padding/internal structure in boots

[Loops]

Hi Everyone- I hope the new year is treating you all well.  I've been laying low for a while.

I would love the collective knowledge about the internal padding in skates and how long it lasts. Especially from those of you who are dealers and see LOTS of skates. My Jacksons are 'only' 6 years old, (I skate 2 hours a week tho), and are beat up on the inside.  The foam around the ankle/heel is still squidgy but things are slipping around in there now, despite new laces. The boots themselves are still solid- they're full-leather and have always been on the stiffer-than-I-wanted side of things.

Just curious about all stuff they put inside there....

[Query]

I'm not a dealer. But have you tried sticking good quality moleskin (not dollar store ---- - though for a quick trial it would do) in there to take up the extra space?

Alternately, if you make your own insoles, they could be sized to wrap around the heel, at the back and/or sides as needed.

Does your foot (or sock) touch the foam, or is it under leather?

[tstop4me]

Hi Everyone- I hope the new year is treating you all well.  I've been laying low for a while.

I would love the collective knowledge about the internal padding in skates and how long it lasts. Especially from those of you who are dealers and see LOTS of skates. My Jacksons are 'only' 6 years old, (I skate 2 hours a week tho), and are beat up on the inside.  The foam around the ankle/heel is still squidgy but things are slipping around in there now, despite new laces. The boots themselves are still solid- they're full-leather and have always been on the stiffer-than-I-wanted side of things.

Just curious about all stuff they put inside there....

What model Jacksons do you have?  I'm not a dealer either.  I have one piece of data for you.  I have a pair of Jackson Elite DJ 2952 leather boots.  I skated on them from late Oct 2014 to late June 2023, averaging out to ~8 hrs/wk year round (except idle for about 12 months during COVID). The boots, including the leather, the memory foam padding, and the microfiber linings are all fine.  I did have to replace the sponge foam linings on the tongues.  NB:  I don't do jumps.

I probably would have a couple of more years left on them.  The reason I replaced them is because I prefer leather and was concerned about availability of leather in the future. For their higher-end boots, Jackson had dropped leather for microfiber ~2016/2017 and then brought leather back in ~2020/2021.  So I figured I might as well get a new pair before they dropped them again.

[Query]

Do you believe leather is more durable than foam, over the long term?

I guess there are at least two types of durability, one for use (e.g., flex, impact), and one for time. If Loops is only doing 2 hours/week now, maybe degradation with time matters more?

I don't know what type of padding my 20+ year old Klingbeils have internally, between the leather layers. (Externally, and inside the boot they were all leather, though maybe it was hardened with some sort of adhesive.) Maybe it was all leather? But only in the past 2 or 3 years have I noticed a major loss of padding, though they have been losing stiffness for the past 10 or 12. I probably do about 5-10 hours / week now, but for a number of years did 10-20. But I'm not a high level skater, and most of what I used to do was Ice Dance - few hard impacts.

I'm not sure what forum(s) skate techs frequent, if any. But neither this one, nor the other one(s) we frequent has many of them. I wonder if there is another. Perhaps Skating magazine has had something?

Of course there is another type of degradation: rot & mildew, that occur if the skates aren't kept in a low humidity environment, and maybe another if they are stored in a very cold and/or very hot environment, like inside a car. But Loops is experienced enough I assume she takes good care of her skates

[tstop4me]

Do you believe leather is more durable than foam, over the long term?

You've got this scrambled.  You wouldn't be comparing leather to sponge foam, as they are used in different structural components.  The sponge foam that Loops is referring to is used as padding between the outer layer of the boot and the inner lining of the boot.  With respect to the Elite/Supreme models, the Jackson that I bought in late 2014 had an outer layer of leather, sponge foam padding, and an inner lining of synthetic microfiber.  In 2016/2017 they switched the outer layer from leather to a synthetic microfiber (different from the formulation in the lining).  In 2020/2021 they then switched the outer layer back to leather.  The new Synergy models from Jackson use a different synthetic material for the outer layer.  Whether they will continue the leather models in parallel is anyone's guess.  I decided to get a leather pair while it's still available.

I guess there are at least two types of durability, one for use (e.g., flex, impact), and one for time. If Loops is only doing 2 hours/week now, maybe degradation with time matters more?

As with any piece of gear, there is operational service life and storage shelf life.  Some materials do degrade with time in storage.  The shelf life of sponge foam varies substantially depending on formulation and processing.  I've seen sponge foam fail in two different modes  Some dry up and crumble into bits.  Others turn to tarry goop (particularly nasty and difficult to clean up).  As I mentioned above, the sponge foam in the Jacksons I bought in late 2014 is still good (just checked this morning).

[Loops]

Thanks for your insights ! These are full custom Jackson's, leather and done in 2018, with innner microfibre anti bacterial anti odor inner lining. I skate in nylons and silicone heel cups so there is no skin contact, but it is the equivqlent of barefoot skating I think. I can tell you that at least the anti-odor (and thus the anti bacterial?) properties of that inner lining have crossed the rainbow bridge. There are cosmetic holes in the lining from where the tongue contacts it at the sides.

The heels were always too wide, and Mike did what he could to make them better. Now I'm needing to wear 2 heel cups. The foam around the heels seems good, but has, I suppose, lost some of its "fluff".

I'm just wondering if this means time is nearing. I'd love to get another few years out of them- despite the fact that they are still too stiff, I do love these boots. But the new debut low cut is tempting, and Im wondering if I wouldnt benefit from a softer boot....

I was so disappointed when Jackson told me they couldn't rebuild boots the way their competitors (Harlick) do.....

[Query]

Avanta rebuilds boots too - including other brands. I thought Harlick did too. I don't know how fast or at what price. But talk to Avanta - Bill said if I emailed him photos of my Klingbeils, he would guess whether he could rebuild them.

Avanta had a public spat with a prominent skater, that got a lot of people mad at them.

[tstop4me]

Thanks for your insights ! These are full custom Jackson's, leather and done in 2018, with innner microfibre anti bacterial anti odor inner lining. I skate in nylons and silicone heel cups so there is no skin contact, but it is the equivqlent of barefoot skating I think. I can tell you that at least the anti-odor (and thus the anti bacterial?) properties of that inner lining have crossed the rainbow bridge. There are cosmetic holes in the lining from where the tongue contacts it at the sides.

The heels were always too wide, and Mike did what he could to make them better. Now I'm needing to wear 2 heel cups. The foam around the heels seems good, but has, I suppose, lost some of its "fluff".

I'm just wondering if this means time is nearing. I'd love to get another few years out of them- despite the fact that they are still too stiff, I do love these boots. But the new debut low cut is tempting, and Im wondering if I wouldnt benefit from a softer boot....

I was so disappointed when Jackson told me they couldn't rebuild boots the way their competitors (Harlick) do.....

*  Gee, that's shocking.  With a full custom, I would have thought that if the fit were substantially off, you would return it.  By substantially off, I mean something that reasonable modification such as stretching or punching out couldn't fix.  Proper heel lock is critical, and a poor fitting heel pocket is not something that can be readily remedied.  Why didn't you or your tech insist on returning it?  The poor fit could contribute to early breakdown of the heel pocket.

*  With a full custom, don't you get to specify the stiffness?  What stiffness did you get?  For current stock models, you have the following stiffness values:  Debut 2451 (50) and Debut Low Cut 2430 (45).  Note that the Debuts have synthetic uppers.  If you want leather uppers, you have a choice of Supreme 5300 (75), Supreme Pro 5320 (65), or Supreme Low Cut 5430 (80).  Any of those grab you?  If you decide to go with one of the Supremes, I can discuss the outsoles with you.

(cont'd below)

[tstop4me]

(cont'd from above)

*  What tongue do you currently have (see https://jacksonultima.com/pages/custom#Tongues for current options; there were previous options)?  The Supreme line comes stock with the 6000 tongue.  It has no sponge foam and is fabricated from pressed felt.  It's stiff and takes a while to break-in.  But once broken-in, it's a great tongue.  I have developed special break-in and lacing procedures to deal with it.  If your concern with stiffness is mainly how easy it is to do a deep forward ankle bend, you can vary that with lacing technique on the Supremes.


*  The linings in the Supreme series are different from the lining in the Debut.  In another forum, there have been several complaints with the lining in the Debut, particularly around the heel, developing holes prematurely.  That's not good.


*  Hard to predict remaining service life of sponge foam.  Some sponge foams degrade gradually, and you have early warning signs.  Other sponge foams degrade catastrophically, without warning: As a rough analogy, consider bubble wrap; a big difference in characteristics if the bubbles are full, deflate gradually, or are popped.


*  For the boots that I purchased in late 2014, I didn't have any holes in the lining, either near where the edges of the tongue rubs or elsewhere.  I was pleasantly surprised.  The linings in my recent pair (Supreme 5362, purchased late 2022, but used full time starting mid 2023) are similar to that in my old pair, except that the linings now come perforated.  No problems so far. 

*  I wear cotton or wool socks.  The sweat soaks through to the lining, which is damp when I take off the boots (true of the old and the new).

[Loops]

The fit was off, but not by much and my fitter and I thought his trick would work. I live in France and did skate stuff on trips stateside. By the time Jackson could have gotten  these fixed, I would have been back in France, so we decided the shipping/duty cost wasn't worth it. The silicone heel cups have worked fine and haven't costed much.

For stiffness, we guessed. We went with a 65 (like the premiers) since I have always been hard on my skates but only do dance now. These have a 4 hook front but dance backstay. The 65 (with the 5000 series tongue) has just not turned out to give me the range of motion I wanted. I chalk it up to learning, and if I can find someone within my travel zone who does Jackson customs, these are things I'd sort out on the next pair.

Interesting about the lining in the debuts. I'm glad to have heard that. I don't know if I'll take the plunge into new skates, just trying to suss out if these are signs that it's time.

The supreme low cut could be on the table. The dealer nearest me doesnt carry them, but. I am afraid they'd be too stiff, even though they're lower. I was in Risport dance (65) for about 5 years. They were OK but having grown up doing free I and in old school riedells, I found I wanted more support higher on the sides of my ankles. I LOVE the lower backstay though. The debut may well not be enough skate for me. But at 300€ it seems less of a risk than once again going too stiff at 500€. (And not getting to try the skates on since that shop is 8 hours away and only does mail order).

[tstop4me]

Loops:  OK. that clears things up.  Since you want more flexibility all around, and your current 65 stiffness is too high, you definitely want to stay away from the current 5000 series Supreme models.  You would need a custom to get a lower stiffness.


Since you don't know what stiffness you need, the Debut Low Cut could be worth a shot to help home in on the proper stiffness.  As long as you're OK that it might wear out faster than you want.  Follow-up question:  Did you go with full customs because of fit issues or feature issues (or both)?  That is, do you think you could skate OK with a stock Debut Low Cut?

[Loops]

It was 100 percent fit issues (but I sure did take advantage of the feature  options). In stock boots, I have to choose between fitting my skinny heels and my arthritis-ridden bunion.

The Risport dance fit great in the heel but not so great in the front (alleviated but not solved with lacing ideas from AgnessNitts blog), everything else was good in the front but way too wide in the heel (edea, jacksons).

You can't compare stiffness across brands, but the risport dance 65 was definitely not too stiff. They're my patch skates now (when I get the chance to do patch). The supremes being lower cut may very well be fine once I get the tongue broken in. I do remember trying on the of jackson finesse (45 stiffness) and being worried that I'd crease them in the store. The supremes dance of that era felt like concrete But that would have been the first pair of low-cut boots for me. So it's also just part of the never-ending learning curve.🤷

But this is why I 1)put off buying skates as long as humanly possible and 2) insist on putting my feet in the boots before I buy. I fear this French system of doing everything by mail order. So may people I know just live with what they get. My arthritis is so painful that I've used AgnesNitts cutting method to alleviate things. Works great, by the way.

[tstop4me]

The Risport dance fit great in the heel but not so great in the front (alleviated but not solved with lacing ideas from AgnessNitts blog), everything else was good in the front but way too wide in the heel (edea, jacksons).

OK.  That's clearer.  Then you need to be careful with the stock Debut Low Cut. Under the new Jackson scrambled combo width system, stock widths are R (A/B) and W (C/D).  They used to have narrower widths.  Check to see if they are still available, even for stock.  My tech tells me that Jackson has stock options that are not listed on their website, but are available on listings available through authorized distributors.  E.g., when I ordered my Supreme 5362, he asked me if I wanted suede or smooth leather.  I said they come only in suede.  He said only suede is posted on the Jackson website, but he could order smooth if I wanted it.  He said there are various options available only through authorized distributors.


Also note that if the main fit issue is needing a narrower heel relative to the ball, there are two ways you can go with Jackson short of going full custom.  Their stock boots come in split width with the heel width nominally  one size less than the ball width.  If you need an even narrower heel, they offer the Rapid Custom for some models at a lower cost and quicker turnaround than full custom.  I just checked the Jackson website, Rapid Custom is available for Debut Low Cut.

Alternatively, assuming a stock boot can be ordered with a narrow enough heel for you, and the toebox is too tight because of your bunion, you might be able to heat mold the toebox to take care of that.  Heat moldable Jacksons are great because of the thermoplastic interface layer that they use.  By spot heating the area around the bunion, you can spot punch out the area.  This can be done more extensively than with the usual cold spot punching.  And you don't have to worry about the punched out area shrinking back after a while.

But you do need an experienced tech to do this.  In my boots, the stock 8W (men's) fit pretty good except I wanted a slightly wider toebox.  I was borderline between needing a Rapid Custom.  But my tech was able to punch out the toebox on the stock, and they feel great.

Hope this helps.  And good luck.  Getting properly fitting skates can be (literally) a pain.

[AlbaNY]

Loops, I know what you mean about mail order.  It's the same in Germany and Romania.  It is such a crappy situation. 

For the Risports that you use doing figures have you tried to also stretch them?  I had amazing success stretching my old skates from AAAA width to be wide enough for my almost B width (thanks tailor's bunion) feet with cheap Amazon stretchers. 

[tstop4me]

Loops, I know what you mean about mail order.  It's the same in Germany and Romania.  It is such a crappy situation. 

I don't know anything about Romania, but I'm surprised to hear that about Germany.  I would have thought there would be a cultural backlash against such an unsatisfactory system.  But maybe figure skaters constitute too small a population.  Do you know whether hockey skaters also need to go mail order?

[Query]

Most figure skate makers provide remarkably poor ways online to figure out what skate size will (hopefully) fit you.

I think they should provide printable images of insole outlines (various sizes could fit inside each other, in one image, for each width class, and the images could include rulers along each axis to compensate for printer scaling errors - ideally with a script to help you scale them right. (At one point Riedell made a rug that showed skate insole sizes - but only for rental boots.)

I'm not sure what they should do about heel heights. Hard to figure out what you need.

Avanta sends people wet sock molds to make custom boots - at a price, and slowly.

I once thought there could be figure-skate making kits. But the instructions I've found for making any custom boots are very complicated, and require a lot of time & tools.

If only there were an easy way to use microwave heat moldable insoles to contour to your feet, mold a shrink-wrap style boot liner (such as is used for some XC ski boots), hot-mold dyed plastic around it for stiffness & appearance (lack of breathability would be a problem - leather is so much better), and glue or melt in lace hole+hook strips. But I don't have the fabrication or engineering skills to put something like that together. Maybe it isn't possible.

[Loops]

Loops, I know what you mean about mail order.  It's the same in Germany and Romania.  It is such a crappy situation. 

For the Risports that you use doing figures have you tried to also stretch them?  I had amazing success stretching my old skates from AAAA width to be wide enough for my almost B width (thanks tailor's bunion) feet with cheap Amazon stretchers. 

Well, at that point I did go around to cobblers. One gave it a good effort but it didn't work. I was too new to heat molding at the time to suggest he apply a heat gun to his set up.

Tbh those are so narrow over my forefeet (both, but obviously the malformed one is worse), that I'm not sure how much hope there would be. I can tolerate them for about an hour. During competitions, it was agonizing.

[Loops]

I don't know anything about Romania, but I'm surprised to hear that about Germany.  I would have thought there would be a cultural backlash against such an unsatisfactory system.  But maybe figure skaters constitute too small a population.  Do you know whether hockey skaters also need to go mail order?

Community too small. Here in my town hockey have to mailmorder too. The next closest rink thag has hockey is 2.5 hours away. Not sure if there's a hockey shop there.

Ice sports are not that popular in France
(Outside rhe alps). Even rinks are generally far between, and many are closing between the climate change and finances.