Blademaster SC4000A blade alignment tool

[Kaitsu]

Has anyone seen this tool in use?
http://blademaster.com/web/usa/en/blademaster/415-sc4000a.html

It seems to be impossible to find any pictures or videos how this tool is actually used. Is the clamp in the middle holding blade or what is its functionality?

I can understand partly its functionality, but it would be more easier to decide if you put so much money to some tool if they would show how its actually used. I do have already too many expensive tools laying as a decor.

[Query]

They have other alignment tools: SC4000, SC4000A, SC4100 and SC4100A, SC4200, SC4200A and on their website, that look pretty similar. Some of these tools are for inline or hockey skates. Maybe if you can find info for one of the others, it would help.

Their website lists a U.S. phone number: 1-800-878-4648. They might not speak your language. They also have 3 social media contact methods.

If you speak Russian, this link
  https://4ps-shop.ru/catalog/stanki-aksessuary/servisnoe_oborudovanie_dlya_konkov/aksessuary_dlya_raboty_s_konkami/sc4000a_reguliruemyy_datchik/
has a phone number too, and according to Google Translate, it looks like you can ask questions.

I wonder if you stand on it, wearing the boots, to determine your body's best line of balance? Like standing on a pencil, but more expensive, and therefore, better. But that wouldn't explain why you need different tools for figure, hockey and inline.

Incidentally, another type of alignment: here is a Blademaster alignment tool to help adjust sharpening wheel height:
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU2YF0AhkWM
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoTBk1kFqFk
I have no idea how well it works, and I'm a little unclear of the exact details of operation.

[supersharp]

I hit the "contact us" option on the Blademaster site and they sent this user guide for the SC4000A (pdf attached).

[Query]

I read the directions, and still don't see the point. All the adjustments are done after removing the fixture. Not sure if it saves any time over taping the blade in place while you drill.

Also - it isn't the case for all of us that we want the toe of the blade aligned with the center of the toe of the boot. Better to use slotted holes up front too. And I would claim it is also sometimes better to shift the blade slightly forward or back, though some might disagree. (E.g., Mike Cunningham told me that if he didn't align the toe of what Blademaster calls the sole plate with the front of the boot, other skate techs would claim he was incompetent.)

I'd rather stand on something thin to find my balance points, front and rear, mark positions (I admit it would work slightly better if a second person - like the skate tech - did that, because I might lose my balance as I bend over), then tape the blade in place so I can drill the initial holes for the slotted holes. That gives me more adjustability.

Then again, I eventually switched to making adjustments to the insole rather than offsetting the blade - which does take more time.

It would be wonderful if they had a tool that let you skate with different blade positions and orientations before you drill the holes or shim the blade, but it doesn't sound like this tool does that.

But I'm  probably missing the point. E.g., maybe the tool's most important purpose is to impress customers.

What is "toe and heel enamel"?

[Kaitsu]

It would be wonderful if they had a tool that let you skate with different blade positions and orientations before you drill the holes or shim the blade, but it doesn't sound like this tool does that.

Here is ready solution for you...https://web.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-050114-120629/unrestricted/Adjustable_Mount_Skate_Blade_MQP_Childs.pdf
There is even dimensional drawings what you give to machinist.

[tstop4me]

What is "toe and heel enamel"?

They probably mean "sole and heel enamel", a varnish-like sealant for leather.  See, e.g., https://angelusdirect.com/products/angelus-sole-heel-enamel.  That then leads to more questions:

*  Is it needed only on leather soles and heels?

*  What is the purpose of sealing a pilot hole prior to installing a screw?  After all, the threads will bite through the sealant anyway.

[Query]

Here is ready solution for you...https://web.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-050114-120629/unrestricted/Adjustable_Mount_Skate_Blade_MQP_Childs.pdf
There is even dimensional drawings what you give to machinist.

BTW, last I checked, high end speed skate mounts already have adjustable offset and alignment, as well as (deliberately) adjustable warp.

>tstop4me wrote
>What is the purpose of sealing a pilot hole prior to installing a screw?  After all, the threads will bite through the sealant anyway.

Tstop4me, I'm not sure, but do you think the screws or bolts marked TSM-695 are supposed to screw into the outsole to temporally hold the tool in place? Maybe they mean to seal those temporary holes, and/or clean up the appearance. Or maybe they made a mistake, and actually meant the installer to apply the sealant after the blade is mounted.

Regardless, am I wrong? Would using the alignment tool be faster than working without the tool? I haven't mounted or remounted all that many blades, and don't fully understand the directions, so perhaps I don't understand how this tool saves time.

[tstop4me]

>tstop4me wrote
>What is the purpose of sealing a pilot hole prior to installing a screw?  After all, the threads will bite through the sealant anyway.

Tstop4me, I'm not sure, but do you think the screws or bolts marked TSM-695 are supposed to screw into the outsole to temporally hold the tool in place? Maybe they mean to seal those temporary holes, and/or clean up the appearance. Or maybe they made a mistake, and actually meant the installer to apply the sealant after the blade is mounted.

The jig is clamped onto the boot.  It is not temporarily mounted with screws.  The holes that are sealed are explicitly pilot holes for mounting the blades.  The pilot holes are explicitly sealed prior to installation of the mounting screws.  These mounting screws are not the TSM-695 in the drawing. 

From page 3 of the instructions:

"Using the slotted holes in the sole and heel plate plus one hole at the toe,
drill pilot holes. Remove the fixture and seal the holes with a toe and heel
enamel or a like product. Reposition the blade and screw in the blade screws."

There is no ambiguity there for me.  The rationale is a mystery to me, however.  If the intent is to seal the leather in the fresh hole, then the screw threads will cut through the sealant afterwards.  If the intent is to lock-in the screw, then there are better suited compounds.

[supersharp]

In the pivoting blade mount dissertation, I found the basis for their design approach interesting:

The first decision that was made was determining the pivot location. It was eventually decided that the heel should be used as the pivot location as there was more room for the toe to be mounted. In
addition, the heel placement location is constant for all people, regardless of their placement angle. As a result, the decision was made to place the pivot location at the heel.

I have mounted many skates and I can't agree that the heel placement is a constant location.  It may be that we all seek to get the blade centered under the back of the heel, but each person's foot, insole, and boot anomalies make the actual placement slightly different to achieve this goal.  I've also seen the placement change in response to injury or injury recovery, seemingly due to changes in where the skater was comfortable putting the pressure on the foot. 

[tstop4me]

In the pivoting blade mount dissertation, I found the basis for their design approach interesting:

The first decision that was made was determining the pivot location. It was eventually decided that the heel should be used as the pivot location as there was more room for the toe to be mounted. In
addition, the heel placement location is constant for all people, regardless of their placement angle. As a result, the decision was made to place the pivot location at the heel.

I have mounted many skates and I can't agree that the heel placement is a constant location.  It may be that we all seek to get the blade centered under the back of the heel, but each person's foot, insole, and boot anomalies make the actual placement slightly different to achieve this goal.  I've also seen the placement change in response to injury or injury recovery, seemingly due to changes in where the skater was comfortable putting the pressure on the foot.

Yes.  Yeah, the Blademaster jig uses a fixed pivot point at the toe; and the WPI jig uses a fixed pivot point at the heel.  I agree with you:  you can't set a fixed pivot point for every skater. 

I've got several leg and foot abnormalities.  I had offset the heel plate on my left boot to the outside because (among several reasons) my knee would move inwards when I did a deep knee bend.  But over the past 6 months or so, I've been doing intensive drills for a one-foot spin.  Lately, when I do a deep knee bend, the knee no longer moves inward, but straight over my toes.  I moved the heel plate inwards and have much better edge control now.

[Query]

At one point I found my balance and alignment was best if I offset both the toe and heel quite a bit more than the sliding slots allowed if I initially mounted the blade in the center. In fact, it was physically painful for me to fight the tendency to lean without the offset, do I think to muscle overuse, because it didn't occur at the beginning of a skating session, but developed over the course of the skating session.

But then Don Klingbeil told me that I had twisted my Klingbeil boots due to that offset - he said Klingbeil boots (which are no longer manufactured) were designed for a center mount. So I switched back to a center mount, and modified the insole shape instead.

I still can't spin well, but I think I spin a little easier since that change. (In which case the center fixed point they initially advocate might be OK - but very few skate techs modify the shape of the insole, perhaps because that would take more time than offsetting the blade, perhaps because they haven't been taught to do that.)

Regardless, the basic question remains: Kaitsu wanted to know whether buying the tool made sense. I.E., do you believe the tool will speed up or improve the mounting process?

Every time you remove and re-insert a screw in leather, you tend to wear out the leather a bit. So I'm inclined to think it might make things very slightly worse. But I may be missing something very important.


On another topic, tstop4me, I like the idea you mentioned in passing of locking the screw in place, because mine eventually have to be re-tightened once in a while. I think the thread lock compound I've heard of (Loctite brand) is designed for metals. What works well in leather, bearing in mind that it still needs to be removable? What works well in plastic and composite soles, with the same proviso?

E.g., would something simple and cheap, like the glue sticks that comes with a dollar store hot glue gun, do the trick?

[supersharp]

I have used clear epoxy as a form of "loctite" on screws in leather, it is pretty effective.  It takes a little more effort to get the screws to start to turn when you want to remove them, but they come out easily once you get them turning.

I have also used and have seen other people use silicone sealant for the same purpose.  I find it less effective.

My guess is hot glue would be messy and would only work if you heated up the screws. A liquid or gel will work better. 

[tstop4me]

At one point I found my balance and alignment was best if I offset both the toe and heel quite a bit more than the sliding slots allowed if I initially mounted the blade in the center. In fact, it was physically painful for me to fight the tendency to lean without the offset, do I think to muscle overuse, because it didn't occur at the beginning of a skating session, but developed over the course of the skating session.

But then Don Klingbeil told me that I had twisted my Klingbeil boots due to that offset - he said Klingbeil boots (which are no longer manufactured) were designed for a center mount. So I switched back to a center mount, and modified the insole shape instead.

I still can't spin well, but I think I spin a little easier since that change. (In which case the center fixed point they initially advocate might be OK - but very few skate techs modify the shape of the insole, perhaps because that would take more time than offsetting the blade, perhaps because they haven't been taught to do that.)

Depending on the specific boot and the specific skater, you may make corrections by (1) replacing the stock footbed with a corrective footbed or orthotic, (2) changing the position or alignment (or both) of the blade, (3) shimming the blade, or (4) a combination of any one or more of the above.  I've come across techs who advocate only one method, but I prefer to keep my options open, weighing the pluses and minuses of each for a specific scenario.

Regardless, the basic question remains: Kaitsu wanted to know whether buying the tool made sense. I.E., do you believe the tool will speed up or improve the mounting process?

That's not the basic question. In his original post,  Kaitsu asked for information on how the jig is used.  Armed with that information, he can then decide for himself whether or not he should purchase it.  Supersharp supplied that information in Reply #2.  That's the case with most purchases.  Each customer needs to decide for himself whether a prospective purchase will satisfy his own (not someone else's) needs or wants within the constraints of his own (not someone else's) budget.

Every time you remove and re-insert a screw in leather, you tend to wear out the leather a bit. So I'm inclined to think it might make things very slightly worse. But I may be missing something very important.

A very important point you're missing is that use of the jig does not entail any additional installation/removal cycles of a screw compared to, e.g., taping the blade to the boot for initial positioning and alignment.

[tstop4me]

On another topic, tstop4me, I like the idea you mentioned in passing of locking the screw in place, because mine eventually have to be re-tightened once in a while. I think the thread lock compound I've heard of (Loctite brand) is designed for metals. What works well in leather, bearing in mind that it still needs to be removable? What works well in plastic and composite soles, with the same proviso?

E.g., would something simple and cheap, like the glue sticks that comes with a dollar store hot glue gun, do the trick?

I don't currently use thread-lock compound anymore, since, as I discussed in another post, I now use fiber or plastic washers with pan-head screws throughout on all mounting holes (these washers are slightly compressible and hence provide some degree of locking).  But for several decades, on leather soles and heels, I used rubber and gasket adhesive, both on the screw threads and under the screw heads.  This is a non-hardening adhesive; it dries to a super-tacky, flexible goop.  With a new boot/blade combo, I usually continue to tighten the screws over the first ~6 sessions, as the sole and heel of the boot deform to conform to the sole plate and heel plate of the blade.  I also periodically check the tightness of the screws, since the sole and the heel of the boot are not stable and continue to deform.  The super-tacky, flexible goop allows me to make these tweaks while maintaining a good bond (whereas the bond of a hardening adhesive would break once you turn the screw).  At the same time, you can remove the screws, when needed, without undue effort.

I've only used this on leather.  With plastic or composite materials, I would first try it on a non-critical portion of the sole.  These adhesives use a volatile organic solvent base, so I would test whether it unduly attacks the material.  These adhesives should be used with adequate ventilation. 

[Query]

I just realized something, that might change my mind about the usefulness of this fixture.

This paragraph

The SC-4100A is an adjustable fixture, designed to move the position of
the blade from left to right of center, at the toe and heel independently. This is
done to accommodate a skater's style or physical skating (standing) habits.

might be viewed as out of order.

Also, I think the instruction writer forgot to mention that the TSM-695 bolts could be tightened too, to lock the side-to-side offset and alignment of the fixture to the boot.

Also, if shims are needed, because the shape and tilts of the mounting plate don't precisely mesh with the shape of the bottom of the boot, the shims can be added between them, before locking the fixture to the boot.

Also, it would be nice if "hockey blade" in the instructions were changed to "figure skating blade".

In the right order, after adding shims tightening the TSM-695 bolts, the blade and fixture are all locked to the bottom of the boot. The skater could then stand on the boot and blade, on a rubber floor, to see whether they are approximately balanced. If not, the fixture could be adjusted to move the blade left or right, in the front, and in the back - before drilling any holes. They could iterate the procedure until balance was good.

When the balancing procedure was done, THEN the holes could be drilled (and perhaps a center punch or center-drill-bits - or maybe, if the bevel of the drill chuck is right, and the drill is thin enough, you don't need one - see reply #36 I just added here), though you might need a long enough drill bit so that the fixture didn't get in the way of the drill. (Sometimes that is a problem even without a fixture.)

Could one balance the blade on the ice too, before any holes are drilled. I'm not certain that the fixture would clamp the blade firmly enough to the boot to allow for any skating. But I don't know.

Anyway, now I think the fixture is a good idea for a skate tech that mounts a lot of blades on a lot of skates, that would speed up the procedure, and eliminate the need to drill extra holes if the initial balance isn't approximately right. I just want the instructions to be corrected, re-ordered, and clarified.

Perhaps someone mechanically more adept than me would have figured all this out immediately without confusion. Did you folks immediately understand these things?

[tstop4me]

I just want the instructions to be corrected, re-ordered, and clarified.

Are there errors in the instructions that should be corrected?  Yes. 
Can the instructions be re-written in a clearer manner?  Yes. 
Are the instructions fundamentally flawed?  No. 
Is your understanding of what the jig does and does not do fundamentally flawed?  Yes.

[Query]

At the moment, the U.S. web page lists a price, $426, but the Canadian page does not.

I emailed Blademaster, through their website:

You offer several alignment gauges, including SC-4000 and SC-4000A.
1. What is the difference? Can both work with figure skates?
2. Can the skater stand on their boot while the tool is attached, to check balance?
3. Can the skater skate on their boot while the tool is attached, to check balance and tracking?
4. If the answer to 2 and 3 is no, what is the benefit of using the tool vs temporally taping the blade to the boot while drilling?
5. Why do your instructions say to fill the pilot holes with enamel before using them? It seems like that defeats the purpose of properly positioning and aligning the screws.

By the way, looking closer at the pictures, the answer to #1 is obvious: SC-4000A is adjustable.

"Technical Support" replied, quoting my questions, and said.

We will answer as soon as possible.

It took a while for them to respond, and I initially missed it, because Yahoo mail redirected their reply to my spam folder. In the mean time I called their U.S. phone number, which reached the U.S. distributor. He said to fill the initial holes only if they are found to be in the wrong position. He also said the device does not clamp the blade strongly enough to stand or skate on it, to check balance or tracking. I didn't think to ask if one could sit with it on, to approximately check the left/right knee alignment, which is the way some boot fitters check alignment.

He wasn't able to explain how it would be faster to use the device than taping the blade on when drilling the holes, except that you can move the blade left or right on the adjustable gauge without retaping it. But when I asked, he did not specify how to determine what offset to move it to. (I like the idea of standing, in one foot glide position, with the boots on, on something thin, and marking the position of the blade using masking tape or painter's tape (because they come off easily, leaving no residue). But I admit I did it for myself, long ago, iteratively, on the ice, by feeling which side of my foot had more weight on it, during one foot glides.

I also called the Canadian number, and was told that the respondent had just sent a response to my email, which I quoted above. If they make further response, I will post it here.

Obviously, anyone on this forum could have done that, if they really cared. My only advantage over some of you is that English is my mother tongue, and calling to the U.S. and Canada is free on my phone plan.

But if their response is insufficient for any of your purposes, I suggest you call or message them.

Perhaps it would be possible to make simple clamps (perhaps out of simple hose clamps, plus cloth or tape to prevent cosmetic damage to the boots??) that would clamp the boots to the blades strongly enough to do initial one foot glide testing on the ice, or one foot balance (perhaps with a plastic blade guard, to improve balance), and do everything I thought this tool could do. That would also be cheaper than the SC4000A. But it wouldn't be as impressive to the customer.

[tstop4me]

An adage says "a picture is worth a thousand words".  But for those inexperienced with mechanical drawings, a few words of annotation are worth a thousand points of enlightenment.  PIX. 1 shows an operational drawing taken from the instructions that supersharp cited in Reply #2.  The features in black are those of the original drawing.  The features in red are my annotations.

There are three main elements:  (a) the boot (shown in outline), (b) the blade (shown in X-hatch), and (c) the jig (remaining components).  The jig clamps onto the boot via jig clamp 1, jig clamp 2, jig clamp 3, and jig clamp 4.  Note that the jig clamps secure only the jig to the boot; they do not secure the mounting plates of the blade to the boot.  The blade is secured to the guide bar (a component of the jig) via the blade clamp.

Essential to note is that the blade clamp is fitted over (in this view) a portion of the edges of the blade.  Therefore, if you try to wear the skate with the jig in place for functional tests [assuming, merely for the sake of argument, that the jig clamps adequately secure the jig to the boot for functional tests ... which they won't], the blade clamp would be the bottom-most component.  If you try to sit or stand, the blade clamp, not the blade edges, will contact the floor first.  If you try to skate, the blade clamp, not the edges, will contact the ice first.  So at least the blade clamp [and possibly the guide bar (not clear, insufficient detail)] would prevent all the functional tests you envision and speculate on.

[Query]

Oh - I see.

I misinterpreted the position of what you are calling the "blade clamp" I thought it was underneath the main runner in the picture (and therefore over the part of the runner that touches the ice) - which would be possible on my old Matrix 1 blades, and some other blades with cut-outs in the runner or the part of the blade to which the runner is attached, but not on old-style blades with no cut-outs.

I should have realized the the dotted lines of the blade imply the blade clamp is on top (in that inverted orientation) of the blade.

I was also confused by the fact that they didn't dot some of the lines of the blade that I guess are meant to be underneath what might be called the protractor scales, in that inverted diagram. It looked to me like they were on top of the boot (in worn orientation). Which would make no sense - While a plate lie on top of the boot in the front of the boot (in the orientation the boot is worn), many boots do not have a protruding sole at the back, or an indented portion at the back of the boot above the heel, that anything could lie on top of.

So - one would need a different type of clamp to do what I want.

I will start a new thread to suggest a clamp that would do what I want, to test body/boot/blade balance, alignment, fit and shim.

[Kaitsu]

Since the Blademaster blade alignment tool is quite expensive and it is not exactly what I have been looking for, I made my own. This should fit most of our budget. It should be so easy to use, that it won't require such a skilled person to use it. To be noted that this tool only help to give starting point for blade initial positioning. Usually, people's courage to attach the blades by themselves ends already there when they have no idea how to position the blades to the sole. This tool works like a mental support and is therefore suitable for both advanced skate technicians and beginners.

[marc]

ouahh, kaitsu, c'est super ce que tu as fait et cela pourrait vraiment m'interesser de m'en fabriquer un!!
Mais est ce que ce systeme serait standard à toutes les marques : risport et edea entre autres??
parce que c'est toujours compliqué de bien centrer!!!