Changed skates, huge difference

[Leif]

Firstly I should point out that I wear hockey skates. I'm asking this question because I've had no luck on a hockey forum, and I know some of you are very knowledgeable. I had lessons over several years from a figure skating coach so I'm a decent skater.

I wore some hockey skates for over five years, and always had trouble with my left foot. The blade would sometimes skid e.g. when doing CW crossovers. My figure skating coach thought I was turning my toe out, so I worked on turning it in, with a lot of success. However, moves like powerpulls were always difficult and I never managed forwards inside edge three turns on my left foot. I always assumed I was a slow learner.

Recently I bought new skates, and the left foot issues have gone. I find edgework so much easier. Powerpulls are now easy, I can get nice deep edges, and do the whole rink length with ease. Crossrolls are much easier, I can get deeper edges, and hold them more easily. Every edgework drill that I try is significantly easier, and less tiring. Clearly I wasn't a slow learner.

My question is why can I skate so much better with the new skates?

The old ones were custom skates. That means they size each skate individually, then use heat and pressure to mould each skate to a plastic cast of the foot. So they should be a perfect fit. I did have a comment that I seemed to be skating on my heels, and I would sometimes fall backwards.

The new skates are off the shelf, but fit much more tightly round the heel providing more support. They are made from thermformable carbon fibre, hence can mould nicely. They have more forward pitch, and the blades are 1 cm shorter. I use a 1" hollow, and still have lots of grip.

I realise you won't know in any detail about hockey skates, but many principles are shared, and you might have seen something similar with figure skates. Is there something that can explain what I experienced? As far as I know the blade holders on the old skates are not misaligned, they were at one point replaced by a skate tech who knows his onions.

[Query]

I suspect you haven't given enough information.

It might be the blade wasn't aligned well - not centered right, or rotated from the long axis of your foot. I know hockey boots are more or less mass produced, but I think there can still be significant variation, pair to pair.

Or the left-right tilt of the bottom of your foot didn't match the tilt at the inside bottom of the boot. Something that could have been fixed by changing the shape of your insole.

If the heels were loose, it might have been harder to control the orientation of the boots.

If you were putting too much of your weight on your heels, the increased forward pitch would likely shift your weight forwards more, and possibly fix that issue.

Or the issue could be any number of other things, or a combination. It's hard to tell remotely.

1" hollow! Wow... I tried 1/2", and I had trouble skidding my edges. I'm back to 3/8". Such a high ROH might have made your skating more sensitive to other issues.

It'ss a shame that your old custom boots - which must have been fairly expensive - didn't work out well.

Be happy that you don't have the problem with your new boots.

[R45]

Without checking and comparing the skates it's hard to identify any abnormalities that could affect your skating.
I do want to react on the radius of hollow comments.
For experienced skaters there is no such thing as a wrong RoH, it's a personal preference.
Because new blades usually come with 13mm (½ ") it doesn't mean this should be the standard for ice skating.
Beginners and intermediate skaters are much better of on 25mm (1").
In general, most of the skaters are reluctant to make any big changes to their RoH. And if they do, they don't give it enough time to adjust to the new feeling and to utilize it fully.
Figure skaters who are in any form of competition or performance program don't like the feeling of skidding. But for recreational skaters and hockey skaters the skidding can become controlled sliding when their edge control improves.
Edge control and balance are the 2 most important competences needed for ice skating. They only become natural after a long time of practice.
A general rule used in Europe to find a suitable radius of hollow (in mm) for adult ice hockey players, is to divide the body weight (in kg) with π (3.14).
Example: if your weight would be 80kg = 80kg /3.14 = 25mm (1").
Hockey players in the US and Canada are generally skating on a smaller RoH than Europeans.
Though, there are by now enough examples in the NHL of players using a very high RoH. Paul Coffey, Mark Messier, Matt Cullen and Sergei Gonchar being some of the most famous ones.
25mm (1") and above may sound extreme, but these players are so good at skating that it is their preference to maximize their glide and speed at the expense of bite.
The age factor is also important for the choice of RoH. Getting more shallow becomes more forgiving for knee and other joints as there is less friction to overcome on the ice.
My advice is: go for the shallowest hollow you feel comfortable with. It might take a while to get used to it and to utilize it fully.
I am 67 yrs (60 years of ice skating) and my RoH is 45mm (1¾ "). Owning my own sharpening machine makes it easy to experiment with radii.

[NiceIce]

Query,

3/8"?  You must be light!  A shop gave me 3/8" once on a new pair of skates (it was supposed to be 7/16") and they wouldn't even glide.

Sometime I tell skaters, if they can't do a real T-stop or a hockey stop on their current hollow, then it's too deep :-p  A lot of them would have to be on a much bigger radius if they followed my hint -- but it actually has some truth to it.  Look at some of Medvedeva's one foot slow skidded twizzle moves and tell me you can do that on a deep hollow!  I know a fairly light skater that does doubles on 3/4" so shallower is fine if you are used to it -- she said it just takes stronger edging.


M

[Leif]

Thank you all. I realise no-one can say anything for sure due to lack of details, but suggestions are welcome. The boots are hand made in Quebec, to copies of my feet, so there is very good heel lock. I do wonder as Query suggested if my left foot is rotated slightly when in the boot, due to a moulding error i.e. the last was slightly rotated. There is a lot of foam in the sides of the heel (I have narrow ankles and very narrow lower leg bones) so that is more room for an offset to appear.

Regarding RoH, I started out with 5/8", and gradually worked down to 3/8" as I loved the bite. But it was becoming a subsitute for good edge control, and it was very hard work. Deeper edges do provide more grip but at the cost of energy lost. Figure skaters have good reason for a deep hollow of course. So I gradually started going shallow. My edge control is now very good, so 1" is fine, plus the current boots provide more grip for some reason, it feels as if I am skating on rails. Some say the one piece boot is more rigid, which increases power transfer and feedback.

I suspect the main problem with the old skates was the position of my centre of gravity with respect to the centre of curvature of the blades (there was one rocker or curve). And yet I had worked with two figure skating coaches who would surely pick up posture issues. Or perhaps hockey skating is too different. The new skates have more forward pitch which might force a better posture. And they are narrower in the upper ankle area, which perhaps reduces the likelihood of an offset.

[Query]

FWIIW, a number of years ago, NHL players were asked what ROH they used. The greatest number used 1/2" - but there was a lot of variety.

I like sharp blades partly because I got used to them. I'm about 140 lbs +/- 10, depending - pretty heavy for my 5'3.5" height. But NHL hockey players tend to be bigger, stronger guys, all muscle, so their they are generally heavier (plus add gear weight) because NHL hockey is a combat sport. Not surprising many of them need less sharp blades - though I'm told they typically get their edges sharpened (or runners exchanged) several times / game, because they are tough on their edges.

But it is likely that in Europe, where Olympic size rinks are more common than NHL size rinks, maximum speed matters more. Bandy uses even bigger rinks.

[Leif]

Yes there is considerable variation in RoH among NHL players.

I've been thinking more about this, and talking with some other people. I'm starting to think that the fundamental issue is lack of support for my feet, in particular the ankle area. These custom skates are essentially stock boots, sized in length and width to each foot, with a bit of moulding using heat and pressure, and additional foams in the ankle area. The stock shells are not shaped for flippers, like my feet. So I reckon they just don't provide the support that I need, even though the shells are very stiff carbon fibre. Looking at the top of the boots, they are very wide compared to my new boots.

I assume figure skaters have to take care to get skates that conform correctly to their feet. I've heard that some are thermoformable, though I don't know to what degree. And I've heard that some have leather boots and soak them to get them to mould nicely. I've also heard that some suffer foot pain because they want tight boots. The new skates I have are very thermoformable, hence they have a very nice foot hugging shape.

Oh, and in case anyone wonders, NHL players wear custom skates that really are custom made to the exact shape of their feet, not just stock skates with some modifications. Maybe top end figure skaters do likewise?

[Kaitsu]

Leif,
Most likely you are aware of hockey skate blades profiling. With profiling you can change your hockeys behavior quite a lot. I am pretty sure that blade profiles in your new and old skates are different. I have seen here how the new hockey skates blades are typically profiled before they are taken in use. They might change rocker radius and typically they grind straight area in to the blade. How long it is and how it is positioned is player specific and which role you have in team. I am sure this is nothing new to you, but to some other they might be.

Here are few instructional pages what popped up with very quick Googling

http://www.hattrickhockey.net/servicesrepairs/bladeprofiling.html
https://youtu.be/aKD3_TvxV_Y?si=5DRs-n8ABHkfqbRf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEHypfDsvrE

[Query]

A skate tech told me that plastic hockey skates heat mold much better to your feet than carbon fiber skates - but are heavier.

If your skates don't provide you ankle support, that's bad - I think the main purpose of skate boots is to prevent ankle sprains and breaks, though in the case of hockey, they are also body armor.

It may be possible to wrap something around your ankles, so they get more support. I haven't done this, but maybe other people here can help.

[Leif]

Kaitsu: The new have a dual profile, 10' on the middle and back, 9' on the front. The old have a single 10' radius. So there will be a slight difference, but I don't believe that explains the huge differences seen.

Query: The new skates are made from carbon fibre and thermoplastic, so they are incredibly mouldable. They were quite painful to put on and take off, so I spot heated a cuff. It was so soft I could fold it 180 degrees. In the end I rebaked each skate with a shim under the outside cuff, which created a bit of clearance for my foot. The designer originally competed at a national level in Canada in speed skating, and he made carbon fibre speed skates. He then took the technology to hockey skates. I'm sure it would work with figure skates too. I have attached a photo of old (right) and new (left) skates.

[tstop4me]

The designer originally competed at a national level in Canada in speed skating, and he made carbon fibre speed skates. He then took the technology to hockey skates. I'm sure it would work with figure skates too.

Oh, you have True hockey skate boots, and you're talking about Scott Van Horne, correct?  He later adapted the tech for Aura figure skate boots.

[Leif]

Oh, you have True hockey skate boots, and you're talking about Scott Van Horne, correct?  He later adapted the tech for Aura figure skate boots.

Yup, Scott Van Horne. I hadn't heard of Aura skates.

[Query]

One low level skate tech said Aura is out of business - but I can't confirm that. But he showed me one of their boots, and their website is auraskates.com, and they have a facebook page. The webpage lists an email address.

[tstop4me]

The tech I go to is an authorized Aura retailer.  According to him, the company was bought up by John Wilson (the blade manufacturer) and is being reorganized.  They originally sold custom boots only, but for now stock boots only. 

[Query]

Oh...