How good an idea to create a slight back spin rocker?

[Query]

I've always had trouble checking turns.

One of the problems is that when I rock forward for a forward 3 turn, I have trouble rolling and staying back again.

I wondered if I had gradually changed the rocker profiles, so the back was flatter than it should be. So I just checked my rocker profiles, and it is consistent with what it should be for the (old style) Matrix I Supremes - including the 8' main rocker.

Do you agree it would be easier to roll back if i changed the rocker radius in the tail to be 7.5' or 7'? After all, there are a lot of figure skating blades whose main rockers are 7'.

How good an idea would this be? What would be the adverse consequences?

Everyone knows that "rounding off" the back of figure skating blades is one of the worst things that badly trained skate techs sometimes do. So I'm really hesitant to do this.

(I do understand that I should instead be able to transfer more weight on the back of my blades. That's a nice theory. And I certainly will first try adding a little thickness to the back of my insoles, under my heels.)

[tstop4me]

I'd be interested in hearing from the coaches on this forum.  But when my coach goes over forward 3-turns with me, she tells me to rock forward (but not so forward that the drag pick touches the ice) just before the turn, and then to rock backwards just after the turn.  I rock backwards to somewhere in the rear half of the main rocker, but not to the very tail of the blade.

[AlbaNY]

Query, you might have fun trying out some hockey rentals to get this idea out of your system.  I found them a good tool for exploring Mohawks and 3 turns when I tried them for half an hour.  Just ask for a fresh sharpening or you'll have a bad time.  The brief try was excellent for knee bend also.

My coaches all say it in different ways, but checking from turns and jumps is done with the shoulders and takes a lot of control.  It can feel like a pain in the butt, but the rocker isn't really going to change that too much.  Working on figure 8s, waltz 8, and pre-bronze edges should really help too. 

Instead of messing with your curent blades it would be wiser to get some 7' radius blades to try, imo.  I like 8' but had a nice time with Coronation Aces for a hour before having that pair turned into inlines.  I didn't enjoy Phantoms as much, but that was more a boot problem, I think.  CA are highly recommended and not ridiculously priced, so... try them? 

[supersharp]

Query, where is your weight over the blade (fore/aft) as you set up the edge before the turn?  Every arc starts with a push onto an edge.  It should be the same push whether you are going to ride one long edge or do a shorter edge into a turn.  When gliding forward on a figure blade, your weight should be towards the back of the blade.  This keeps the front of the blade from squashing the flow and keeps you on the stable main rocker.  That's where you should start your push to go into a turn.  My coach used to make me push and ride that edge, and would then eventually tell me to set up and do the turn.  Otherwise I would do a weird twisted push in anticipation of turning, which set up a terrible turn. 

Set your turn using body rotation and then you should be able to lift your heel and drop it back down, allowing the turn to happen.  Don't think of it as rocking forward so much as just a quick release of the heel.  Like mincing onions on a cutting board with your palm over the front of the blade, with the back lifting and dropping. The body weight does not need to shift forward, you just need to pull the heel up so the body tension brings your free half around during the lift. It's a subtle movement where the knee and ankle work together.

What I see a lot is that skaters have their weight too far forward to begin with, so the "rock forward" moment over-commits them to the ball of the foot and and they can't rebalance over the foot.

[NiceIce]

Query,

How are your back edges?  Do you practice them every session?  Skaters need strong back edges, but often they are weak because they don't practice them.  Can you do all your back consecutive edges.  How about when doing full circles as in doing figures?  If you don't have strong back edges, it will be difficult to get down on them after a forward 3T.

But regardless, 3T's are checked far more with the upper body than the blade.  Can you send us a link to a video of you?  The previous post had a lot of nice advice.

Changing the rocker would not be something I personally would try.  You could try a more responsive blade like a Coronation Ace or the Legacy with the 7' rocker just to try something different.

M

[Query]

Alba: I have hockey skates too. I don't love them, and occasionally fall backwards. Of course they have much smaller rocker in front and back than 7'. I also have some extremely old MK Dance blades that had 7' rockers - but so much metal is gone that the toe picks are all messed up - trimming them changes the forward/back toe pick positions.

Others: The coaches I am currently taking adult group lessons from (one room schoolhouse style - but classes are small so they take turns teaching each student) are trying to get me to abandon the old Russian style ice dance style I learned, which emphasized:

1. Lean and weight forwards while skating forwards, back while skating back. Was never good for 3 turns, or other 1 foot turns. New coaches say to do the opposite.

2. Not touching toe pick. But current coaches say it may help me lean back after forward turns to touch the toe pick, then push back. (I don't know if they only teach that to people who have trouble checking turns.)

3. Counter-rotate upper and lower bodies. Current coaches say this is very bad - that I should turn from the waist, not below - especially when not doing ice dance - but I was always told counter-rotation is mostly not typical of American Ice Dancers. It is probably one of several reasons I never managed to keep an ice dance partner.

4. Very low body position (knees bent to almost sitting position while stroking). I'm simply not strong enough to do this now - which means more of my body weight is forwards than it used to be.

My current coaches say I should start forward 3 turns in T position (free foot instep touching skating foot heel), then push it back during turn to absorb angular momentum. Also, I am using head wrong. And since they are mostly talking freestyle, I can use my arms to create and absorb angular momentum, as long as they look well controlled (not wildly swinging). And they are urging me to bend my knees before the turn, rise up during the turn, and rebend at the end. I think I learned that before, but somehow forgot.

These changes are helping somewhat. Though I'm still skidding a bit, and my exit arc has a somewhat smaller radius of curvature than my entry arc. I should probably give them more of a chance to work before changing my blades. Especially since they say I should only roll back to mid-blade, not the tail.

I did add a little height to the back of my insoles. Makes it marginally easier to put my weight on my heels.

[Query]

BTW, The new coaches are also pushing me to use Schafer [sp?] pushes on back cross rolls, and to grind (slightly noisy sideways skid) a bit on both forward and back cross rolls. Prior coaches had demonstrated the grind, but I never figured out how to do it.

And the new coaches are pushing me to use real crossovers instead of old style ice dance progressives.

I'm surprised that these group lessons can be so helpful. But these coaches are pretty good. And it helps that the classes are small enough for some individual attention. It would be better to take private lessons - but that is expensive, and it is obvious I will never be very good. And with my body as weak as it currently is post-surgery, it would mostly be a waste, since I will have to change technique somewhat once again if and when I get stronger.

NiceIce: I can use forward and back inside and outside edges, but what are "consecutive" edges?

[NiceIce]

Query,

This used to be in the USFS pre-preliminary test - maybe it still is.  This is an exercise where you skate consecutive inside or outside, backward or forwards, edges down a line.  So starting at the boards and progressing down the blue line e.g. one would skate half circle backward outside edges, alternating feet all the way to the other side of the rink.  If those are fine you can work on the full circle figure 8 patterns trying to gain speed and smoothness.


M

[Query]

Thanks. I will try what the new coaches are saying for a while before considering posting a video.

[LunarSkater]

Query,

1)When you learned this forward lean/back lean, did those coaches ever mention how and where the weight is supposed to be transferred to the blade? This sounds to me more like a posture thing than a weight-on-the blade focus. Because, in general, weight is supposed middle-back of the blade when moving forward and middle-front when going backwards.

2) Something that might help with the check/counter-check in your turns. My dance coach has me think about it as coming from the rib cage, not the shoulders. Because we can rotate our shoulders but still not have the check transferred through the body. The shoulders assist, but that's not where it originates. (And that bend, rise, rebend the coaches are asking for is the correct technique. The bend keeps you on the correct part of the blade, the rise transfers it forward for the turn, and the rebend is supposed to bring the weight back to the correct part of the blade.)

3) Those coaches are probably asking for crossovers because progressives are not in the LTS curriculum. They need to see they skill they are supposed to be evaluating you on.

[Query]

3) Those coaches are probably asking for crossovers because progressives are not in the LTS curriculum. They need to see they skill they are supposed to be evaluating you on.

These are mixed level "Adult" classes, not official ISI or LTSUSA classes. They don't follow any curriculum. The coaches try to teach what each student wants to learn, though they make suggestions. At least one of the coaches is gold test ice dance, so if I asked for that, I could possibly get it - though there isn't enough time available per student to learn her partnering style, or anything else sophisticated. I'll take what I can get for now.

I never did turns or spins especially well. It makes sense to try the new coaches' styles, even though I've had problems before with having used too many coaches with somewhat different styles.

But at this point I am just trying to get back into skating, after a medically enforced period of inactivity, that leaves me unable to use the strongly bent knee style I had previously learned for reasons of strength, and that also leaves me flexible than before. I'm honestly uncertain I will ever as strong or flexible again - I'm almost 67, and my strength and flexibility, always limited, are coming back extremely slowly. I was losing ground on both even before the medical issues.

It's hard to find an ice dance partner even if though I'm male if I'm not good enough to seriously compete - and I'm not. Add the atypical style I learned, and finding a partner is probably a lost cause. And I think solo ice dance makes as much sense as solo arm wrestling.

[NiceIce]

Hi Query,

I hope you can get back on the ice often and have fun while you're there!

It's not so much a style thing, progressives are progressives and crossovers are crossovers.  If the coaches are teaching crossovers, then either they are emphasizing them for the efficiency in gaining speed for freeskating, or else they never did dance and/or learned progressives.

If you know progressives and want to do dance, that is a positive for finding a partner!

There's always figures you know :-)  They are kind of zen-like and a completely different and cool experience on the ice IMHO.


M