - left to right, and fore to aft.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/mk-pro_cupped_plate-2-800px.jpg)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/mk-pro_cupped_plate-4-800px.jpg)
I'd estimate that the deepest part is about 3/32".
It looks as if it is an intended feature, but it begs the question "Why?"
And why is the sample observed by tstop4me different? A slipstream design change? Which is representative of the current blade?
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I thought that it might be interesting to show my old Aces in their current condition. This may help explain possible differences in feel when I get the new skates going.
[Click picture to make bigger]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/graph_rocker_both_aces_vs_mk_pro.gif)
The toe pick end is on the left, tail is on the right. The vertical scale is greatly expanded.
I note that about 0.10" of metal has been worn away over the 12-years of usage, with hand-sharpening only. I also calculated the rocker main radius to be at 8' after all the sharpenings. That's not surprising.
It will be a significant change going to the nearly 7' rockers of the new blades.
If these were new, and without the wear-related rocker radius increase, they'd probably be closer to the MK Pro profile than the new Ace.
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It is unlikely the blade markings are laser engraved. Etch or anodization processes seem more likely to me.
Surely mounting the blade warps it more than 0.001".
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I would also expect that mounting puts enough force on the blade to slightly warp it. With un-matched mounting surfaces, it would be hard to avoid.
There is the change of thickness along the length of both of these blades, and my old pair too. If one side is flat to within 0.001", then the other side cannot be.
0.001" is an exceedingly tiny amount.
Edit: Fixed typos. I shouldn't post in a hurry when my wife is calling for me to come upstairs.
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Surely mounting the blade warps it more than 0.001".
I would also expect that mounting puts enough force on the blade to slightly warp it. With un-matched mounting surfaces, it would be hard to avoid.
There is the change of thickness in both of these blades, and my old pair too, to remember. If one side is flat to withing 0.001", then the other will not be.
0.001" is an exceedingly tiny amount.
I'm glad others here appreciate how small a tolerance .001" is; difficult to measure ... and even more difficult to achieve in a consumer product. Especially in view of the aspect ratio of a blade: a thickness of only about .160" or less, but with a length of up to about 12" or more.
Note there are three related parameters: thickness variation, bow, and warp. If you try to measure bow and warp of a blade to an accuracy of .001" by placing the blade in direct contact with a reference surface, the reference surface would need to be flat to
+/- .0001" over a 12" or more length.
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It certainly appears in the graph that the Ace (in red) has a compound curve (3 radii?). It has a bulge at ~1.5" to 3" from the root of the drag pick. The MK Pro curve (green) appears to be a simpler two-curve shape.
BTW, the Ace rocker radius in the 2"-3" area is calculated to be 14.8". The tightest I found so far on the MK Pro is 18.75" in the 2"-3" area. This goes counter to some of the charts that I've seen at retail web sites which claim that the MK Pro has a smaller spin rocker (12") than the Ace. From the graph, I don't think I could find a 12" radius curve anywhere on the MK Pro.
Bill, when you have the time, could you do sliding window fits, as you did previously? I'm curious whether you actually detect evidence in new blades to support Paramount's characterization of a compound radius (12" and 27") spin rocker on the Ace and a single radius (12") spin rocker on the Pro, even if the values differ from 12" and 27". Also interested in variations in the main rocker radius along the length of the blade in new blades.
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OK, I'll put it on the list.
I made rocker measurements in 1/4" increments along the blade's length to facilitate doing that.
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Just as a curiosity, with your rocker guage, if you do measurements off the left and right edges of the same blade, how similar are the rocker profiles?
Bill, as to your question as to why there is a base plate warp of close to 1/10" - I assume it is because of what I mentioned before - that the manufacturers say that bottoms of most base plates are deliberately made warped, because most boot bottoms are warped. And vice-versa. I.E., past history, rather than an attempt at a new optimal design. When I mentioned Sid Broadbent claim that mounting would be easier if baseplates and boot bottoms were be fully CoPlanar, the people I talked to at boot and blade companies agreed, in theory - but they still kept doing it the way it had been done before, because that was what was expected.
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I was at a pro shop today. I looked at the sample Coronation Ace and MK Pro on display [only one blade each, not a pair]. On visual inspection, the sole plate on the Pro was as flat as the one on the Ace. Perhaps the cupped or dished sole plates on your Pros are indicative of manufacturing variation (or defect).
I'm beginning to suspect the curvature of the sole plate is a matter of manufacturing variation (perhaps induced during brazing?). I was back at the pro shop. This time I brought a steel machinist's ruler with me. I did a quick check of three Wilson blades (Coronation Ace, Gold Seal, Pattern 99) and two MK blades (Professional and Gold Star). They all showed some degrees of curvature longitudinally (toe to heel), transversely (inside edge to outside edge), or both. Specifically for CA vs Pro, longitudinal curvature was more pronounced for CA than for Pro, but transverse curvature was more pronounced for Pro than for CA (this is upon simple visual inspection against the straight edge; no measurements). Even the solid Gold Seal sole plate had some visible curvature.
I have 4 pairs (8 blades) of used Coronation Ace stashed away; late 1970's to 2014 vintage. The sole plates on two blades were nominally flat longitudinally and transversely; the sole plates on the other blades had some degree of curvature either longitudinally, transversely, or both. The sole plates on my old Eclipse Aurora had more pronounced curvature both longitudinally and transversely than on any of the CA's.
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Good to know. Thanks for reporting on this. It appears that the amount of mounting plate curvature varies quite a bit, especially between manufacturers.
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Rocker Radii Sliding Window Calculations
To calculate a rocker radius, you need to have measured coordinates for three points along the curve. I employed the data found for the rockers previously used for plotting curves. With those numbers already in hand, I used an online calculator from http://www.ambrsoft.com/trigocalc/circle3d.htm (http://www.ambrsoft.com/trigocalc/circle3d.htm) to do the number crunching to find radii.
Using a series of three measurements at various places along the blade, you achieve a "sliding window" measurement that shows how the rocker changes from tip to toe. The trouble with doing this is that precision decreases with smaller "windows" along the blade. Long radii, such as the main rocker, are especially prone to a lack of precision. One answer is to spread out the three measured points instead of having them crowded together. A better precision measuring device would also help.
At any rate, here are some graphics that I put together after doing the calculations from earlier measurements.
The Coronation Ace blade...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/ace_sliding_rocker_radius_gradient.png)
The MK Professional blade...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/mk_pro_sliding_rocker_radius_gradient.png)
I indicated the "window" size using the width of the translucent color blocks, with the calculated radius immediately above them. Some overlapping exists, so I thought that translucent tints would allow the viewer to see the distances used. Most "windows" have the third middle point equi-distant from the ends, except for the tail of the blade where I ran out of room.
Vertical height of the colored blocks doesn't signify anything. It was merely a way to give the jumble of numbers some space from each other.
I've also indicated the non-skating zone for each of the blades. When a blades is pressed forward until the lowest pick touches, there is some distance along the curved blade that doesn't touch. Even though I've included some radii for the blades in this non-skating zone, it is essentially a useless number for actual skating. It never touches the ice. However the spin rocker will be immediately beyond it.
You can see that I calculated the rocker between 5" and 8" for both blades, and that spreads the points out enough that the number should be accurate. I used a smaller 2" sliding window for most of the calculations, so you will see a little scatter in the numbers there.
This is a long and complicated post, and most readers will just gloss over it. However I know that at least a couple of you are interested.
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tstop asked...
I'm curious whether you actually detect evidence in new blades to support Paramount's characterization of a compound radius (12" and 27") spin rocker on the Ace and a single radius (12") spin rocker on the Pro, even if the values differ from 12" and 27".
It looks like the new Ace does have a compound spin rocker, but the spin rocker on the Pro will be about double the 12" value you cited.
It begs the question, which is better, a gentle rocker that doesn't change much with distance (MK Pro) or the compound rocker with a tight radii at one small point (Ace)?
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* Gee, Bill, great combo of detailed analysis and clear presentation graphics. Not sure how many here will appreciate what you've done; but I certainly do.
* One surprising result is that, although the spin rocker profiles of the CA and Pro are substantially different, the heel lifts are nominally the same. That means the heel lift does not correlate well with the spin rocker profile. Looks like variations in the main rocker profile (particularly the rounding near the tail?) disrupts any correlation.
* Your results on the CA do reasonably support Paramount's conclusion of a nominal compound spin rocker (close enough to a 12" radius behind the drag pick, followed by a 27" radius transition zone leading to the main rocker).
* The biggest surprise of all is the spin rocker on the Pro. Your results do reasonably support a nominal single radius spin rocker, but the smallest local radius is only ~21", not 12". This will come as a major disappointment (and shock) to coaches who recommend the Pro over the CA specifically for spins, precisely because the Pro ostensibly has a rounder spin rocker. What is not known, and what you can't answer, is what the manufacturing variation is.
If you bought the Pro specifically with the expectation of a rounder spin rocker than the CA, perhaps you should consider requesting an exchange (in case you got an extra flat sample)?
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This will come as a major disappointment (and shock) to coaches who recommend the Pro over the CA specifically for spins, precisely because the Pro ostensibly has a rounder spin rocker. What is not known, and what you can't answer, is what the manufacturing variation is.
If you bought the Pro specifically with the expectation of a rounder spin rocker than the CA, perhaps you should consider requesting an exchange (in case you got an extra flat sample)?
In all the reading I've done since I've come back to skating, it's the CA that is known for having practically the roundest spin rocker on the market. CA for spins, Pro for jumps.
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In all the reading I've done since I've come back to skating, it's the CA that is known for having practically the roundest spin rocker on the market. CA for spins, Pro for jumps.
All I can say is that's the opposite of what I've read and of what three coaches, including my own, have told me.
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This confusion doesn't surprise me. I've heard it both ways, and it's one of the reasons I'm taking such a close look at these two blades.
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I made a simple bending fixture from oak and some pieces of angle iron from an old bed frame. Earlier I wrote that the right MK Pro blade was not completely straight from tip to toe. This fixture was made in an attempt to straighten it.
Here's the fixture that I cobbled together. It attaches to a common vice that provides the "squeeze". The forms that bear against the blade each have a large radii, and rubber is attached to the business side of them. The arc-shaped jaws spread the load more evenly on the blade, and reduces the likelihood of a sharp local deformation.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_bending_jig-25-800px.jpg)
It was scary how much the blade bent while pressing, hoping for a slight permanent yield after release. I started with a light press, checked for progress, then incremented the force each additional time.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_bending_jig-19-800px.jpg)
Did I straighten the blade?
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_bending_jig-22-800px.jpg)
Nope. I gave up while I was still ahead. It kept springing back like nothing had happened.
I figured that I might pass its yield point suddenly and I'd have a completely trashed blade. It could have bent sharply in a small local area instead of a gentle straightening along its length. The deformation of the blade in the fixture was getting too much for me to watch, so I chickened out.
Today's experiment was a fail, but at least I didn't trash the blade. I also determined that this blade is one-tough cookie!
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This video from ProSharp indicates that straightening detachable hockey runners is viable (though it looks a bit too easy): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPos5tvTJ68. But figure skate blades (thicker, wider, brazed) are indeed tough cookies. You really should consider requesting an exchange.
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I figured that I might pass its yield point suddenly and I'd have a completely trashed blade.
The problem is that you need to pass the yield point, since you are intentionally trying to plastically deform the blade. With your three-point nominal (three-region actual) contact jig with a curved platen, the maximum deflection is not sufficiently constrained; and so, if you apply too much stress, you can end up with a plastically deformed blade with a curvature opposite of your initial curvature (or worse). Also, not sure what damage is done to the plating.
Another approach would be to clamp the blade between a pair of smoothly-polished, hard-faced, parallel platens. That way, the maximum deflection is constrained, and you cannot over-correct. Not sure whether a manual vise would work though; or whether a hydraulic press would be needed. And I'd still be concerned about damage to the plating; and perhaps the hardened edge zone.
But interesting experiment. Took a lot of guts; that's for sure. Did you try it on an old pair of blades first, or did you just go for it?
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:pop: :pop: :pop:
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Did you try it on an old pair of blades first, or did you just go for it?
No, I just went for it. Just like trying an Axel in your late 60s, you just don't have time otherwise.
This blade really wants to be skated on. It's as tough as a car spring.
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It's as tough as a car spring.
According to MK (https://www.mkblades.com/about-our-blades):
"Spring Steel Memory
We only select the finest spring steel to allow for just enough flex whilst always returning to its original shape."
You've confirmed that's not empty hype. Now, if only the original shape were flat ....
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Interestingly, my kid had a pair of coro aces that she regularly bent from toe pick to tail - we were told by the tech it was due to her pronation. It only happened on the left and she pronates much more on that foot than the right. The tech would clamp it down for the night and it would be straight in the morning. I can't remember how long she could go without having it straightened, but it was a few times for as long as she had that blade (probably less than a year).
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Wow! How much did the blade bend?
Bending while skating sounds like how soft annealed steel (i.e. not tempered) might behave, and that's an entirely possible manufacturing mistake. But even then, the clamping overnight fix is puzzling because steel shouldn't creep (cold flow) like that at room temperatures.
Edit: DressmakingMomma: I don't doubt your experience that the blade got straighter. The mechanism by which it straightened is what's puzzling, and may point to something else.
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Bill, I think your jig looks very cool, and looks a lot more beefy than anything I would have cooked up.
How long did you keep the blade deformed? My best guess, which may be completely wrong, is that the idea that metal deforms reversibly until you abruptly pass the "yield point" isn't quite right. I'm pretty sure that isn't true for leather - if you leave something stretched overnight, a little bit of stretch can slowly have an effect - over a period of days. Admittedly, leather probably doesn't have the crystalline grain structure that steel does, and it is possible you may need to break down that grain structure, and move around the inclusions that harden the steel by making plastic deformation more difficult, in order to alter a blade's shape much, and that might occur fairly abruptly rather than gradually. But i do know that if you flex at least some steel springs often enough, even a little, the spring constant becomes weaker, which suggests that time spent deformed is very important. I do not know whether many repeated deformations would also help, or if that would simply make the metal more brittle - it is well known that repeated deformations can make at least some steel blades brittle, though I'm not clear how that differs from mechanical tempering techniques, such as bombarding steel with metal balls, that have the opposite effect.
Part of the problem here may also be that it is partly the "Silver solder" joint rather than the metal itself which needs to deform - and it is POSSIBLE (not certain) that it breaks more easily than that wonderfully resilient spring steel. Even if that isn't true, the joint must introduce extra stresses in the other blade components when you try to unbend them.
I don't know if this will help - but "Mr. Edge" at https://geppettosskateshop.com often answers questions over the phone or email. I asked him a few once, over the phone. I am told he is one of the world's most respected skate techs. He and Mike Cunningham (the other widely acknowledged world class tech I've dealt with, the one who mentioned not unwarping by more than about 1 mm) seem to have each others' mutual respect, though they disagree on a lot of issues. Unfortunately, I don't know who the other world class techs are - I wish I did. Anyway, you can try calling "Mr. Edge" for advice.
You could also look for videos on how to unwarp steel blades. E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL2XxWyVfGM talks about using heat, which would really scare me - and might ruin the finish. That video also claims that blades often warp during the tempering cycles - and he sounds like he is familiar with basic applied metallurgy than most people. Perhaps your friendly neighborhood blacksmith could also give you some useful advice.
I take it that you view this as an applied engineering study, and are willing to risk breaking blades. I guess safe non-destructive testing only takes you so far on the path to ultimate metallurgical enlightenment that you seek. If an "expert" is simply someone who has learned from making the most common mistakes, than you may be following the best possible path to true enlightenment.
Imagine how much less you could have learned if you had received two perfectly unwarped blades? Be sure to thank MK for the prefect opportunity to learn! :)
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Last evening, I switched from my old 2007 Coronation Aces to the new ones. Remember that new, the 2007 blade had a different spin rocker profile than the one that replaced it. I was curious about the difference in feel on ice.
First, the blade swap. It went mostly without any serious issues. I pulled off the old blades, then removed the silicone "gasket" between blade and boot so that I could mark the original blade orientation.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_change_ace-11-800px.jpg)
With the silicone removed from the center of the mounting plate, I could remount the original blades and carefully mark the sole where the blades fell. I used a small try-square. Holding the square flat against left, then right edges at both the front and at the heel, I drew lines on the soles as alignment guides to position the new blades when mounting them. Having already established where the old blades should be, I avoided having to adjust the new blades left or right at the rink.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_change_ace-17-800px.jpg)
Here is one blade while it was being mounted. The 1/4" difference in length is obvious at the heel.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_change_ace-23-800px.jpg)
Naturally I had to drill new holes in the heel for the shorter blades, but I also had to do a little re-drilling on the left blade's front plate. The new blade and old blade mounting holes were a little different.
I also sharpened both blades. The left blade was skatable as-is, but the right blade had one fairly dull edge. I decided to put my preferred 3/8" ROH on both blades to keep them similar to the old ones. Hand sharpening took about an hour for both.
Now the first skating report, new Coronation Aces...
The ice this morning wasn't the best because of condensation bumps, but it wasn't terrible after I used a shovel to scrape the biggest offenders flat.
Stroking, both backward and forward: Even though the rocker on the old blades had become 8' because of all the sharpenings since 2007, the new ~7' rocker didn't feel that different. I could skate just like I used to. No issues at all. I felt right at home.
Three turns: I could feel a little difference, especially if I made the mistake of getting a little forward on the blade after the turn. It's a little hard to describe the feel, but after a turn while forward on the blade, I felt like I hooked into the center of the circle fairly quickly, and ended up on toe picks easily. By the end, I had become used to it without any further issues.
Brackets: I tried just my favorites, the forward inside brackets. This experiment was a little later into the skating session, and they were not much different from what I was accustomed to. I did note on one or two examples that I had the same problem as with three turns. If I got a little forward, the edge suddenly turned deeper, and I ended on my picks. Otherwise, the feel was very close to my old Aces.
Spins: Remember that I've had troublesome spin days before, and this might just be one of them. However, I just could not get a centered spin on these new blades. The feel was very different from my old Aces. I tried mightily, but couldn't find center. I'd either fall to the inside, or be too far outside the circle. I also found that it was easy to end up too far forward onto the toe picks.
It could be the particular day and my maddening variable performance, or perhaps this is something with the blade that I have to get used to over time. This blade was NO magic bullet for spinning today. I'll give them another day or two of trials, then it's on to the MK Pros.
And I do wish that my SkateScience dance blades would come while I'm in the middle of all this testing.
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I am SO enjoying your retirement, Bill. Blessings and thanks for sharing!
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Coronation Ace testing, second day on ice
I attended this morning's freestyle session, and the ice was free from condensation bumps. The ice cut was made the evening before.
Just like yesterday, stroking and turns felt almost the same. Things that involve spinning a bit on the blade (spins, twizzles) are harder for me to adjust to. I did manage to do better today on spins, but they are nowhere near where they should be. I also discovered that my favorite one-revolution, repeating "twizzles" were more difficult. I used to be able to string together 5 or 6 of those down the ice. I could do just two good ones, and the third started getting away from me.
The curvier rocker may have manifested itself today. There were two times where I felt (temporarily) like I was going off the back of my skates. That has happened in the past or course, but having that feeling twice in one day is more than most. I will attribute that to the rocker instead of my skating, although it could be just me.
If I keep these mounted, it will take more time to adapt to the changes from my old Aces. However, I'm getting anxious to put on the MK Professionals for a trial. Having available free time might dictate when the switch happens. Today is booked, and I've got a request for some framed photos for my sister-in-law's office.
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Coronation Ace testing, second day on ice
The curvier rocker may have manifested itself today. There were two times where I felt (temporarily) like I was going off the back of my skates. That has happened in the past or course, but having that feeling twice in one day is more than most. I will attribute that to the rocker instead of my skating, although it could be just me.
We all got a good chuckle the last time my daughter got new blades. She fell off the backs so many times the first week, but always while standing still and talking to her coach at the boards. She be standing there and then woosh, she would be on her butt. She didn't get hurt and also would burst into giggles. Her spins and footwork get wonky for a week or so until she finds the "spot" again anytime she has had to make a switch.
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Ha - great story, and sounds so familiar.
I anticipated being completely biased toward my familiar old blades, but it's unsettling to actually feel the bias in action.
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What have you done about the warp?
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The warp is on one of the MK blades. I couldn't get it straightened, so I'll mount it and try it as-is. Right now, I'm still on the new Aces.
I estimated the max curvature on that blade to be 0.020", or about 0.5mm. I suspect that's fairly common.
BTW, I did fall off the back of the Aces today. I was attempting a LBO to RFI Chocktaw with a forward ending position for my free foot, and swoosh, over the backs of the blades I went.
The whole morning's skate was a disaster, but then again, I arose at 2:47 a.m. and couldn't get back to sleep. I was a walking zombie when the 7:30 a.m. session started.
I've got some magazine stuff to work on this weekend, my wife wants to go to Columbus to shop, and I promised my sister-in-law three matted and framed photographic prints for her office. That's really eating into my blade research time!
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Fourth day skating report, Coronation Aces
I spent 1-1/2 hours this afternoon on a lightly-attended freestyle session, attempting to become accustomed to the new blades. As before, I have no trouble with forward or backward stroking. Sharp turns, or on flats, it is nearly the same as before. Patterns of alternating edges forward or backward, very little change in feel.
Three turns suffer a little if my balance isn't on the proper spot. The blade wants to "turn-in" sharper than my old Aces. Overall though, the difference is small.
Brackets and counters are solid.
The 900-pound gorillas fighting me are spins and twizzles. I did manage a couple decent spins today, so I must be getting somewhat used to them. I still can't really find the sweet spot for spinning, and I'm hunting around as I go. Not pretty to look at!
It might be a few days before I have the time to mount the MK Professionals, so I imagine I'll still be on these new Aces for a little while longer. I'm getting anxious to try the other blades.
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Fifth day skating, Coronation Aces
I spent 1:15 hours on the ice today. Spins were better, although nowhere near what they should be. I'm still struggling to find the right balance over this new spin rocker. I'm sure that I'd adjust in time. But being able to do a half-dozen revolutions upright is a good sign that I might be adjusting. It's slow going though.
Freshly Zammed ice today felt slippery. I was able to hold deep edges. It surprises me sometimes that I don't just lose grip and fall, but I'm "riding on rails". Speed was good.
I expected to feel a substantial difference in speed between these new sub-7' rockers and my old ones flattened to 8' after years of sharpening. Frankly, the ice condition makes much more difference in speed than this subtle change in rocker. Maybe if figure skating were a contest of speed, the micro-advantage of a flatter 8' rocker would show, but I just can't feel it.
But I certainly can feel the curvier rocker on occasion, I just can't feel any slowness or additional drag.
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I expected to feel a substantial difference in speed between these new sub-7' rockers and my old ones flattened to 8' after years of sharpening. Frankly, the ice condition makes much more difference in speed than this subtle change in rocker. Maybe if figure skating were a contest of speed, the micro-advantage of a flatter 8' rocker would show, but I just can't feel it.
But I certainly can feel the curvier rocker on occasion, I just can't feel any slowness or additional drag.
Yeah, there are a lot of variables in ice skating; and skaters' experiences vary. When I switched from a 7' main rocker (Eclipse Aurora and Wilson Coronation Ace) to an 8' main rocker (Paramount version of Wilson Gold Seal), I was pleasantly surprised at the faster glide; I wasn't really expecting much of a difference. One of my warm-up drills is stroking backwards down the whole length of the ice. The first time on my Paramounts, I actually overshot the red line and hit the boards (fortunately not too hard); something I never did before. And on my Figure-8's, right off I had no problems routinely completing full circles on a single push, with momentum to spare; previously, I'd often just barely complete a circle, petering out at the end. That gave me a great deal of satisfaction. My coach was real happy to see me finally do decent Figure-8's. My cross-overs also picked up a lot more speed; a bit scary at first.
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I expected to feel a substantial difference in speed between these new sub-7' rockers and my old ones flattened to 8' after years of sharpening. Frankly, the ice condition makes much more difference in speed than this subtle change in rocker.
Is it possible that your old 8' rocker blades didn't let you take full advantage of the faster speed and longer glide a flatter rocker should have given you, because you had lost enough metal that your toe pick interfered with getting a full length stroke?
Those nice deeply leaned edges that you are managing should also make you faster. I believe that a less worn blade lets me lean further, because I am further off the ice (again, more metal) without impinging too much on the side of the boot.
I personally think blade sharpness makes at least as big a difference as rocker.
It is great that you are adapting well to the new blades.
It's a shame there is no economically practical way to vary one shape variable at a time, and alliteratively converge on the best choice.
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I would have known about any toe pick touchdown, at least when the noisy dehumidifier wasn't running. :D I'm sure that wasn't the issue.
I completely agree that my skates feel faster right after a sharpening. They can get downright "slippery" feeling. That is easy to notice.
I put in 45 minutes of skating today, but with arthritis pain flaring up in my left foot, I left early. While there, I skated like an elderly person doing safe things, so nothing of value to report.
Meanwhile... I thought that I'd better get an 8' rocker blade to test. I placed an order with Kinzie's Closet yesterday. I'll start a new thread when the pair of blades arrives.
The MK Pros are up next to complete this thread before I try the new 8' blades.
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Meanwhile... I thought that I'd better get an 8' rocker blade to test. I placed an order with Kinzie's Closet yesterday. I'll start a new thread when the pair of blades arrives.
A cliffhanger? What blades did you order?
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Just as long as it isn't an Ultima. Most of them have a much more curved and shorter spin rocker, and take a lot of time to adapt to (I took over a year), because you keep accidentally touching the toe pick. Even once you get used to it, you have a shorter roll of the blade, giving you less speed and power. OTOH, it is easier to reach the toe pick - which is good for jumps, and if you do them, pivots, and MAYBE for other things.
It's the only thing I dislike about my Ultima blades, but it is a doozy. I wonder if any of the newest crop of Ultima blades have a shape more like the MK and Wilson blades...
Incidentally, on the devices sold that are supposed to measure blade wear, e.g., by checking how far you can roll before the toe pick touches, or how long the region between where the toe pick touches on a rigid flat surface (which ice isn't) and where the farthest forward part of the rest of the blade is, they generally say Ultima blades are already worn out when new, because of the shape difference. I think they were designed for typical MK and Wilson blades.
So far the fastest and longest gliding figure skating blade I have found is the MK Dance. (But speed skates. and sometimes to some extent hockey skates, are a lot faster.) But for some reason, they are rather pricey. Maybe it is because MK gives away blades to very high profile elite skaters and coaches, which in turn might help explain why almost all the Olympic ice dancers use them, even though the Ultima Dance blades (last I knew) are much more reliably shaped and less likely to be warped.
But it will be very interesting to see how expanding your selection affects your blade reviews. And whether you end up deciding you still like best what you have used for many years.
Have you thought of going to a pro shop who's manager you know well enough, and tracing many types of blade, and imposing the rocker profile on cheap blades, for test purposes? I have thought of doing the measurement part. In part because I would also love to know how rocker profile varies with blade length within the same model. My suspicion is that the front of the blade is identical, because that is what the chief sharpener for Riedell, just before they came out with the Eclipse line, thought was true. I wonder if that actually makes sense, or whether the shapes, including spin rocker length, tail extension, and rocker radii, would be better off being scaled.
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Jackson UB40 Protege
Measurements and comments will follow in a separate thread.
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Next purchase....Gold Seals?? ;D ;D
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Because of the tapered blade and "hollow grind", I can't sharpen those easily.
If I had a Wissota or Blademaster power sharpener with the appropriate skate holder, yes, but that's a little outside of the budget right now.
But a fellow can dream.
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Just as long as it isn't an Ultima. Most of them have a much more curved and shorter spin rocker, and take a lot of time to adapt to (I took over a year), because you keep accidentally touching the toe pick. Even once you get used to it, you have a shorter roll of the blade, giving you less speed and power. OTOH, it is easier to reach the toe pick - which is good for jumps, and if you do them, pivots, and MAYBE for other things.
It's the only thing I dislike about my Ultima blades, but it is a doozy. I wonder if any of the newest crop of Ultima blades have a shape more like the MK and Wilson blades...
Incidentally, on the devices sold that are supposed to measure blade wear, e.g., by checking how far you can roll before the toe pick touches, or how long the region between where the toe pick touches on a rigid flat surface (which ice isn't) and where the farthest forward part of the rest of the blade is, they generally say Ultima blades are already worn out when new, because of the shape difference. I think they were designed for typical MK and Wilson blades.
These two statements contradict each other. Yes, Sid Broadbent's Wellness Gauge is nominally calibrated for Wilson and MK spin rockers (as is the Blade Curvature Gauge from PBHE). The Wellness Gauge shows new Ultima blades as worn out (ready for discard); comparison of heel lifts also show new Ultima blades as comparable to worn Wilson and MK blades. These results are shown in the Paramount video on Lift Angles (https://www.paramountskates.com/videos). If you accept these results, that means the Ultima blades have flatter, not rounder, spin rockers than Wilson and MK blades. The Paramount video on Blade Profiles compares the spin rockers of the Wilson Gold Seal vs. the Ultima Supreme (at ~2:15 in the video), showing the flatter spin rocker on the Ultima.
Interesting that you've found Ultima blades to have too round a spin rocker. Anecdotally, skaters, coaches, and tech's I've talked to have agreed that Ultima blades have flatter spin rockers than comparable Wilson and MK blades. But given Bill's contrarian results on the MK Pro spin rocker, it'll be interesting what his measurements show for the Ultima Protege. Of course, we still won't know what the manufacturing variation of various blades is.
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MK Pros are mounted, sharpened, and ready for tomorrow morning.
I hope my foot doesn't bother me so I can put them through the paces fairly.
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MK Pros are mounted, sharpened, and ready for tomorrow morning.
I hope my foot doesn't bother me so I can put them through the paces fairly.
Since you've gone this far, looks like you've decided not to return them. Despite valiant efforts, you weren't able to straighten the bent blade. If you find that the bend does interfere with your skating, you could probably straighten it during the mounting procedure. Assuming the bend is a simple bow (which your photos seem to indicate), such as (, rather than a warp, such as ~, you could probably offset the heel and sole plates to straighten the blade on the boot. About 5 yrs ago, when I first started playing around mounting my own blades, I was sloppy about lining up the mounting holes. The unmounted blade was straight, but the mounted blade was bowed. I was surprised that misaligned screws could exert enough stress to bend the blade, but they did. When I demounted the blade, fortunately it sprang back to straight (didn't exceed the yield point). I then plugged up the holes, drilled new holes more carefully, and mounted the blade straight.
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These two statements contradict each other. Yes, Sid Broadbent's Wellness Gauge is nominally calibrated for Wilson and MK spin rockers (as is the Blade Curvature Gauge from PBHE). The Wellness Gauge shows new Ultima blades as worn out (ready for discard); comparison of heel lifts also show new Ultima blades as comparable to worn Wilson and MK blades. These results are shown in the Paramount video on Lift Angles (https://www.paramountskates.com/videos). If you accept these results, that means the Ultima blades have flatter, not rounder, spin rockers than Wilson and MK blades. The Paramount video on Blade Profiles compares the spin rockers of the Wilson Gold Seal vs. the Ultima Supreme (at ~2:15 in the video), showing the flatter spin rocker on the Ultima."
The Ultima spin rocker region is shorter - so the Wellness Gauge is partly measuring the effect of the main rocker.
My interpretation of the problems I had adapting to the Ultima blades are as follows: The longer (less curved) main rocker, combined with the longer roll distance to the sweet spot (where the main rocker curvature changes to the spin rocker curvature) combine to mean that more strength is required to reach the sweet spot, and more angular speed is required of my ankle. Then, the shorter roll to the toe pick means that I had to abruptly counteract that ankle point motion, in a shorter distance and time, and that the shorter spin rocker meant that the change in force needed to keep rolling was much less - so I kept crashing against the toe pick when I only meant to dwell on the sweet spot. I believe that the resulting issues mean that you have to be a more skilled skater, with faster reflexes, to use the high end Ultima blades, than the high end MK and Wilson blades.
BTW, Matrix blades, as far as I know, have the same blade shapes as the lower line models with the same name. At least that is what the Jackson people I talked to thought, though they weren't sure. And now it may be different - my experience is based on an earlier Matrix line (the Matrix I line, with interchangeable blade runners), which is no longer in production, though I have enough runners (Dance, Surpreme [a much higher level freestyle runner than I should have tried to use], and Synchro, to last me the rest of my lifetime.
Interesting that you've found Ultima blades to have too round a spin rocker. Anecdotally, skaters, coaches, and tech's I've talked to have agreed that Ultima blades have flatter spin rockers than comparable Wilson and MK blades.
I think there could be that perception, because the spin rocker applies to a shorter distance along the blade, and the sweet spot is further forward. So I guess people think the are on the spin rocker when they are really still on the main rocker, because the sweet spot is so much further forward.
(However it has been quite some time since I measured the main and spin rockers of various blades, and the position of the spin rocker. It is possible I have somehow reversed something in my mind - but I don't think so.)
I think, but am not sure, that the toe pick on the Ultima Dance are longer and more aggressive than they were on the MK Dance, but I didn't actually measure that.
BTW, if money were no object, I would return to MK Dance, because I really loved them. Though I suppose it is possible I am now used to tUltima, and would need a similar adaption period to transition back. :) Alas, after investing in the Matrix blade holders and all the runners I could find in my size (because they discontinued Matrix I just after I bought it - argh!), along with extra of the bolts that hold the Matrix I runners in place (which wore out quickly - a major defect of the original Matrix I design), I felt it would be too much of a waste to throw them out and buy MK Dance blades again.
It really annoys me that some kids adapt really fast to blade model changes, and I had so much trouble. I'm a lot older; maybe that explains it. Still - it isn't fair. I'm not alone. I have known a lot of adults who tried to switch blade models, and ended up going back to what they were already using, because it is harder for adults to adapt to new things.
But given Bill's contrarian results on the MK Pro spin rocker, it'll be interesting what his measurements show for the Ultima Protege. Of course, we still won't know what the manufacturing variation of various blades is.
BTW, Jackson implies Protege (https://jacksonultima.com/collections/blades/products/ultima-protege) are only intermediate level blades, designed for people starting to learn double jumps. That might conceivable mean it is less aggressive, and is easier to deal with than the Jackson Ultima Supreme, Dance and Synchro runners I tried - I just don't know.
BTW I simply haven't tried all types of blades. I generalize from a much smaller collection than Bill, and I'm not as good a skater.
For that matter, Mike C in his shop once showed me that at least one of the common high end freestyle blades (Gold Seal??) had changed a lot over the years. He showed me the toe pick position of old and new style blades, and they were much different. Of course that might make sense - over the years, there has been a strong emphasis in Freestyle on increasing the number of jump rotations, and even the standards by which they are judged have changed. In theory, evolving the shape was the right thing to do, though that may have confused some people.
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BTW, this may be out of date, but MK and Wilson sometimes didn't line up the mounting plate hole centers with the countersink centers. I like to use countersink punches to find the right center position, so the screws seat cleanly - but maybe people with better tool skills don't need that?
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The Ultima spin rocker region is shorter - so the Wellness Gauge is partly measuring the effect of the main rocker.
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I think there could be that perception, because the spin rocker applies to a shorter distance along the blade, and the sweet spot is further forward. So I guess people think the are on the spin rocker when they are really still on the main rocker, because the sweet spot is so much further forward.
(However it has been quite some time since I measured the main and spin rockers of various blades, and the position of the spin rocker. It is possible I have somehow reversed something in my mind - but I don't think so.)
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The above statements indicate to me that your usage of the term "sweet spot" (and maybe even of the term "spin rocker") is different from mine. But I don't won't to clutter up Bill's thread, so I'll spin off a different one.
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MK Professional blades, first day of tests
I attended a morning freestyle today for the first time with these blades. Because of outdoor temperatures in the 90s for several days now, there were some small condensation bumps, fog, and frost on the ice surface. There was no ice cut immediately before freestyle. In other words, it wasn't great ice.
Stroking: It felt almost no different than with the new Aces, which in turn, didn't feel that different from my old, worn Aces. Very easy adjustment.
Tight turns in edges: One thing that I haven't mentioned about either blade is how nicely they turn in very tight turns. By that, I mean turns of a couple feet radius or less when doing figure-style edging, for example. They do track better than my worn-to-8' old blades. The curvier rocker must help with these tight turns.
Three turns: Mostly the same as my old Aces and the new ones. However, like the new Aces, when I get a little forward on the blade, it tends to arc inward and tighten the turn. That usually spells the end of a series of consecutive threes on one foot. As a result, I am doing fewer of these front-back-front-back, etc. turns in before I have to step out. Still, the feeling when on the right part of the blade feels very similar to what I am used to. I'm beginning to believe that it's the 7' rocker on these newer blades compared to the worn-to-8' rocker on my old Aces.
Spins: Oh, my! This is the biggest difference between the new Aces tested last week vs. the current MK Pros. I found it MUCH easier to find the sweet spot. My spins weren't perfect today, but at least I got around a few times. I'm traveling, but at least traveling means that you're spinning.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/ice_10-2-2019-8-800px.jpg)
This is typical of spins from today. While not great, it's better than I was able to do on the new Aces. For spinning, I could get used to this blade much easier than the 2019 Ace.
I managed a few brackets without any trouble. With the marginal ice conditions, I didn't push the trickier turns.
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MK Professional blades, first day of tests
Spins: Oh, my! This is the biggest difference between the new Aces tested last week vs. the current MK Pros. I found it MUCH easier to find the sweet spot. My spins weren't perfect today, but at least I got around a few times. I'm traveling, but at least traveling means that you're spinning.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/ice_10-2-2019-8-800px.jpg)
This is typical of spins from today. While not great, it's better than I was able to do on the new Aces. For spinning, I could get used to this blade much easier than the 2019 Ace.
Bill, that spin is better centered than anything I typically put out. Nice work! I used to skate on Pros, but have switched to aces, mostly because they come in a dance length (I'm a convert- I step on that tail too much!). I'm very curious as to how these work out for you long term. Are they on the other pair of boots, or the same boots you've been using?
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These tests are all on my 12-year old boots. I'm going to decide on blades first, then get them mounted onto the new boots.
I just hope the new boots will be as responsive as the old ones. They seem to know what I am about to do, then help me do it.
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Wait, I thought you bought 2 pairs of new boots? And that you were going to mount the new blades to them?
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I did buy two new boots.
However I'm using my current boots, with which I am very familiar, to be the "mule" for blade testing. That way I can isolate the blade differences from that of new boots. Changing one variable at a time makes comparison easier.
It also avoids having a multitude of mounting holes on the new boots as I experiment with different blades. I'll do that to the worn-down boots that will soon be "put out to pasture" -(furthering the reference to "mule" ;)).
At one point I planned to mount dance blades on one pair, and freestyle blades on another. However the cancellation of my SkateScience dance blades order by the manufacturer may affect my plans.
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Bill that makes perfect sense. You've gotta break those new boots in, too. No point in confusing matters.
I'm totally bummed about the skate science blades. I've been intrigued, but know I'd get in lots of trouble with those toe picks (ice dancers, who've never skated with freestylers don't appreciate toe-pick holes. Straight cut picks and hard, brittle hockey ice are a less-than-ideal combination in that regard!)
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Your spins are infinitely better than mine. I guess you started out with a slight travel, then converged into a fairly clean center. Which I guess means you retain good control of your edges and weight balance.
(I can sometimes initially center, but then lose control and travel a lot. So my spin tracing frequently looks more like twizzle tracing. Oddly enough, when I try to twizzle, I occasionally do center into something more like a spin. :( )
What if you push a little HARD against the blade as you enter the spin - would that stop your initial forwards travel? For me, that initially works, but it pushes me just enough out of balance - sometimes onto completely the wrong edge, and it messes me up even more.
Clearly, in some ways the blades are doing what you want them to do. We'll have to see if you become a convert. But, I assume all blades have good and bad features, and do some things well at the expense of doing others poorly. Otherwise, I guess people would all gravitate towards the same style blade.
S
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The above statements indicate to me that your usage of the term "sweet spot" (and maybe even of the term "spin rocker") is different from mine. But I don't won't to clutter up Bill's thread, so I'll spin off a different one.
Can you link to the new thread?
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Can you link to the new thread?
Need to prep some drawings first; but tied up for now.
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MK Professional blades, second day of tests
The ice was cut before freestyle this morning, and was PERFECT. I told the Zam driver to offer a tip jar. :D
I continue to spin better on these than on the new Aces. I still travel, but with a little work on the free leg position as I start the spin, I tightened things up noticeably. Like any new blade, it's going to take some time to adapt.
I still have a little trouble with the curvier rocker when doing traveling threes. I manage a few of them, then end up either too far forward or back on the rocker. That halts the progression down the ice. Sigh - that used to be a highlight move!
I'm surprised at how well the blade position works without needing adjustment. If someone already has blades that are working and need to change them out, holding a flat rule against the sides of the blades and then marking the positions on the soles and heels really works. None of the blades so far have felt even an iota out of position.
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Obviously, no issues with the one MK blade being warped?
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None detected. I did check flatness after mounting and the bend was reduced, but still not dead flat. However, I can't feel it on the ice.
So far, these blades are shaping up to be my favorites between the new-style Aces and MK Pros. I suspect that's a highly personal thing and that someone else may like the Aces better. One size doesn't fit all.
And frankly, I like my 12-year old Aces better than either of these, but I'm running out of blade life. I'm sure that favorable opinion is because I'm so used to them.
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This thread has been so great, and has given me a lot to think about! Looking to the future, I just assumed I would get CAs when time to upgrade, but your description of how easy the Pros are to spin in may sway me.
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MK Professional blades, second day of tests
I continue to spin better on these than on the new Aces. I still travel, but with a little work on the free leg position as I start the spin, I tightened things up noticeably. Like any new blade, it's going to take some time to adapt.
This is an interesting result on your ease of spin. The plots you showed in Reply #44 indicate that, near the sweet spot, the spin rocker radius is ~12 - 15" for the CA vs ~21 - 24" for the Pro.
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If you look at the graph comparing profiles of my old Aces, you can see that it's radius is about the same as the MK Pro, although the flattened rocker puts it lower.
I suspected that I'd like the MK Pro better. I'm used to a larger spin rocker and one that doesn't change along the length ("compound spin rocker") like new Aces.
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Obviously, no issues with the one MK blade being warped?
None detected. I did check flatness after mounting and the bend was reduced, but still not dead flat. However, I can't feel it on the ice.
Specific things to look for:
Does that blade get warm when you skate (as at least one of my very warped Coronation Ace blades did)? Warmth isn't a problem, but it could indicate an energy loss, that slows down your blade.
Is your glide as long as on the Coronation Aces?
It might also create a sharpening problem if you ever do get they high end bench tool. Obviously, your Pro-Filer follows the warp better than a bench tool.
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I skated a few more times since the last report. I am getting accustomed to the new rocker when doing continuous three-turns down the ice. I skated fairly well this morning, and did OK with spins. I'm sure that with time, I'd do even better with them.
I'm about to switch to Jackson Ultima Protege blades to try, so I'll be removing the Professionals soon. Between the Ace and the Pro, I'd vote for the Pro because it meshes better with my skating style.
That's peculiar, because I've been on three different Aces since around 2001 before I tried these (my fourth pair). I have access to the previous two sets before this pair. The 2007 pair was traced when new. The new 2019 Aces have a different spin rocker when compared.
Over the weekend, I measured my second set of Aces that were worn from 2003 to 2007. Although not new, they were machine sharpened just once, then hand sharpened from 2003-2007. It also doesn't show that little hump around the spin rocker that is evident in the 2019 Ace. I can only conclude that the new spin rocker shape has thrown me off. I was hardly ever able to get up over the blade for a spin.
Here's the graph showing three of the four Coronation Ace blades that I've skated on. The first set from 2001 was given away, so it's not in the graph.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/graph_all_aces.gif)
The other two Aces show some general rocker differences because of sharpenings over their lifespan. However it's easy to see that they have a smoother spin rocker (toward the left side of the graph), which I like. The new Ace, in red, shows the little hump that I've been talking about.
The very different feel between the old vs. new Aces was eye-opening. I presume that I could get used to the new shape over time, but I will move on instead.
In the meantime, the MK Professional blade suites my style the best so far.
I'll be trying at least one more pair of blades, Ultima Protege (see the new thread for them at http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8431.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8431.0)), before I make a firm decision about which blade to mount on my new boots.
In the Ace's favor, it had a better fit and finish compared to all the other blades I've tested. The sides were flat, the plates are polished mirror-smooth, even where it isn't needed. Nice job, John Wilson!
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Here's a question: how easy are backward three turns and brackets on each of the blades? Since they turn on the back of the blade, I'm curious about the flatter tail profiles you've shown us. (Different from running three-turns, which can use momentum and the middle of the blade, which the judges don't want to see on a Moves test.)
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Back threes and brackets were almost the same as before. There was almost no difference unless I rocked too far forward or backward on the new blade's "curvier" main rocker right after the turn, then I'd sometimes cut sharply to inside of the turn.
With the curvier rocker of a new blade, I had to pay attention to technique to prevent rocking. With my old flatter 8" Aces, I could make some subtle foot pressure fore-aft adjustments to compensate.
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Here's a question: how easy are backward three turns and brackets on each of the blades? Since they turn on the back of the blade...
Bill, do you do backwards turns on the back part of the blades? I ask because different coaches have given me different places to do back turns on - many do them near what I call the sweet spot (the cusp between the spin rocker and the main rocker, near the ball of the foot; not what many hockey players call the sweet spot, BTW, which is the flattest rocker region, close to the center of the blade).
So far, while I'm not advanced as you, I guess you had same problem I initially had with Ultima blades: that it takes substantially more strength to make subtle position changes on the main rocker than it does on the spin rocker, because the rocker curvature change is more pronounced, so very subtle pressure changes when passing that sweet spot make the contact point with the ice move too much, and it is easy to overshoot where you want to go on the blade when you pass it. I adapted very slowly and subconsciously, without clear knowledge of how I did it, but maybe someone here who is better than me can give you explicit advice on how to gain that degree of control.
I have never skated on the MK Pro blades. But I wonder to what extent it is a problem, on both the MK Pro and the Protoge blades, that they are perhaps best designed for intermediate freestyle moves like single and double jumps, with a few spins and 3-turns thrown in, which can all be performed near the ends of the blade, whereas I think the Coronation Ace is almost a compromise to also allow moves that are emphasized somewhat more in Dance, like hrackets, counters, and twizzles, which involve a bit more of the middle and sweet spot of the blade. (I'm basing that partly on the fact that when I started ice dance, I was told to switch to Coronation Aces.) Or do I have that completely wrong?
Or maybe you need more experience with the new blades to be certain? A few weeks, for an adult, is a very fast adaption time, and a few weeks, months, or even a year or two from now you might feel very differently about these blades.
I suppose that if you went "all the way" to advanced models with aggressive toe picks like Wilson Gold Seal, or Ultima Supreme (I never fully adapted to the latter, and shouldn't have tried), it would be even harder to adapt.
OTOH, the one "advanced blade" I loved, MK Dance, is super-easy to adapt to, because the toe picks are not very aggressive, the tails are short, and,.being ground thin at the bottom, they are very fast. Easy, that is, for everything but jumps and maybe spins.MK Dance might be an interesting blade, given infinite resources, if you want to try something a lot different from what you are trying now, and you are willing to switch blades for Freestyle practice.
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Bill, do you do backwards turns on the back part of the blades? I ask because different coaches have given me different places to do back turns on...
I make back three-turns further back than when I'm doing front three-turns, but not at the extreme rear of the blade. It's been a while since I paid attention to the weight placement with regard to the blade, but I'm sure that my turns are not at the extreme ends of the blades. My front threes are probably behind the spin rocker a little, back threes (IIRC) feel like the rear of my foot's arch.
... whereas I think the Coronation Ace is almost a compromise to also allow moves that are emphasized somewhat more in Dance, like hrackets, counters, and twizzles, which involve a bit more of the middle and sweet spot of the blade. (I'm basing that partly on the fact that when I started ice dance, I was told to switch to Coronation Aces.) Or do I have that completely wrong?
The new MK Professionals feel closest to my OLD Aces. The new Aces have that unusual bit of spin rocker that makes them feel different when spinning. My perception of the similarities of the MK Pro and old Aces is also exhibited in the graph, with the exception of the flattening wear on the main rocker area. Without that difference, they'd feel as similar as peas in a pod. That makes me think that some of the old adages aren't quite true.
A few weeks, for an adult, is a very fast adaption time, and a few weeks, months, or even a year or two from now you might feel very differently about these blades.
Agreed. I assume that you can get used to about anything over time. You just have to retrain your muscle memory. Starting fresh, it would likely be less of an issue.
However, according to the average US life expectancy for a male, I have just 10 years left. I really do hope to beat that, but I won't waste time on trying to adapt to something that requires a lot of time.
OTOH, the one "advanced blade" I loved, MK Dance, is super-easy to adapt to, because the toe picks are not very aggressive, the tails are short, and,.being ground thin at the bottom, they are very fast.
Because the SkateScience dance blade became unavailable, that's another blade I've been eyeing. It has quite a winning history. I do have two new pairs of boots, so it would be fun to use those on the second pair.
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I suppose that if you went "all the way" to advanced models with aggressive toe picks like Wilson Gold Seal, or Ultima Supreme (I never fully adapted to the latter, and shouldn't have tried), it would be even harder to adapt.
I have the Paramount version of the Gold Seal, and I know several skaters with the genuine Wilson version. The toe picks on the Gold Seal are not aggressive; about the same degree as those on the Coronation Ace.
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I have the Paramount version of the Gold Seal, and I know several skaters with the genuine Wilson version. The toe picks on the Gold Seal are not aggressive; about the same degree as those on the Coronation Ace.
OK. Have you skated on both? If so, how do you feel the Gold Seal and Ace differ, from your point of view as a skater? Or do they feel about the same?
Are they in the same spot on the blade too? That's part of how I personally define aggressive - if you have a large roll distance from your usual skating position to reach the toe pick, then you are less likely to accidentally reach it (a little like a typical rental skate), that is non-aggressive - to me.
In the case of MK Dance, it is only partly the length of the picks. Part of what makes them non-aggressive is the angle at which they stick out. In particular, most freestyle blades are designed so if you stick the toe pick in, they catch hard and tend to vault you into the air. The angle at which the MK Dance picks stick out is such that instead of vaulting into the air, it mostly just stops your forward roll. In some respects the MK Dance are a lot like beginner blades - though the picks are a little easier to reach than on a rental skate, and the shorter tail might mean a complete beginner might fall backwards. The astonishing thing about MK Dance is that they are used by ice dancers all the way up to Olympic level - which kind of suggests that the emphasis in ice dance isn't so much on doing difficult moves (though brackets and especially counters are hard for me, and I have balance problems that mess up twizzles), but on doing fundamental skating moves very well. Of course MK Dance are too expensive for most beginners to justify buying.
One thing has really puzzled me. The difference in rocker profiles between different figure skating blades can usually literally be measured in hundredths of an inch, and the difference between most ROH's as well as various forms of side honing is even smaller. Yet, to the skater, or at least to me, they feel extremely different.
(Another thing that I don't understand is why an intermediate level blade, like MK Pro, which, if I understand correctly, is made of the same materials, and treated with the same metallurgical treatments, as the advanced level blades, is so much cheaper. Is it actually that much less expensive to produce, or is it entirely supply and demand? For that matter, when I've talked to people who work with laser and water cutters on metal, they said they could cut and shape a piece of steel the way figure skating blades are shaped for $1 or $2. At those prices, there should be more competition. Though it is possible the metallurgy is a lot more difficult than those people realize.)
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OK. Have you skated on both? If so, how do you feel the Gold Seal and Ace differ, from your point of view as a skater? Or do they feel about the same?
Are they in the same spot on the blade too? That's part of how I personally define aggressive - if you have a large roll distance from your usual skating position to reach the toe pick, then you are less likely to accidentally reach it (a little like a typical rental skate), that is non-aggressive - to me.
In the case of MK Dance, it is only partly the length of the picks. ....
Yes, I've skated on both; the feel is substantially different [I think I might have a previous post on it; if I find it, I'll post a link.]. As in another thread, your response above indicates that your use of certain terms is different from mine. Don't want to hijack Bill's thread. Further discussion to be deferred to a different [future] thread.
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As in another thread, your response above indicates that your use of certain terms is different from mine. Don't want to hijack Bill's thread. Further discussion to be deferred to a different [future] thread.
I've introduced another thread titled "Standardization of equipment terms within ice skating (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8433.0) :)"
I'd love to see your definitions! The more definitions the merrier.