Skate tongue? Leather options? Let's discuss boots while I ponder order options

[supersharp]

Attached is a quick and imperfect scan of the article.  There was a lot of glare on the shiny paper, so I couldn't put it on a flat surface...but the content is readable.

[AlbaNY]

Thank you Supersharp!   

[AlbaNY]

I have a new dilemma that I'm researching while I wait for Monday to ask Coach Cheerful and talk to the skate tech again when he calls about pricing and the time line... 
I called the "local" guy about ordering the new blades, and we had a bunch of back and forth about the length.  He is far out of my way to get to, so I can't really just show him what my blade situation is, but I have a lesson tomorrow and can discuss it in person with Coach Cheerful. 

My understanding is that the mounting plates of blades should be at most flush with the sole of the skate and can be up to a quarter inch shorter.  Currently my 9 3/4 blades are end to end. 
The new boots are going to be slightly shorter, I expect, because my longer foot measured Harlick 6 3/4 standing.  The current boots don't feel too long but are supposed to be Harlick 7AAAA that I stretched the width of aggressively.  (I think I have a B width now.)   

Given this I thought I could go down to a 9 1/2 blade?  The skate tech became really discombobulated about it all (he always gets that way in conversation  ) but eventually seemed to agree and prefer a shorter blade if possible, and I figured I'd ask all you guys here about it since all I can do is wait right now.   

Btw, I am so nervous about switching despite being excited since there is so much talk about Aspire XPs being bad for spinning although I seem to do pretty well with them.  I just made a big leap in progress with the back spin especially and worry a lot about how long it'll take to get used to something new! 

[Bill_S]

Can you contact Harlick and get a confirmation about the sole length before investing in new blades? It would be a shame to get new bladesand not have them fit correctly when the new boots arrive.

That said, I do think that your assumptions are carefully made. If I were betting on a likely strategy, that would be it. But it's still a bit of gamble.

There's no doubt that it WILL take time to adjust to new equipment. That includes both boots and blades. BTW, I never adapted to Jackson Ultima blades for spinning in my blade experiments, but you must consider that I was a long-time user of MK and Wilson blades. Regardless, I think that you will be better served in the long run with Pattern 99 blades, especially given the time and energy you put into skating.

[AlbaNY]

Bill, I'd have to wait for Harlick to receive/process the order otherwise I would have asked yesterday.  I could wait, but I think I'm okay with the gamble since I plan to use the old skates as backup/pond.  The part I was most unsure about was if it is correct to think that 9 1/2" blades would be okay for these boots given that the 9 3/4" plates reach the ends?

I'll have to report back about the adaptation.  I sure hope it isn't too bad.  One reason I'm in a rush to switch is to have as much time as possible to get used to them before the end of the LTS semester (being hopeful to get those Freeskate 3 and 4 patches.)     Also, I may try competing at a little local thing in January, so...  that sounds like so far off, but I have no idea what to expect. 

[Bill_S]

You should be fine substituting a 9-1/2 blade if your 9-3/4 blades are flush with the ends of your current boots.

[Query]

Attached is a quick and imperfect scan of the article.  There was a lot of glare on the shiny paper, so I couldn't put it on a flat surface...but the content is readable.

I wonder how important the blade is to boot stiffness.

In particular, many people, including at least one medical study, have claimed that more flexible blade chassis (to some extent aluminum, such as are in Paramount and Ultima Matrix blades; but more so for carbon fiber - e.g., Revolution blades) lead to less landing force on the foot, which presumably also means less force on the boot.

But I realize that probably isn't an issue for the o.p., unless she chooses one of those blades.

[AlbaNY]

Thanks for the confirmation on that Bill. 

Query, I'd wonder about that too. 
It's a question for a separate thread, I suppose, but the Pattern 99 phoenix caught my eye in the shop due to the look (despite my usual preference for old styles vs modern stuff.)  Then in some of my reading about Pattern 99s in various place online all I saw were mentions of them being not good to consider.  I haven't seen any detailed reasons, but I'll probably be googling about that at some point. 

[Loops]

Thanks SuperSharp!  +GOE

[supersharp]

I've heard that the Phoenix blades are noisy, which may or may not matter depending on your viewpoint.  If you are planning on doing testing through US Figure Skating (rather than LTS), judges may be distracted by noisy blades and wonder if there is something off with your technique even though it looks fine.  If you are not doing this type of testing (or competition), it probably matters less, although having seen the Phoenix in person (in Phoenix, AZ, haha), I'm not convinced the sides are uniformly parallel, so I would worry about getting a consistent sharpening. 

Of course, being a sharpener, I am possibly more focused on whether or not blades make it possible to reliably create level edges...

[AlbaNY]

I also read they are noisy and could potentially cause sharpening issues, so I'd probably pass on them, but they piqued my interest since my boot choice is heavy, the runner is stainless, and they were rather pretty.  So far I haven't encountered any posts saying positive things about them, and for most blades you can find that much.

[Query]

It's been my theory that the length of the outsole shouldn't determine the length of your blade - after all, the outsole doesn't normally touch the ice, and some people end up with boots that are significantly longer than their feet, because of other fitting parameters. It should have to do with the size and anatomy of your foot, perhaps projected vertically (since most skate boots tilt your foot downwards at the front). Though I'm not sure exactly what the relationship should be.

I mentioned that to a Klingbeil fitter, and they responded that while that might be true, a completely custom boot could be designed so the outsole was the bootmaker's best guess at the right length - and she said that for custom Klingbeil boots, that would be true. However, Klingbeil is out of business, and you are getting a different brand, so that might not apply.

Unfortunately, that won't help you, since I can't be more specific - and I'm not sure other custom bootmakers would agree.

It's a shame that on boots and blades, you frequently have to guess what is right.

Another place people guess is on heel height, which relates to the amount of that forwards tilt. Too much tilt, and you may not be flexible enough to be comfortable (that happened to me), or you may balance poorly. I'm not sure what happens if you get too little tilt - maybe for some people it makes it hard to turn and spin??

It's unfortunate that with such an expensive purchase, there is so much guesswork.

[AlbaNY]

Query, heel height is definitely another big one! 
I like what I have.  (1 3/4")  I'm used to it and happy but wondered what other heights might feel like.  The new blades will I guess be lower perhaps, so that should be interesting.  I know I felt low in Phantoms. 

It would be so nice to be able to try these options first.

Sooooo, my tech called back today saying I'll have to get the blades myself.  I asked him about getting the Step Ninety Nines, and he told me I'd have to go to Canada or find someone to ship them.  He LOVES Step and spoke so highly of the qualities of their hockey blades that I was convinced to go on a search.  (He said he never handled their figure stuff but would try it in a heartbeat if he was me given the finish of their blades, the steel, and the price difference.)

Step never wrote back, so I called Quebec, and they transferred me to I think CCM in the US?  The representative told me that they can't get the blades due to their production being halted until 2023.  That explains the lack of inventory online?

I called a random hockey place near one of my rinks that carries Step before that, and they said they would not handle anything figure.  Next I tried a random store in Canada, and they were helpful but only had the Pattern 99s and no Step Ninety Nines.  The guy I spoke had a helpful comment.  He told me that they used to sell Step hockey blades but have stopped now that CCM took over, because the quality went down terribly with rust and pitting problems.  I thanked him for that information, because it makes me think I'd end up with one pair now if I'm lucky but looking at Pattern 99 in the future if the quality continued to be no longer so nice as it was when recommendations were made.  I really love the idea of stainless and was convinced about the nice quality or else it would be easy to just go ahead and order the others and get it over with.

I think I may still call around and try to hunt down a set, but I hate to waste time.    
We are probably going over the border whenever Daughter's renewed passport arrives, but that leaves me little time to adjust before some things that I rather not be still adapting to new blades for (the end of this LTS semester, lessons with Coach Awesome between the holidays, and possibly competing in early January.)

[Query]

Step never wrote back, so I called Quebec, and they transferred me to I think CCM in the US?  The representative told me that they can't get the blades due to their production being halted until 2023.  That explains the lack of inventory online?

If it is really going to take a year for your boots to be made (ridiculous! I wonder if that is true of other good boot brands.), you could wait until 2023.

Plus, as others have suggested, you may want to wait until the boots come to determine the right size.

To find a discount, you could search at google for

  +"step ninety-nine" +blades

I currently found 5 sites. You could call them all to check for your size. Except that you don't really know your size in this brand.

Just make sure you get the stainless steel version, if that is what you want.

Heel height augments the forward tilt of the foot bed, so the heel height you want may depend on that tilt. Before increasing your total heel elevation (an idea I hate, but maybe you don't), I suggest you put blocks of wood under your current skates, wearing blade covers, and stand for a long while, and see if you actually feel comfortable that way, and you feel well balanced. When I tried 2.5" heels on ice dance boots, it hurt a lot to wear them at all, because I'm not that flexible, and I'm a guy who never wears high heels outside skating, and I had to get them modified. The specific  lean style I was taught (lean back while skating forwards) probably made that over-stretch worse. Of course, had I been taught the opposite lean style (lean forwards while skating forwards), I might have overbalanced instead, and have suffered muscle overuse.

I think high heels are EVIL torture devices, but I admit some people disagree.

[AlbaNY]

Query, I was told by another source today that the blades aren't going to be made at all anymore.    They sounded reliable and reasonable. 

As for the boot timeline, it could be only 10 months, and I do not anticipate less although I see they posted on social media that things are speeding up a little again?  I can hope, but I rather pay for lessons than the expediting fees that were not that much sooner.  I'm an adult and can be patient.  Also, I've waited longer for custom footwear before.  (I hate my sensitive feet!)

Thank you, I'm no good at Googling, so that should help.  I definitely want stainless if I find the Step blade.  I called that many places today though. 

You tried a 2.5" heel?  Omg.  I have worn very high heels off ice before, like 4+ inches on a rare occasion, but I have no desire to now, and lately it makes my big toe joint ache awfully even in "low" heels off ice.  I kept the 1 3/4" that I have for that reason.  I want no pain that I don't need.   
Very old skates, a hundred years ago, had very low heels I think?  I find that interesting. 

[tstop4me]

You tried a 2.5" heel?  Omg.  I have worn very high heels off ice before, like 4+ inches on a rare occasion, but I have no desire to now, and lately it makes my big toe joint ache awfully even in "low" heels off ice.  I kept the 1 3/4" that I have for that reason.  I want no pain that I don't need.   
Very old skates, a hundred years ago, had very low heels I think?  I find that interesting.

When it comes to choice of heel height, it's wiser to err on the side of lower rather than higher.  If too low, you can add spacers.  If too high, cutting down the heels incurs a lot more grief. An advanced ice dancer at my rink was having problems with her new dance boots.  Her coach (also my coach) suspected that she needed higher heels.  The coach knew I did a lot of tinkering with boots, so she asked me for help.  I made multiple sets of trial spacers of different thicknesses.  I brought them to the rink and installed them on the spot so the ice dancer could try them out in near real time.  I swapped out the spacers until we found the Goldilocks value (this spacer is too thin, this spacer is too thick, this spacer is just right).  I then took the boots home and installed more robust spacers of the proper thickness.

[AlbaNY]

When it comes to choice of heel height, it's wiser to err on the side of lower rather than higher.  If too low, you can add spacers.  If too high, cutting down the heels incurs a lot more grief. An advanced ice dancer at my rink was having problems with her new dance boots.  Her coach (also my coach) suspected that she needed higher heels.  The coach knew I did a lot of tinkering with boots, so she asked me for help.  I made multiple sets of trial spacers of different thicknesses.  I brought them to the rink and installed them on the spot so the ice dancer could try them out in near real time.  I swapped out the spacers until we found the Goldilocks value (this spacer is too thin, this spacer is too thick, this spacer is just right).  I then took the boots home and installed more robust spacers of the proper thickness.

That's pretty neat!

[AlbaNY]

Wow, I ended up ordering Pattern 99s yesterday, and I had a shipping notice from UPS late tonight with delivery tomorrow!  Maybe Friday I can have them mounted so I can start getting used to them before lessons next week. 

[Bill_S]

Wonderful news! I hope that getting used to them goes rapidly for you. 

[supersharp]

When it comes to choice of heel height, it's wiser to err on the side of lower rather than higher.  If too low, you can add spacers.  If too high, cutting down the heels incurs a lot more grief. An advanced ice dancer at my rink was having problems with her new dance boots.  Her coach (also my coach) suspected that she needed higher heels.  The coach knew I did a lot of tinkering with boots, so she asked me for help.  I made multiple sets of trial spacers of different thicknesses.  I brought them to the rink and installed them on the spot so the ice dancer could try them out in near real time.  I swapped out the spacers until we found the Goldilocks value (this spacer is too thin, this spacer is too thick, this spacer is just right).  I then took the boots home and installed more robust spacers of the proper thickness.

Great idea!  For someone who wonders if the heels are too high, you could do a similar experiment by using spacers to lift the toe plate.

[Query]

The use of spacers sounds like a great idea.

BTW, I asked here why figure skates had high heels in 2007, and got some very interesting replies

http://skating.zachariahs.com/skatingforums-onice/www.skatingforums.com/showthread49de.html?t=25111

It is interesting that ice dancers are often told to get higher heels than for freestyle. I wonder if it has something to do with getting faster turns.

I suppose it is also possible that over time, the heel height and the shapes of the blades have been adapted to work with each other. E.g., if you raise or lower the heel height, the relationship of the toe pick to the rest of the boot would have to change to give you the same feel and interactions. In a real sense, the shape of the blade should change in other ways if you substantially alter the heel height.

And maybe that is why ice dancers tend to go with higher heels: ice dance blades are shaped to make it harder to interact with the toe pick - maybe they went too far in that direction?

Oh well, heel height is kind of a side issue. to the o.p., since she already decided on that.


I still don't get why the wait for the o.p.'s new boots is going to be so long. Is that true for other custom boot brands? And is it something that developed during Covid - i.e., did they temporally stop production, and still need to catch up? Is that long a wait true for non-custom boots?

[tstop4me]

Great idea!  For someone who wonders if the heels are too high, you could do a similar experiment by using spacers to lift the toe plate.

That's a good point.  Much better alternative to cutting down the heels.

[AlbaNY]

Quick update to this saga:  I already am beginning to love the Pattern 99s after just barely an hour on them.  Niiiiiiiiiiiiice.   

[supersharp]

Quick update to this saga:  I already am beginning to love the Pattern 99s after just barely and hour on them.  Niiiiiiiiiiiiice.   

That is great news! 

[Query]

Quick update to this saga:  I already am beginning to love the Pattern 99s after just barely an hour on them.  Niiiiiiiiiiiiice.   

What do you love about them?