I am confused

[falen]

I am reading a usfs comp entry form.  In fs 2 there is a forward inside or outside spiral.  A spiral is in basic 6.  And then it says that there will be a .2 deduction for element at higher level.  DD has always done her spirals on a curve leaning on an outside edge.  So that spiral would trigger a deduction?  I don't think dd could even do it on what she calls a flat.  Or maybe she could...she can surprise me, I'll find out today, she will probably look at me like I have 10 heads because she is always telling me good skating is on an edge!  So should she relearn the spiral?  Am I reading too much into it...am I reading it too much like a lawyer?  Could she have gotten a deduction in the past because it is leaning on an edge?  Gee I am right back to my old gripe...I wish I could see the judges comments!

[Clarice]

Okay, as a mom of a grown skater, I'm going to be really honest here, and I'm truly not trying to be mean.  You are making way too big a deal out of these things.  Your skater is only in the Basic Skills levels.  At this stage of the game, skaters should be doing competitions for fun and experience.  Period.  It doesn't matter where they place or why.  If there's going to be this much stress and analysis of every little thing now, you guys are never going to last in this sport to the point where it does matter.  And even then - it's only figure skating.  It's not going to stop war or feed the hungry.

Let her do her spiral the way she does it.  On the day of the competition, she will do the best job she is able to do "at that moment, on that day", and so will all the other skaters.  The judges will place them the way they place them, and you may or may not agree with the outcome.  It doesn't matter.  Congratulate your skater for the things she did well, buy her ice cream or something, and go home to continue practicing and learning.  Make memories of the fun you had traveling together to competitions, picking out dresses, watching her in shows.

My daughter started skating at age 5.  She's now 21, and stopped competing at the end of high school.  She passed all her Senior tests and has a double axel, but no triples.  She went to Regionals every year, but never got to the final rounds.  She's coaching now, and loving it.  What makes me very happy is that she's told me that she would be thrilled if a daughter of hers took up skating - so we must have done something right over the years.

Whether or not they get some tiny deduction on a spiral in a Basic 6 event is absolutely not important in the big picture of things. I hope you and your skater can find as much fun and enjoyment in skating as we did, and that your skater continues in the sport for years to come.

[Sierra]

If she's doing her spiral on an outside or inside edge, and she's in Basic 6, she's doing it wrong. She *must* be able to do a spiral on a flat before learning inside and outside spirals. The Pre-preliminary MITF test requires spirals on a flat halfway down the rink. In Preliminary is when they want outside/inside edges.

I think you're not making a big deal out of it at all. You should be concerned that she might be deducted. It would be crushing for a kid to learn that she did it wrong and lost the competition because of it. Of course, winning shouldn't matter very much, but skating cleanly should matter.

I disagree with letting kids do it their way. It's a highly technical sport, and they've gotta learn to do it their coach's way. I'm not sure exactly what level your daughter is in, but if she's competing Basic 6, then the spiral needs to be straight ahead on a flat. If she's competing FS2 or higher the spiral needs to be on a clear edge. If she is in Basic 6 I somehow doubt it's a true edge, she is probably not aligning her shoulders right which would pull her off to the outside. It is very common in beginning spirals & one foot glides, and it's something to be fixed. On the other hand if it's a beautifully controlled spiral on a wonderful outside edge... put her in a higher level.

[Sk8tmum]

I'm going to build on what Clarice said, apologies to the OP, it's a bit OTT. I'm off to my first LTS competion with my tiniest next weekend.  However, this is NOT my first LTS competition. Due to the huge age gap between my older and youngest child, I did my first LTS comp , years ago. Back then, I was completely confused by what went on. What was my kid supposed to wear or do? Why was s/he placed where s/he was?  What did a judge expect in a sit spin from a (well, we call it Canskate in Canada) L5 skater?  I asked lots of people who I trusted, and got much of the same info that Falen has gotten from the Boards here. Of course, I didn't have a board to ask .. I just found one of the few sensible skating moms around, and also asked my coach where I needed more info. It's easy to be confused and looking for answers when you're new to a sport, especially one as weird and wonderful as figure skating.

Now, looking back, I realize what a long journey it is from entry level to the higher levels.  We are still running into the same "issues" at a high competition level: why was one skater's skating skills ranked higher, what caused the spin to be called L1 instead of L2, what did they see in that 2LZ that got a GOE deduction?  It doesn't change as you move on, but, the perspective does for those of us who have survived the long haul.  Of the kids who started with mine, over 90% have quit the sport - often because they couldn't get perspective on what competing or testing meant, or, because they burned out when things went from "being easy" to "being tough" or just the mental and physical exhaustion from too much pressure; often it was the early stars who were the first to quit!  The ones who are still going are the ones who skate for the love or or the joy or the challenge of it - and, yes, that includes the ones who are going to Nationals as well as the ones who are still working on Low-Test after just as many years in the sport.

Similar to what Clarice was saying about her daughter - my older two are now pitching in and helping my littlest, because they want her to enjoy the sport.  And they're getting back down to her level of "sparkly dress" and "pretty curtsey" on the ice , and cheering that 3rd revolution on a 2-foot sit spin as loudly as I am!  

I guess I'm circling around what I'm trying to say.  Next weekend, when my tiny DD goes to her LTS comp, the "mom" I am now is very different from the "mom" I was back then. I know that the placements may make no sense; that my kid may run into holdbacks, or may end up placing well just because her flight is weaker than another flight; that we may end up last, in the middle or at the top, and nothing I can do will change it. I know we will see crying and cheering skaters (and mothers); that it will be hectic and confusing; and that at the end of it, my kid and I are going to look at the pictures, watch the video, and talk about the fun stuff.  We'll figure out what we want to work on, celebrate whatever we achieved.  Was I this calm and rational back the first few comps?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!  It just took time and experience.

So, Falen, we all understand where you are coming from; we've all been there; along with sharing our knowledge of skating, competing, etc, we're also sharing our knowledge of what it is like to be a skating "mum".  Hope you'll take it in the spirit it is offered: we all want you and your kid to enjoy the sport and stay in it long term-!

[drskater]

Point of clarification: In ISI FS 2:

The two foward spirals must be either an inside AND outside edge on the same skating foot OR an inside edge or outside edge on different skating feet.

" Two forward patterns must be performed in the arabesque position on two different edges (i.e., a right forward outside and right forward inside, or a right forward outside and left forward outside."
2010 ISI Handbook, p. 38.

[Isk8NYC]

The OP asked about USFSA Basic Skills though.. .I'm confused as to why she's skating ISI FS 1 and USFSA basic 6.  I would think the skater belonged in at least Basic 8...the coach should evaluate her level.  She should also provide guidance about the spirals - a B6 skater should not have an edge spiral in her program.

[falen]

sorry. She is skating fs1 usfs (she can't get a back spin...otherwise she would be fs2, even that scratch is minimal...but that 2 foot got really good so the next isi fs1 should be better), I was trying to figure out which spiral she has to do because the one she should know is basic 6 one (right?), not the fs 2 one right? b/c she is on fs1.   And there is no other addition to the spiraling technique between the 2 levels.  I am reading the whole document and applying legal logic, I guess it doesn't work!

If these technicalities weren't such a big deal, they wouldn't go out of thier way to say there will be a deduction!  So I would think it matters.  If placement did not matter at all they would do competitions like they do music competitions, everyone skates against the book and everyone who competes would get gold as long as they don't mess up royally (that's how those music comps went).

And like I said, she doesn't care about winning, but she is old enough to feel like she "got her ass kicked" if she's at least not in the middle.

Well she can do it on the flat.

[phoenix]

If placement did not matter at all they would do competitions like they do music competitions, everyone skates against the book and everyone who competes would get gold as long as they don't mess up royally (that's how those music comps went).

What people are saying is that in the long scheme of things, in the 10-15 year career of a skater, placement at a basic skills competition means nothing. Of course right now, in the immediate present, she wants to do well, and you want her to do well, and you want to make sure she's skating within the specifications.

But in the long run, yeah, it means nothing. I know that's hard to feel right now, & probably you won't feel that way at all for quite awhile. But after she has a few tests under her belt, and is skating preliminary+ in real competitions, you'll look back on this and shake your head.

[falen]

What people are saying is that in the long scheme of things, in the 10-15 year career of a skater, placement at a basic skills competition means nothing. Of course right now, in the immediate present, she wants to do well, and you want her to do well, and you want to make sure she's skating within the specifications.

But in the long run, yeah, it means nothing. I know that's hard to feel right now, & probably you won't feel that way at all for quite awhile. But after she has a few tests under her belt, and is skating preliminary+ in real competitions, you'll look back on this and shake your head.

I totally get that.  It's like nobody cares about your 1400 SAT when you're 40 (I know now it like 2000 SAT)!  But I know my dd, if she can't make heads or tails of her placements, she going to lose interest, and she'll go into fencing!

So is she or isn't she?  She can do on a flat (we checked at date night public), but if she feels too close to the board she will switch to her edge.

[retired]

Ask the coach.  It's what you pay them for.   Their job is to also keep their skaters interested and motivated in the sport.

[falen]

She is back next week, but emailed the form....that's why I am here!

[retired]

It can wait.  Fill out the form for the level (FS1 from the previous post), write the cheque, and mail it off.  Technique questions are between the skater and their coach. 

[Sk8tmum]

If these technicalities weren't such a big deal, they wouldn't go out of thier way to say there will be a deduction!  So I would think it matters.  If placement did not matter at all they would do competitions like they do music competitions, everyone skates against the book and everyone who competes would get gold as long as they don't mess up royally

Actually, that's one of the recommendations coming out of the Skate Canada LTAD project: that all Canskate (basic to you I believe) element comps are skated against the book, and against a standard, and not for rankings.  Helps with skill progression and gives you a measurable standard instead of just where the OBO system placed you in a particular flight on a particular day in front of particular judges. Also recommending ending program competitions IIRC ... but that's another debate.

[kssk8fan]

Let me see if I can help.  In USFSA Basic 6 - there is a required element of a spiral.  In USFSA F2 - a required element of a spiral which much be a forward inside or outside.  The announcement states that a .2 deduction must be taken for elements done at a higher level.  Okay, where I sit - with my experience - skaters in Basic 6 are lucky to have what we call a "spiral".  It would be quite wobbly (probably using inside and outside edges during the spiral).  Some skaters in Basic 6 probably aren't even able to control their edges properly.  That said, the judges are just looking for what resembles a spiral.  However, in FS2 the judges are looking for a spiral held on an inside or outside edge (not both and not wobbly) - a more controlled spiral.  I don't know of ANY judges that would deduct .2 on a Basic 6 skater if their spiral weren't on a continuous flat.  Seriously, their blades probably are able to maintain a continuous edge worth deducting!!!!  Anyway, I digress......

That's the technical difference between the levels and the element in question.  However, I would like to add a few comments to the OP.  I applaud your attention to detail.  Yes, I agree with the other posters that you should relax a little and just play mom and let the coaches take care of things.  You and your skater will last much longer in the sport if you can find a way to do this.  HOWEVER, and I will repeat, HOWEVER.... it's paying attention to the small details that can be quite beneficial.  If you don't mind reading a longer post, I'll continue with a personal story....

My daughter started skating at 5 and her coach was what we call a "junior coach".  I think junior coaches are great!  You certainly don't need to pay $45.00 for 20 minutes to teach a kid to do forward swizzles, a single loop, maybe not even an axel.   We are grateful for our first coach.  With that said, I don't have enough fingers to count how many times during a competition 5 minute warm up that I noticed the other skaters doing something my skater wasn't doing.  In an instant - my daughter was asked to change something in her program b/c the coach didn't read the announcement properly and choreographed the wrong elements.  Ironically, on those occasions, my daughter competed extremely well and it didn't throw her off at all.  Me - I was a basket case, angry, swearing, etc... (of course not in front of my skater and I don't, to this day, know if she even knows it was me that caught the mistakes.)


Therefore, I applaud your attention to the details.  You're footing the bill for your daughters experience.  Check and double check if you think something is wrong.  Some things you may question may sound silly but ask anyway.  With that said - do try to relax and don't get caught up in the "my daughter placed ______ and I'm _______".  It REALLY doesn't matter at all where your daughter places - especially in the level she is right now.  It took my daughter 3 years before she got a 1st place.  Many, many times she was last.  This last season - she went to regionals for the first time and actually made it to final round!  How did we celebrate - a sundae from Baskin Robbins and two days later she was back on the ice working towards next season.  It was great but really, in the grand scheme of things - not a big deal at all!  If she hadn't have made it to final round, we would have celebrated with a sundae from Baskin Robbins and two days later been back at the rink working towards next season too! 

I guess what I'm saying is keep an eye on the details but don't get caught up in placements, comparing your child to someone else, deductions, etc.....  Those are things you CANNOT control and no matter how hard you try - you'll never be able to figure them out. 

Good luck to your skater and Happy New Year!

[FigureSpins]

Good point, kssk8fan.  Since the coach is new to the area, she might not have much experience with competitions at this level.  That would explain her lack of knowledge about ISI and USFSA Basic Skills rules and requirements. 

When in doubt, consult the rulebook.  In this case, the Basic Skills Instructors Manual is the starting point.

Basic 6 / Forward arabesque/spiral on a straight line, R or L
While gliding forward, balance over the skating side with the free  leg lifting in an extended and turned out position.  The torso is lifted and stretched, the body then extends over the skating leg.  The final position will be held with the free foot lifted to the hip level or higher and spiral position held for a count of 4 (instructor will count).

Freeskate 2 / Forward Outside and Forward Inside Spirals - Clockwise and Counter Clockwise
All spirals RFO, LFO, RFI and LFI will be done after moving on a circle.  [Instructor should expect] to see one side stronger than the other.  Each spiral will be held for a distance equal to two times the skater's height.

As Sierra mentioned, the spirals for Pre-Preliminary should be done on flats, ie. both edges on the ice, spiral heads straight down the axis.  I add the left-foot / right-foot straight-line spiral pattern from PPM to my curriculum for FS1 and FS2 in order to teach the transitions for the FS2 edge spirals and prepare the skaters for the PPM test.

The FS2 requirements in the competition manual only ask for a single spiral on an edge.  If a FS1 skater uses a noticeable curve or edge, she could receive a penalty. The deduction is 0.2 for each element from a higher level, btw. 

To answer your question, the safest plan is for your coach to choreograph a straight-line spiral in a strong position, which would be higher-level than Basic 6, but lower-level than FS2.

[falen]

I thank you soooo much for the detailed responce!  It really helped me put my arms around all your advice.  I come from an industry where everything is details and results, so it's kind of hard to remove myself from that line of thought.  And now that I am in deeper, I know where all the rules and regulations are I just have to read and understand!!

Thank you I am so greatful for your help!

Well coach should be back soon and probably won't be away until summer.... or easter?!?! 

[falen]

I can't seem to find the instructor's manual online, maybe that is a good thing.  But dd can do that outside edge on a end rink curve and she will litterally do a full circle, so she's got that 2 times height.  If only she could do a backspin, I have a feeling that will take months!

[Sierra]

  If only she could do a backspin, I have a feeling that will take months!

Oh, it will. It will.

[kssk8fan]

Falen, if your daughter is skating USFSA I would highly suggest spending some time here :

http://www.usfsa.org/content.asp?menu=parents&id=387

I think you'll get a great understanding from a "new to the sport" perspective.  There's not "really" an instructors manual - I think that's probably one of the most frustrating things with skating, ..similar to not receiving an "instruction manual" when bring home baby #1!!!  You really have to fumble your way through until you get to the place where you can breathe and enjoy!  Boards like this one are great too.  There's also some great blogs written by various people that I think you would enjoy.  Just search around the internet.  If you don't like something you've read, don't read it again! 

Here's a great little PDF from USFSA about competitions for the new skater, or for anyone that needs a refresher for that matter!!!

http://www.usfsa.org/content/BS-preparation.pdf

[FigureSpins]

There's not "really" an instructors manual - I think that's probably one of the most frustrating things with skating

Sorry to correct you, but there REALLY IS an instructor's manual for the Basic Skills program, in fact there's a test standards DVD as well (which you can also purchase from the NBC Universal store), but they are not available to read/watch online.  The manual has the test standards, element descriptions and patterns for all of the Basic Skills categories and tests along with a glossary.  Any Basic Skills skating school or club can order them for their instructors when they send in their registrations. 

You make a good point: skaters and coaches should have a current copy of the league's rulebook/handbook on hand.
Since the OP is so focused and detail-oriented, that should be a good investment - she can probably fill the coach's knowledge gaps for her DD and other skaters.  Sounds like the coach is not knowledgeable about ISI or USFSA Basic Skills competitions, so someone's got to step up to the plate to figure out the rules.

This thread has links to the rulebooks (online or available for purchase) and the Basic Skills reference pdfs such as the Basic Skills curriculum and competition manual, as well as topics for parents: http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=11.0

[kssk8fan]

yes, there is an instructor's manual for test standards, basic skills elements, etc.....  What I thought the OP was talking about was an instructors manual as in a "How to" book. 

[isakswings]

And like I said, she doesn't care about winning, but she is old enough to feel like she "got her ass kicked" if she's at least not in the middle.

Well she can do it on the flat.

I would ask her coach. She what he/she says and go from there. As for feeling like she had her butt kicked, that is going to happen at some point any way. What matters is how everyone handles it. IMO, it is NOT a bad thing to come in last once in awhile. It is good to be a gracious winner AND loser. I'm not saying don't do everything you can to properly prepare her, but if she comes in last(or close) use it as a learning experience. I know some skaters who get upset when they place anywhere BUT 1st place. My daughter has come in 1st, last and somewhere inbetween. She doesn't enjoy coming in last and there have been tears at times(but not full on tantrums), but for the most part she is a gracious loser and winner. AND she comments on other kids who are not good sports. I've rambled,  but my point is talk to her coach, make sure she si doing it right and go from there.

Good luck to your daughter! Mine will skate in a few weeks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxrniZ5O1kA
edited to add: this is my dd's freeskate 1 program from 2 yrs ago. I cannot recall how she did her spiral, but she placed 1st. HTH.

[isakswings]

I can't seem to find the instructor's manual online, maybe that is a good thing.  But dd can do that outside edge on a end rink curve and she will litterally do a full circle, so she's got that 2 times height.  If only she could do a backspin, I have a feeling that will take months!

Freeskate 2 backspin is a begining back spin, it isn't until freeskate 3 that she would have to have a little bit more advanced backspin. Backspins are harder... it's taken my dd a long time to get a decent one. She's now struggling with her back sit spin. Back spins make me crazy LOL!! It will come.

[kssk8fan]

isakswings,

You're daughter is so cute!   

[isakswings]

isakswings,

You're daughter is so cute!   

Thanks! She's growing up sooo fast! At least it seems that way!