BJØRN & FJØRD Blades for Figure Skating

[tstop4me]

My point was, How many coaches do know how to do this?  And, of those who do, how many are willing to service skaters that they don't personally coach (that is, skaters of coaches who don't know how)? 

If the answer to the first question is very few, and the answer to the second question is practically none, then we don't have a viable solution. 

[supersharp]

In my experience, very few coaches understand how to select a blade based on the characteristics of the rocker or even understand about making sure the skater's tech can sharpen the recommended blade. Most of it seems to be based on price, marketing hype, or just wearing what your coach wears because you hope to skate like that coach. 

I hear skaters say things like "I have Pattern 99s and I love them".  But can they tell me what they love about them? Nope.

My dream is for there to be a functional way to mount blades on boots non-destructively with a fine-adjustment system built in (like snowboard bindings) so you can try different blades or experiment with blade placement. Then we could rent demo blades, just like renting demo skis at a resort, and see if we really love those Pattern 99s after all...but that would require a revolution in sole-making that I don't think the boot manufacturers are likely to want to participate in.

[tstop4me]

In my experience, very few coaches understand how to select a blade based on the characteristics of the rocker or even understand about making sure the skater's tech can sharpen the recommended blade. Most of it seems to be based on price, marketing hype, or just wearing what your coach wears because you hope to skate like that coach. 

I hear skaters say things like "I have Pattern 99s and I love them".  But can they tell me what they love about them? Nope.

The above is reality.

My dream is for there to be a functional way to mount blades on boots non-destructively with a fine-adjustment system built in (like snowboard bindings) so you can try different blades or experiment with blade placement. Then we could rent demo blades, just like renting demo skis at a resort, and see if we really love those Pattern 99s after all...but that would require a revolution in sole-making that I don't think the boot manufacturers are likely to want to participate in.

The above is wishful thinking.


I'm glad to see you carefully distinguish the two.   

[AlbaNY]

It would be amazing if skaters could test many blades.

I tried several, and I don't have the skill to really have tested them, but I did have some preferences.  (I like Pattern 99, Coronation Ace were the best, Phantoms were not my cup of tea, rentals of various types are useless...

[Query]

My dream is for there to be a functional way to mount blades on boots non-destructively with a fine-adjustment system built in (like snowboard bindings) so you can try different blades or experiment with blade placement. Then we could rent demo blades, just like renting demo skis at a resort, and see if we really love those Pattern 99s after all...but that would require a revolution in sole-making that I don't think the boot manufacturers are likely to want to participate in.

If you design and make your own blades and mounting systems, they can have all the parameters you want! Maybe some of the people on this forum and others would buy them from you, if the price was right.

[FigureSpins]

In my experience, very few coaches understand how to select a blade based on the characteristics of the rocker <snip>

I disagree with that - most coaches do understand these points and are consulted by their skating families and the fitter for direction. USFS has an actual course on boots and blades for coaches. Each manufacturer posts videos and blogs along with specs available on request. 

We also have to consider what the skater specializes in, or struggles with, in their skating.  Dancers and synchro skaters need blades with a shorter tail. Spins struggles can be reduced with a shorter rocker radius.  Jumps improve with a longer RR and tails.

There's a lot of moving parts and given the cost of equipment, few skaters have multiple pairs of skates. 

Perhaps the coaches near you don't do their homework, but I assure you, we do in my area.

[Kaitsu]

@FigureSpins

I have to say that I one of those whom has not done home work properly. Could you post us blade profile specs of the blades you mentioned. From example blades you keep most popular in your area.

Have you ever verified that blades are meeting their specifications?

Could you explain also benefits of the side honed blades, like JW Gold Seal? I do have difficulties to understand benefits of side honing.

Can you also explain me why Coronation Ace and Coronation Ace Lite seems to have very different profile?
My point is, how USFS trains people to understand that blades with same model name are not necessary same as 10 or 20 years ago?

[Query]

"Side honing" means different things to different people" Could these answer any of your questions regarding the supposed benefits?

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6523835B1/en
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Schematic-illustration-of-the-cross-sectional-shapes-of-a-standard-blade-STD-and-of_fig1_5243786

You might also look at
https://scarletskater.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/blade-profiles/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3gMYm18bdA

I think you will find that most blade manufacturers don't choose to give full specs, for many different reasons.

It would be nice if there were "design" or "utility" patents for specific blade shapes. But I'm not sure patent offices would accept such patents. In any event, the details might change with the nominal length of the blade.

[tstop4me]

Each manufacturer posts videos and blogs along with specs available on request. 

Have you actually requested specs and received satisfactory answers?  Around 10 yrs ago, when I retired and got re-interested in figure skating, I did contact major blade manufacturers at the time (Wilson, MK, Ultima, Paramount, Eclipse, SkateScience) for specs, including spin rocker profile, grade of steel, and hardness (as well as others).  Only Eclipse gave me satisfactory answers.  Two were openly hostile (treating me as if I were a spy trying to get hold of trade secrets).  Otherwise, I only got vague marketing hype, such as "We use only the finest quality carbon steel!" or "This blade is the king of spin!"

[Query]

See the thread I just posted on a CAD design for a particular figure skating blade that someone (not me!) put on a website:
https://skatingforums.com/index.php?board=25.0

[Query]

Does that thread I just posted answer your question?

Or were you hoping for manufacturer specifications, rather than someone's measurements that might have been based on one blade, and of just one blade length within that model?

It isn't obvious that it would benefit the blade manufacturer to openly provide such specifications to the public.

I could understand why a manufacturer might openly provide specifications for a part that they want manufactured by many competing companies. E.g., I am told that cars are so complicated that even major car makers subcontract to many companies to provide parts like seats and radios. Perhaps, though I'm not sure, they openly publish the specifications for the interface between the car and the seat or radio. But in the case of this blade, there is a single manufacturer. (Perhaps they buy the blanks from a steel mill - but that might be just one steel mill, and it might be beneficial to both companies to keep the details proprietary.)

Or have I got that wrong?

[tstop4me]

Does that thread I just posted answer your question?

Who are you addressing?  If it's me, the answer is , "No."

[Query]

tstop4me: I was mostly addressing Kaitsu's question in response to FigureSpin's post

Could you post us blade profile specs of the blades you mentioned. From example blades you keep most popular in your area.

FigureSpin did not mention specific blade models. Alba mentioned MK Phantom blades. My thread gave CAD drawings that for MK Phantom - though maybe measured, not from manufacturer specifications.

I wonder if HD Sports even knows the metallurgical properties (like hardness) of the blanks that I assume the blades are cut from - if the blanks are made by a separate mill. Maybe they try to maintain an average edge hardness - though that costs time and money - but it's uncertain that they would try to specify to the steel mill the precise hardness the of rest of the blade. You said you were mostly unable to obtain that info from manufacturers. I once tried to obtain proifles from MK, JW and Ultima. MK and JW did not respond. Ultima was unable to tell me (I think they didn't know, because the lady put me on hold while she tried to find out) whether the Matrix 1 Runner shapes had the same profiles as the corresponding non-Matrix models with the same name - which seemed a pretty basic customer question.

A few skate techs told me that they bought the profile guides that MK used to sell - I guess something cut to the same shape?? But even if it had the same rocker radii, they presumably did not give the segment lengths for each size blade. One skate tech told me he thought there were problems with those guides.

It would only make sense to publish specs if they could be covered by a design patent - i.e. if they could be proven to be novel and not obvious. Many people have claimed rocker profiles aren't (or was that self serving?) but I wonder if toepick size and shape are??

Broadbent briefly posted Goldquest blade shape parameters, which I think he said were based on an MK or JW blade - but he very quickly took that down, and I hadn't recorded it, nor could find it at archive.org.

[tstop4me]

Query:  Both my question and Kaitsu's question were triggered in response to this claim by FigureSpins:

Each manufacturer posts videos and blogs along with specs available on request. 

I don't see how your post of CAD renditions of a single blade by an unknown source and no details of methodology is pertinent to manufacturer's specs; in particular, as FigureSpins claims, specs available upon request from each manufacturer.

[Query]

Each manufacturer posts videos and blogs along with specs available on request. 

Huh? Where are these posted? Do you have any examples you could point to? Or is it only registered dealers who can see the information?

[tstop4me]

Huh? Where are these posted? Do you have any examples you could point to? Or is it only registered dealers who can see the information?

Mamma mia!

[FigureSpins]

Yes, I have received answers from vendors, although I ask most of my questions at in-person trade shows and competitions, not via email.  I do identify myself as a coach asking on behalf of my skating students, so maybe that makes them more attentive to their answers?

At one point, I asked the blade manufacturers the ROH and Radii for specific blade models that didn't have the info in their catalogs.  I was assembling a reference chart for myself, so even the introductory blade measurements were important.

Jackson responded to an email about Ultima blades having an issue with chroming, saying that it was cosmetic and they used a certain steel underneath the chrome coating. They had a dealer replace the blades for freee. 

MK blades responded to an inquiry form asking about rust appearing where carbon fiber stanchions connected to the runners. Again, they said the problem was cosmetic but surprisingly enough, they didn't blame the skater for their skate-drying habits. MK offered several solutions and said that if it looked structural, send them photos and they'd arrange for replacements.

SkateScience was actually the most responsive via email - I asked about rocker profile, roh and materials.  If I remember correctly, I asked about the lack of chrome reveal and they were up front about it being different-looking but the materials were better.

I don't think I emailed Riedell; they were in person, but they were very helpful.  In fact, one of their reps pulled out a competing blade and compared the features and materials in person.

Maybe it's just the coaching status that makes them take my questions seriously?  I'm pretty much a "cut the crap" person in non-skating situations, too.  (Think auto shops and software vendors, lol.)

As to the question about coaches' information, each of the major blade vendors share their informational videos with us but most of those videos are online via their websites or youtube.  The more tech-savvy distributors/resellers add the videos as well, although Kinzie's Closet had the most info.

There are video courses available to coaches on our eLearning platform.  I completed one (with a 100% score!) for my CEU requirements this year, but the PSA and Jackson shared content before Coach ICE.

Have you actually requested specs and received satisfactory answers?  <snip>

[tstop4me]

Yes, I have received answers from vendors, although I ask most of my questions at in-person trade shows and competitions, not via email.  I do identify myself as a coach asking on behalf of my skating students, so maybe that makes them more attentive to their answers? ...

Thanks for your response. Perhaps your standing as a coach and the circumstances under which you asked helped get responses.

Did you get actual details of the spin rocker profiles?  So far, the only published numbers I've seen are from Paramount ["Blade Profiles" https://www.paramountskates.com/videos], which measured various MK and Wilson blades with a 3-point radius gauge (they didn't say how many samples) and concluded there were only 3 different MK and Wilson spin rocker profiles:  12" radius, 17" radius, and 12"/27" compound radii. Paramount went on to pattern their blades after these 3 spin rocker profiles. As far as I can tell, various blogs and write-ups have copied the Paramount info without attribution; and readers are misled into thinking they are MK and Wilson specs.

The Wilson website characterizes their spin rocker profiles merely as "standard, subtle, or aggressive"; no numerical values of radii.  The MK website provides even less info.

So did MK and Wilson provide you with manufacturers' specs (numerical values of radii) for their spin rocker profiles?  If so, are they in agreement with Paramount's values?  [If I recall correctly, Bill's measurements weren't.]

[Query]

Many skate techs claim that over the decades, MK and JW blades have changed shapes a good deal. Is the same true for other blade manufacturers?

What I found on manufacturer websites said relatively little about spin rockers, and nothing at all about rocker segment lengths (and how they are scaled with nominal blade length), detailed toepick shapes or positions. And very little information on width - not overall width, let alone width variations, either near the bottom of the blade, or along the portions that blade holders grab. Nor about tempering and hardening zones. Sometimes they specify the steel alloy, but sometimes just the general alloy family. Did you get more?

I gave up on making my own blades because I don't understand metallurgy. I hoped to get fairly accurate profile and toepick measurements from web page photographs at flat side angles that had fairly high resolution. But photographers and advertisers try to complicate the file formats enough that I would do screen capture from a web browser, and normalize the sizes by manufacturer provided (main) rocker lengths. But cameras and scanners have distortions due to projections and non-uniformities, and photos are based on one sample blade. I planned to modify them anyway, so didn't care, but you might.

[tstop4me]

To:  Forum Admin.

I recommend that this thread be split.  I've reviewed all the posts.

Posts 1-9, 17, 20, and 21 are pertinent to the original thread.

The other posts should be spun off to another thread, with a title along the lines of:

"Obtaining Details on Blades and How to Choose a Blade".

[Kaitsu]

Could anyone who speaks English as their native language explain what Bjørn is trying to communicate with this text printed on their blade box? I don't understand it—and neither does AI.

[tstop4me]

Could anyone who speaks English as their native language explain what Bjørn is trying to communicate with this text printed on their blade box? I don't understand it—and neither does AI.

It makes no sense to me.  Probably a poor translation from the Finnish.  (And I'm someone with a background in solid-state physics and materials science and engineering).

[Bill_S]

It makes no sense to me either.

[supersharp]

Agreed. Makes no sense.

[Query]

I agree that a "material" does not have an inherent thickness - unless perhaps you are talking about certain monomolecular structures, or certain other structures with a very specific # of molecular layers.

But I interpret it as meaning that they buy or make or  modify plate steel - or blade blanks - that are unusually uniform in thickness. Or at least they are claiming that they are more uniform in thickness than at least some of their competitors.

Anyway, the quote is an ad. Ads often don't make sense in a technical sense. As long as they help sell the product, technical accuracy is secondary, and may even interfere with sales.

I would be curious: Do you (Kaitsu) find BJØRN & FJØRD blades to be more consistent in shape (including blade thickness at the base, where the blade meets the ice) from the factory than the leading brands, such as MK, JW, Jackson Ultima, Paramount, Eclipse? I would think such a measurement from a third party more useful than advertising claims from a manufacturer or distributor.

At this point, you have dealt with a number of BJØRN & FJØRD blades, right? Do you have overall opinions of them in general, and the consistency with with their shapes as delivered, as compared to the leading brands? Do you believe most figure skaters should consider them, and if they have the resources, try them out?