IJS Scoring for combination jumps

[jumpingbeansmom]

I tried to find this information, but it seemed not as easy to find as I thought!!  So maybe someone can help me....in IJS, how are combination jumps scored?  For example, is a double lutz, double loop, double toe combination literally the same base score as double lutz + double loop + double toe loop?? Or is there some factor for the difficulty of putting them all together?

Also, what is the difference between a combination and a sequence?  Right now, my dd is practicing the above combination as well as axel double toe, double sal double toe and double flip double loop-- and I am trying to understand the scoring! 

I also know she can have five jumps, one must be axel or axel like, three?? can be combination, and one of those can be a 3 jump combo??  (she is juvenile) THANKS

[fsk8r]

As far as I understand it for combinations you add the base values of the jumps together and for sequences there's a multiplier applied which makes a sequence worth less than a combination. I think the multiplier is 0.8, but I think it might have changed this season and I've not competed recently to have needed to look it up.

[jumpingbeansmom]

As far as I understand it for combinations you add the base values of the jumps together and for sequences there's a multiplier applied which makes a sequence worth less than a combination. I think the multiplier is 0.8, but I think it might have changed this season and I've not competed recently to have needed to look it up.

So what IS a sequence?

[fsk8r]

So what IS a sequence?

A sequence is when there's either a non listed jumping in the middle, a hop or other such like, whereas a combination the second jump is straight from the landing of the previous. So your daughter is practicing all combinations as she lands all her jumps and either toes in straight away for the toe loop or just hops staight up into the loop.
My coach currently has me doing waltz side hop salchow which would be an example of a sequence as the side hop isn't a listed jump.

Salchow half loop salchow used to be a sequence, but they've changed the rules (I remember this one!) so that the half loop would count as a loop jump and therefore it becomes a combination.

[jumpingbeansmom]

A sequence is when there's either a non listed jumping in the middle, a hop or other such like, whereas a combination the second jump is straight from the landing of the previous. So your daughter is practicing all combinations as she lands all her jumps and either toes in straight away for the toe loop or just hops staight up into the loop.
My coach currently has me doing waltz side hop salchow which would be an example of a sequence as the side hop isn't a listed jump.

Salchow half loop salchow used to be a sequence, but they've changed the rules (I remember this one!) so that the half loop would count as a loop jump and therefore it becomes a combination.

That makes sense...I think I was confused because last season she had a lutz axel combination, but it came out on the score sheet as a sequence-- I guess because she HAD to take a step?   

[fsk8r]

That makes sense, I think I was confused because last season she had a lutz axel combination, but it came out on the score sheet as a sequence-- I guess because she HAD to take a step?   

Yes, that would be considered a sequence.
(Although I think I read somewhere that they've changed it so that it would be a combination this year but solely so you could add an axel as a second jump, but don't quote me on that one. This unfortunately blurs my understanding of combinations and sequences as the whole taking a step concept was nice and clear to me).

[Isk8NYC]

Lutz-axel or axel-lutz -- doesn't matter, it's a sequence, either way, unless a rule was changed recently.

To go from the Lutz to the axel, the skater has to step forward onto an entrance edge.  Sequence!

To go from an axel landing into a Lutz turning the same way, the skater has to change feet.  Sequence!

I thought about an axel in one direction combined with a Lutz in the other direction, which wouldn't have a step or change of edge, but there is a rule or guideline that says that any sequential jumps starting with an axel (or 2A/3A) was to be considered a sequence.  So, no combination there, either.

I'll see if I can find a link - they made a point of telling us this at the PSA Nationwide Conference last year.

[fsk8r]

Lutz-axel or axel-lutz -- doesn't matter, it's a sequence, either way, unless a rule was changed recently.

To go from the Lutz to the axel, the skater has to step forward onto an entrance edge.  Sequence!

To go from an axel landing into a Lutz turning the same way, the skater has to change feet.  Sequence!

I thought about an axel in one direction combined with a Lutz in the other direction, which wouldn't have a step or change of edge, but there is a rule or guideline that says that any sequential jumps starting with an axel (or 2A/3A) was to be considered a sequence.  So, no combination there, either.

I'll see if I can find a link - they made a point of telling us this at the PSA Nationwide Conference last year.

I'll buy the axel lutz being a sequence, but i'm sure I read something so that you could step forward and do an axel as a combination, but I could quite well be wrong. It's hard enough understanding the rules and then they keep going to change them. And I only really pay full attention to synchro rules.

[FigureSpins]

You might be right - I saw something on the internet, but it wasn't from an "official" site, so I didn't open it.

Do you have a source or link for that rule?

[jumpingbeansmom]

Lutz-axel or axel-lutz -- doesn't matter, it's a sequence, either way, unless a rule was changed recently.

To go from the Lutz to the axel, the skater has to step forward onto an entrance edge.  Sequence!

To go from an axel landing into a Lutz turning the same way, the skater has to change feet.  Sequence!

I thought about an axel in one direction combined with a Lutz in the other direction, which wouldn't have a step or change of edge, but there is a rule or guideline that says that any sequential jumps starting with an axel (or 2A/3A) was to be considered a sequence.  So, no combination there, either.

I'll see if I can find a link - they made a point of telling us this at the PSA Nationwide Conference last year.

That makes sense, thanks

[techskater]

Yes, that would be considered a sequence.
(Although I think I read somewhere that they've changed it so that it would be a combination this year but solely so you could add an axel as a second jump, but don't quote me on that one. This unfortunately blurs my understanding of combinations and sequences as the whole taking a step concept was nice and clear to me).

No, they changed it two years ago so that you can step directly into an Axel from another jump and it will count as a sequence instead of having to do a toe tap.  It remains a sequence.

[Sierra]

I've seen skaters at my rink doing lutz, side toe, axel. When looking at it using the changing feet rule, it is a combo. Because you do the side toe directly out of the back edge (RBO, tap left foot, tap right foot, glide forward on left) then after the side toe you're already on the entrance edge for the axel.

But does the side toe disqualify the combo?

[techskater]

Tap toe to Axel makes it a sequence.  Step out of a Lutz directly into an Axel makes it a sequence (change of feet). 

Axel CCW to Lutz CW is a combo (no change of feet/hops/etc)

1/2 Loop is now called the same as a loop (as it should have been before just like a 1 foot Axel) and 1A+1Lo (1/2 loop)+2S takes up the three jump jump pass but does not get the sequence "penalty" HOWEVER they are very picky on the rotation of the 1/2 loop.  Brian Joubert had one called earlier this year as (I think) 3Lz+1 Lo <+3S

[fsk8r]

No, they changed it two years ago so that you can step directly into an Axel from another jump and it will count as a sequence instead of having to do a toe tap.  It remains a sequence.

Thanks for that. I knew they'd done something so you could step directly into an axel, but couldn't remember how it had ended up.
(and I don't really have to worry about it as I'm still pre-axel and waltz jumps aren't worth the paper they're written on).

I've yet to work out the purpose of a sequence if it gets you less marks than doing a combination. Seems like a loss of marks if you can do good enough jumps to get everything called in a combination.

[jumpingbeansmom]

Thanks for that. I knew they'd done something so you could step directly into an axel, but couldn't remember how it had ended up.
(and I don't really have to worry about it as I'm still pre-axel and waltz jumps aren't worth the paper they're written on).

I've yet to work out the purpose of a sequence if it gets you less marks than doing a combination. Seems like a loss of marks if you can do good enough jumps to get everything called in a combination.

Well, this probably won't happen again, but my dd was newish at double lutz, and so at regionals, her coach decided to change it to single lutz axel sequence...it was more points than single lutz and safer than trying a double at that time.  I assume it is sometimes easier to do a sequence.

[Doubletoe]

The jump sequence scoring rule is on page 199 of the USFSA Rulebook, which can be searched online:

Jump sequences are evaluated as one unit by adding the base
values of the two highest value jumps, multiplying the result
by 0.8 and after that applying the GOE with the numerical
value of the most difficult jump. The factored base value of
the jump sequence will be rounded to two decimal places.

Well, this probably won't happen again, but my dd was newish at double lutz, and so at regionals, her coach decided to change it to single lutz axel sequence, it was more points than single lutz and safer than trying a double at that time.  I assume it is sometimes easier to do a sequence.

Yes, if a skater is limited as to the number of loops and toeloops she is allowed to do, and/or the higher valued jumps she is able to do, the right sequence can give her more points than the other available alternatives, even though each jump in the sequence only gets 80% of its value.

BTW, there are no crossovers or turns allowed between jumps in a sequence (although a back double 3turn on the landing foot--with no stepdown onto the other foot--is allowed in a combination).  So the hypothetical sequence of axel-lutz would be counted as two separate jumps if the skater landed the axel on the RBO edge, then crossed the left foot over the right in order to take off on the lutz.  Also, doing a 3-turn before the salchow takeoff in a sequence would turn it into a separate jump element, which makes it very hard to put a salchow into a sequence now that a half loop-salchow is considered a combination.

Exact wording for these 2011 ISU rules:

JUMP COMBINATION

In a jump combination the landing foot of the first jump is the take off foot of
the second. The same applies to the third jump. If the jumps are connected
with a non-listed jump, the element is called a jump sequence; However halfloop
(or "Euler") (landing backwards) when used in combinations/sequences is
considered as a listed jump with the Value of a single loop. When executed
separately, half-loop stays as unlisted jump.

No change of foot or turn is allowed at any time between the two
jumps, which must directly follow one another (except for touching down the
non-tracing foot in toe jumps).

In case of a touch down with the free foot without weight transfer and up to 2
three turns or no turns between the jumps in a combination, the element
remains a jump combination (however Judges will reduce the GOE because of
error). In case of more than 2 three turns the call will be the jumps performed
prior to three turns + combo in Short Program and + sequence in Free Skating.

If an Axel type jump immediately follows any other jump (without any hops,
mazurkas, unlisted jumps), this will also be considered as a jump sequence.

JUMP SEQUENCE:
A jump sequence consists of any number of jumps that may be linked by nonlisted
jumps and/or hops immediately following each other while maintaining
the jump rhythm (knee); there can be no turns/steps (not even as an entry into
a jump) during the sequence; there can be no crossovers or stroking. (Turns
are three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers. Steps are toe
steps, chasses, mohawks, choctaws, curves with change of edge, cross-rolls,
running steps).

[fsk8r]

Thanks Doubletoe for the ISU rules. It clears everything up in my head. You're lucky the USFSA have everything so nicely organised. NISA isn't so good so we have to wade through the ISU rule book to find out everything and that's a lot of pages to read.

Well, this probably won't happen again, but my dd was newish at double lutz, and so at regionals, her coach decided to change it to single lutz axel sequence, it was more points than single lutz and safer than trying a double at that time.  I assume it is sometimes easier to do a sequence.

I can see in those circumstances it's worth doing the sequence as it's better to get some points than no points if the double doesn't go as planned.

[techskater]

One reason to do a sequence is that you want to get another "hard" jump in a program but can't fullfill it in a combo (like before the 1/2 loop counted as a listed jump, if you can do 1/2 Salchow or flip, it could free up a loop or toe loop to be used somewhere else). 

Clarification on the three turns Between jumps in a combo - it will result in negative GOE (or reduced if there was enough fullfillment for more than 0).

[Sierra]

One reason to do a sequence is that you want to get another "hard" jump in a program but can't fullfill it in a combo (like before the 1/2 loop counted as a listed jump, if you can do 1/2 Salchow or flip, it could free up a loop or toe loop to be used somewhere else). 

Is there a limit on the loops allowed in combination?

[Isk8NYC]

A skater can only use the same jump twice, once as a solo or in a jump sequence and a second time in a combination.

That's why the change in half-loops' status became an issue: a lot of skater were using the half-loop to create sequences such as axel-half-loop-loop.  Now, that the half-loop counts as a loop, that sequence becomes a combination, scored as "axel-loop-loop."  The second loop doesn't earn any points.

[kssk8fan]

A jump can only be repeated once and that repeated jump must be in combo.  A 1/2 loop is now called as a single loop.  Remember there is a difference between the revolutions on each jump.  A double loop and a single loop are considered two different jumps so technically you could still do one of each as long as they were in combination.  I would recommend against this,  however if the single or double loop is the only jump you can do in combo (for most people it's actually the toe loop or double toe loop) then whatever works for you.

[Sierra]

..But since USFSA allows 3 combos, one of which is a 3 jump combo, then that's 4 jumps that are the second or third jump in combo. Which would force the skater into having 2 toeloops in combo and 2 loops in combo with no solo loops/toeloops whatsoever. In the lower levels, skaters have no option of having single/double loops or double/triple loops.

So in my No-test program, which has no toeloops in it anywhere, my third, fourth & fifth loop won't count? 4 loops in combination, 1 solo loop. I'm sure my coach would notice if it were illegal.. but now I'm just confused. I know I've seen programs with more than 2 single loops in them.. last fall there was a Pre-pre with a loop-loop and axel-loop..

[techskater]

I highly recommend you read the announcement.  Each has its own particulars. 

As an adult, you are only allowed 2 each of any particular jump (single or double are separate) and 1/2 Lo and regular loop count the same now, people have to be conscious of that.  To answer your one question, yes both my single toe loops and both my single loops are in jump combos and I have none solo.

[kssk8fan]

Sierra,

USFS no-test doesn't seem to have any limitations repetitions, .

No Test:
SingleJumps(Axel not allowed)
Max 3 combos or sequences Combos limited to 2 jumps, but one 3 jump combo is permitted.
Number of jumps in jump sequence is not limited
No singles Axels,double jumps or triple jumps
(page 232 of the current USFS rule book)

There are no jump repetition limitations until pre-pre and that level, the only rule is limiting to two axels

[kssk8fan]

The reason for this rule change is to force skaters to expand their jump portfolio.  Same thing is happening with spins and I believe you can see that change more easily.  However, remember - these changes are more likely to be in the higher levels.   There are changes to the non-qual levels, my favorite being no double lutz and no double flip!!!  We have quite a few prelim's at our rink right now the change has been a great welcome to these skaters!   You really can't "skip" learning a jump anymore.  Of course, it's fine but it really makes competing difficult if you don't have the basic edge jumps!