What is the factory-standard RoH for new skates ?

[R45]

Can somebody tell me what is in general the radius of hollow that comes with new skates ?
My guess it's 1/2" (13mm) for hockey skates and 5/8" (16mm) for figure skates ?

[supersharp]

Generally, a factory sharpening on figure skates will be off-level with an inconsistent ROH somewhere between 3/8" and 3/4", although some come flat.  Some manufacturers advertise their blades as having a particular ROH, which is inaccurate and pointless. The skater should have their skate tech provide the ROH they prefer when they get the initial sharpening. 

I have seen a lot of skaters show up to class in new hockey skates that are flat, although some seem to come with some kind of ROH.  I don't sharpen hockey skates, so I have less experience with them.

[Loops]

I've also seen new skaters with new skates that are completely flat, or functionally so.  Isn't it standard practice to give blades a sharpening before first use?

In any case, my tech taught me not to trust a factory sharpening.....

[Query]

Kaitsu once said in these forums that most (upper level) blades now come unsharpened from the factory, so the skate tech can give you what you want without wasting metal changing the ROH. I checked with 2 or 3 blade companies (I don't remember which), and they agreed.

BUT, I think some very cheap lower end blades do come sharpened.


If what you are really asking is what ROH you should choose:


7/16" is probably most common ROH for figure skates, 1/2" for hockey skates.

But there are specific reasons to choose smaller ROH, and to keep your blades sharper in general, like low skater weight, narrow thinline dance blades, harder (lower temperature) ice, or rough (poorly maintained) ice. If you tend to slip sideways, smaller ROH might help - though in many cases that just means your edges weren't sharpened well, have gotten bent over, or you don't sharpen often enough.

And there are specific reasons to choose larger ROH, like high skater weight, stronger, aggressive skaters who are strong enough to push harder, softer (higher temperature) but still smooth ice, and it lets you glide faster and longer. Larger ROH blades also tend to wear out their edges less fast, so your blades may last you a little longer.

But like a lot of things in sports equipment, it is also a matter of individual taste, and there is no such thing as a consensus view. But a good coach who sees how you skate might be able to advise you better.

[R45]

Thanks for the reply's !
So, I may conclude that the higher-end figure blades comes with a flat blade.
I'm skating in Europe and Singapore.
I've skated many years on figure skates as a child and young adult, later I changed to hockey blades and did freestyle.
I bought many skates and blades online and they all came pre-sharpened. This means they come with some RoH but not as sharp as I sharpen them with my own machine.
My question was if there is a certain standard for RoH in newly delivered blades, apparently there isn't.
I'm presently in Singapore and skaters here are buying skates online as the last skate shop has closed some years ago.
Most of the beginners are struggling because, to my opinion, the RoH in these blades is too small to start with.
Once the skater reaches a certain skill level, the RoH can be changed more appropriate, based on the end goal : figure skating, hockey, freestyle, bandy ...
As Query says : " it is also a matter of individual taste, and there is no such thing as a consensus view".
For myself : I'm 65 now and my knees are kind of ruined many years ago already. Cannot jump anymore but can still glide. Using my own skate sharpening machine, I experimented a lot with all kinds of RoH's on all kinds of blades.
For my own situation I settled for a RoH of 45mm (1 ¾") on a K2 blade which is longer than a standard hockey blade. It feels very gentle on my knees, even on rough ice.

[Query]

By the way, I'm not an expert.

If you use and experiment with your own sharpening machine, you are more knowledgeable than most of the people here. Only a few here have done that, and most primarily do other things. What type of machine do you use, and do you like it? Do you sharpen for other people, and are you a professional skate tech?

This is mostly a set of figure skating forums. Maybe it interests some other people, because we have had a number of discussions of skate sharpening, and as far as I know there is no forum specifically catering to professional skate techs, or to amateurs who do it for themselves, but the discussions here are mostly specific to the needs of figure skaters.

45 mm is by my standards an incredibly long ROH. More like what people here sometimes use for old style school figures, because they need very long glides even at low speeds. What type of skating do you do? E.g., are you a hockey goalie, who does a lot of sideways skidded glides? Or do you just skate casually for fun, and don't try to do any tricks?

I never heard of bandy before. Can you find a video of it?

I think the reason the blades you order online come pre-sharpened is that most retailers, even mail order retailers, sharpen them before sending them to you, on the assumption that skaters will want to use them immediately. It doesn't mean they came sharpened from the factory. If you ask an online retailer to leave them unmodified from the factory, you may get something different.

Also, maybe the unsharpened blades pattern specifically applies to figure skating blades??

[supersharp]

Most vendors only sharpen the skates if you request it, and often they will not take them back (for example, if the size is wrong) if they have been sharpened. 

Loops is spot on in not trusting a factory sharpening.  It is very rare to find a factory sharpening with level edges, and often they leave the non-skateable zone (NSZ) far longer than is beneficial.  New skates should be assessed and sharpened by a skate tech...I rejected two pairs of boots in the last week.  The skaters had no idea there were defects, but they would have either quit in frustration or started hating their new skates. 

[Christy]

Interestingly a lot of blade manufacturers do state a "preferred" ROH, like Matrix Elite I believe says 7/16", however I'd never skate on a factory sharpening. I've also noticed that it often takes one or two proper sharpenings before the blades hold the sharpening for the usual length of time, so with my Matrix the first and second sharpening will last around 20-25 hours, then subsequent sharpenings last around 40-50 hours.

[Query]

Loops and Supersharp both have more experience at this than I do. And my experience is out of date - I haven't bought new blades or skates in a long time.

But, when I said there are no standards, obviously there are a few criteria that are shared by most conscientious skate techs who sharpen skates or who fit boots, within each skating discipline. But when you get down to details, there are a number of disagreements, as well as a number of types of customization that some of the better skate techs do.

And to an extent we may all be looking for different things.

Can anyone here explain why Christy would notice an initial period during which her blades don't stay as sharp, which I assume means she notices sideways skid? Would that reflect something in the way the blades were made, or the way in which she or her skate tech sharpens them?

[supersharp]

It may be that even though the first few sharpenings get all the way to the edges, there is variation along the edges that we can't quite detect visually, so after several sharpenings we have done enough removal that the full edge is sharpened.  Either that, or for blades with a chrome relief grinding, we are getting past the most egregious section of the grind-off damage.

[Query]

Sounds plausible.

I was wondering about something more esoteric - e.g., that the edge hardening of the outermost layer was too brittle, and was breaking off, or that she didn't like the initial very sharp curvature transition point (sweet spot, if you call it that), or that the sharp transition point was wearing down.

Back in the old days when Ultima sharpened their Matrix 1 (an older generation) blades at the factory, they were extremely sharp throughout the full length of the blade, including the toe pick and NSZ - much sharper than MK or JW, or what any commercial pro shop ever gave me. Possibly a foil edge. That in turn meant - if the blades weren't handled well, e.g., if you walked on them off-ice - that the edges could easily be broken off or bent over, and would therefore be less sharp. Though I personally loved their factory edges, and I babied them. But if Ultima isn't sharpening at the factory anymore, that issue doesn't apply.

[R45]

If you use and experiment with your own sharpening machine, you are more knowledgeable than most of the people here. Only a few here have done that, and most primarily do other things. What type of machine do you use, and do you like it? Do you sharpen for other people, and are you a professional skate tech?

I have 2 machines, a Wissota 911 in Europe since 2007 and a SSM-Pro 2 in Singapore since this year. The SSM is the best of the two, I can have the same result with the Wissota but it takes more time.
On the Wissota I've made an extension for the diamond dresser arm to make RoH above 35mm, with the SSM I can make RoH up to 47mm.
I do skate sharpening as a hobby and occasionally sharpen for other people as well.

45 mm is by my standards an incredibly long ROH. More like what people here sometimes use for old style school figures, because they need very long glides even at low speeds. What type of skating do you do? E.g., are you a hockey goalie, who does a lot of sideways skidded glides? Or do you just skate casually for fun, and don't try to do any tricks?

I do my own style of ice dancing which came from the hockey blades freestyle dancing I did before.
Though I'm a bit restricted now because of aging, my skating skills still amazes the younger skaters.
The high RoH makes me float on the ice and a small tilt of the blade, inside or outside, gives me the necessary grip to perform smooth turns on the sharp edges without skidding.

[R45]

I never heard of bandy before. Can you find a video of it?

Bandy is one of the most popular winter sports especially in Scandinavia and Russia . After hockey, bandy is having huge number of participants from all over the world. As the sport is played a lot like ice hockey, it is mostly confused with it and generally considered as a form of hockey as well.
Bandy is played in two halves of 45 minutes each. There are eleven players in each team and the field is more or less the same as a soccer field. This sport is played with bowed sticks and a ball.
The boot style for bandy skates is lower than the ice hockey version and often doesn't cover the ankles. The bandy skate is designed with the intention of preventing them from causing injury to an opponent due to its long, and relatively sharp angled blades. The blade is generally an inch longer than the hockey skates, allowing for higher speeds on the large bandy field. The Russian bandy skates have an even longer blade and a very low cut shoe.
Bandy blades are sharpened differently than those on ice hockey skates with the bottom part of the bandy blade being flatter and generally excluding a hollow. As a result, and by comparison, sharp cornering and "tight turns" which are maneuvers that can be achieved using the design of an ice hockey skate are not achievable on bandy skates. While the design of the modern ice hockey skate allows for sharper and faster maneuverability, modern bandy skates allow for more distance to be covered at a higher speed.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIl9B_L9y6I

[Query]

Wow - 100 x 55 m rinks! That would be a lot of fun to skate on. In the U.S., we think of Olympic size (60 x 30 m) rinks as large - most of our public rinks are NHL size (60 x 26 m).

[Kaitsu]

I have been following what other people will reply to this thread. Now when I did face excellent example case, I decided to jump in to this conversation. Attached picture has been taken from the skates which were purchased with sharpening. Some girl has skated several months with these skates. Owner did bring them to me just for checking, if they are already so dull that they should be sharpened. Another foot skate had 7/16" ROH.

I believe this skate what we can see on pictures does have factory sharpening and skate shop has forgot to sharpen both skates. That is only explanation what could explain such a shocking "sharpening". This is a bit extreme case, but I can say that anything between flat, Paramount skates flame cut surface and super deep hollows are possible to see. On top of that there are unevenness and other problems what are already mentioned in earlier posts.

[supersharp]

Great photo, Kaitsu. The thought of skating on that is horrifying, for one minute let alone a couple of months! 

I have seen factory sharpenings that are close to level occasionally but never on both skates.  New boots and blades really should be checked by a skate tech, because the skater will have a better experience with the new skates.

It's hard to understand why families think they are saving money by skating on a factory sharpening when they are actually wasting coaching and ice time costs while the skater struggles with the equipment.  Sharpening is usually much less expensive than either of these.

[R45]

I don't know about the US and Canada but in general, a good skate tech can be hard to find.
Skating for 60 years on 5 continents has learned me that many skate techs have very little knowledge about sharpening.
Sadly, the good ones are a minority.
It also doesn't help that so many "good" skaters have inadequate or no knowledge at all about the RoH.
Since many years, I approach good skaters (worldwide) and ask them : "on which RoH are you skating"?
Most of them give these kind of answers:
•   I don't know but I'm happy with the job of the skate tech
•   I don't know but my coach knows
•   I think it is ....
•   I really have no idea
•   What is RoH ?
The higher skilled skaters usually know about the RoH.

[Loops]

I don't know about the US and Canada but in general, a good skate tech can be hard to find.
Skating for 60 years on 5 continents has learned me that many skate techs have very little knowledge about sharpening.
Sadly, the good ones are a minority.
It also doesn't help that so many "good" skaters have inadequate or no knowledge at all about the RoH.
Since many years, I approach good skaters (worldwide) and ask them : "on which RoH are you skating"?
Most of them give these kind of answers:
•   I don't know but I'm happy with the job of the skate tech
•   I don't know but my coach knows
•   I think it is ....
•   I really have no idea
•   What is RoH ?
The higher skilled skaters usually know about the RoH.

This is 100% true for my club here in France.  I'm the only skater who knows what their RoH is.  We sharpen in house and rely on parents who are willing to learn to sharpen and volunteer their time.  We're lucky right now and have someone who does a good job.  This has not always been true. I'm trying to get him to train me, but I don't have a very steady hand, so I'm nervous.  Fortunately there are others who are interested, too.  I promise that many of our skaters who get new skates are skating on the factory sharpening.  But since its easy to get them sharpened (and tbh dirt cheap at €3 a sharpening or €12 unlimited/season), most people are sharpening fairly frequently.

I can also wax poetically or not so much, on buying boots and mounting blades.  Good or even adequate fitters are even more scarce than sharpeners.  Y'alls on the North American continent are lucky!

[R45]

These parents, are they doing hand sharpening or machine sharpening ?
Very often I go skating in France, mostly in Lille en sometimes in Dunkerque.

[supersharp]

We sharpen in house and rely on parents who are willing to learn to sharpen and volunteer their time.  We're lucky right now and have someone who does a good job.  This has not always been true. I'm trying to get him to train me, but I don't have a very steady hand, so I'm nervous.  Fortunately there are others who are interested, too.  I promise that many of our skaters who get new skates are skating on the factory sharpening.  But since its easy to get them sharpened (and tbh dirt cheap at €3 a sharpening or €12 unlimited/season), most people are sharpening fairly frequently.

Does your club own and maintain the equipment?  I can't imagine charging €3 a sharpening or €12 unlimited/season without having to donate a lot of money for consumables, not to mention donating all the time for sharpening.  If the equipment was provided (along with grinding wheels and whatever replacement parts were needed), it would help. 

[Loops]

My club has a small benchtop blademaster.  It's akin to the SPB850 if it's not that model (it's oooooold). The club maintains it, and yes, all the time is donated.

R45, I don't know how other clubs manage sharpening.  It might be worth making a call to the president next time you're in the vicinity and see if they can advise you.

[Query]

I'm trying to get him to train me, but I don't have a very steady hand, so I'm nervous.

Being nervous can't help the unsteady hand...

I wonder if you could find a way to brace yourself while holding the boot - like people brace cameras against their body, to steady them.

It's great you found someone who might teach you to use a powered sharpening machine.

And I doubt you will do worse than the blade in Kaitsu's picture (About the picture: wow! super small ROH, way off center, and ragged. It's like someone took a checklist of all the things you can do wrong while sharpening, and tried hard to do them all.) If all else fails, I know you have already used a Pro-Filer...

[Isk8NYC]

The manufacturers publish/provide their factory sharpening standards, but they're an approximation.

That being said, I just had my skates sharpened to 3/8" by a different sharpener than usual.  He told me that the ROH on the blades (before sharpening) was 7/16."  This explains why my blades constantly felt dull - my usual sharpener must have forgotten my preferred ROH. 

Of course, now I can't stop because the blades are "too sharp."  Grrr