A way to center a sharpening machine on the blade

[tstop4me]

With regards to using a coarse stone of any sort to deburr -

I personally have chosen to use an expensive 5000 grit (U.S. standard) flat stone, designed to help sharpen razors. I like the finish it creates, and feel it does less damage to the edge. If you use a coarse grit, it rounds off the edge a lot, which means your edge is effectively much less sharp. Even when I am not trying to create an ultra-sharp edge, I like this stone. But it may be finer and more expensive than it needs to be.

I tried coarser grit stones before, and did not like the results.

But a lot of people who sharpen skates make due with less expensive and somewhat coarser grit stones.

I would be curious what grit sizes the other people in this discussion use.

The type of edge you want for garden tools may be different from a figure skating or hockey blade. A garden tool sometimes hits rocks, so it should not be very sharp. On well maintained ice rinks, there are no rocks.

I think a little unevenness and variability doesn't matter much on garden tools, but can affect skating a lot. A flat stone is easier to control than a curved stone, so it is easier to produce a uniform edge.

Refer to this thread https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8701.0 , Reply #12 and #13.

Each edge is formed by the intersection of two surfaces:  an inside surface that's a portion of the hollow and an outside surface (external to the hollow) along the nominal "side" of the blade.  Unless the ice is very soft, the edge does not bite into the ice very deep.  So typically we need be concerned with the surface finish only near the apex of the edge. [If the ice is so soft that your blade sinks in deep, you'll have inherently high friction anyway, so surface finish won't be an important factor in that instance.]  The hollow will be ground with either a commercial powered machine or a manual sharpener; the abrasive will be 100 grit or maybe 320 grit or so at the finest.  So, unless you polish the inside (hollow) surface as well, I don't think you gain much advantage (if at all) in using an ultrafine 5000 grit (vs a 320 grit or at most a 600 grit) whetstone to polish the outside surface only [as discussed in a previous post, PBHE (http://precisionblade.com/index.php/product-catalogue/) supplies a manual unit for polishing the hollow; and I've seen listings for polishing wheels for commercial powered sharpeners, though I've never come across a tech who uses one]. 

Since we have recent members who are interested in sharpening, I'll discuss (in a separate thread) my latest refinements in honing both surfaces of an edge with a "steel".

[Kaitsu]

But I think you are assume that the blade is already fairly sharp, If it isn't, you won't get marks all the way across the blade in step 4. Many people don't sharpen very often, so the blade may not always be that sharp. So, instead, you will get a mark somewhere in the center. That is the assumption I made.

This method works even the blades would be dull. Wheel just don´t contact in to areas where the steel has worn out. Most part of the hollow still exists, right?
Bad nicks will causes sometimes troubles when they are higher than the hollow. This marker trick hardly ever align blade so accurately that height adjustment of skate carriage would not needed while grinding. It ensures that you wont start to grind 3.8mm thick blade with 4mm blade setup, like too many skate techs do. I call them plug&play sharpeners.

Also, some people don't want even edges. E.g., some hockey players skate mainly on their inside edges, so it is harder to push them over. So do some beginning figure skaters, though I'm not sure you should accommodate that, because they should learn to use outside edges soon. Some skating referees use their outside edges more than their inside edges, when they are dodging pucks and sticks. Neither I nor you addressed those issues here.

So far no-ones has requested from me to make uneven edges for their figure skates, but I have lots and lots of experience that figure skaters has been much more happier to their skates after unevenness has been corrected. Quite may of them say that spins are much more easier after uneven edges were grind to be even. If someone wants uneven edges to their figure skates, I will guide them to go these so called plug&play sharpeners. I do not have enough accurate angle protractor to ensure that skater will get every time same unevenness to their skates. Repeatability combined with the high accuracy are that those key factors which ensures that skater does not need get used to "totally new skates" every time they are sharpened. 0.25 degrees deviation in the squareness should be still acceptable, but typically deviations are somewhere 1-3 degrees.

Instead of making uneven edges for the very beginners, better idea is to grind a bit deeper hollow for them so that they can trust to their skates. Maximum glide is not most important feature in that stage. Skates should be anyhow sharpened properly also for them, even they often walk on concrete fools without blade covers.

Warped blades

My instruction assumes that skate tech has done his/her duties in earlier step where blades has been mounted into the boots. When I get skates which I have never been sharpened before, I will always check and correct blade straightness. So in my instruction the marker will indicate if I follow the same traces as last time. If not and skates should in condition of your previous sharpening, then alarm bell should ring in your head and you should stop to think what has changed.

I would estimate that 70% of the figure skates are suffering from the wrapped blades and mostly because skate techs does not pay attention how they wrap / twist / bend the blade while they mount them.

Unfortunately Sid Broadbent planar boots didn't fly on figure skate world. In roller skates they are used, even the benefits would be same or even higher on figure skates. I would say that planar boots would solve quite many issues.

I am not sure, when you talk about a bent "blade holder" in step 5 of your link, whether you mean the way in which the runner is attached to the base on the skate, or the blade holder you use when sharpening.

I am referring to skate carriage where you mount the blade while sharpening. With skate carriage you can force blade to be more straight or bent it to be not straight.

[marc]

I am really happy to discuss with the best sharpeners (kaitsu and tstop4me that I discovered in a short time, and others certainly ....).
My job is a gardener, and one day I was offered a little sharpening training, and since that day, all my tools cut like a razor. every gardener sharpens with a grinder or a sharpening stone, not me. I sharpen with a bacho sharp x. When you sharpen a hedge trimmer with a grinder, in some sharpening the teeth break !!
I believe in grinding wheels for roughing, yes but not to finish?
And the tstop4me tools look great for finishing the hollow in the axis: The blade is honed using a 15 micro finishing film on a honing mandrel with the exact radius as the grinding wheel.
From my small level, I believe that it is the best tool to properly finish the interior of the hollow.

[tstop4me]

I am really happy to discuss with the best sharpeners (kaitsu and tstop4me that I discovered in a short time, and others certainly ....).
My job is a gardener, and one day I was offered a little sharpening training, and since that day, all my tools cut like a razor. every gardener sharpens with a grinder or a sharpening stone, not me. I sharpen with a bacho sharp x. When you sharpen a hedge trimmer with a grinder, in some sharpening the teeth break !!
I believe in grinding wheels for roughing, yes but not to finish?
And the tstop4me tools look great for finishing the hollow in the axis: The blade is honed using a 15 micro finishing film on a honing mandrel with the exact radius as the grinding wheel.
From my small level, I believe that it is the best tool to properly finish the interior of the hollow.

Just to clarify: 

* I don't have a power sharpener (at least right now).  Kaitsu, supersharp, and Bill_S are the ones here with experience with power sharpeners.  I've used the Pro-Filer manual sharpener.

* The PBHE honing tools were previously discussed.  I haven't used them myself, and can't comment on how well they work or not.  I use a steel for honing.  I have previous posts on that, but I'll be providing an update on improved tools.

[tstop4me]

Unfortunately Sid Broadbent planar boots didn't fly on figure skate world. In roller skates they are used, even the benefits would be same or even higher on figure skates. I would say that planar boots would solve quite many issues.

Yeah, it's a real pity the co-planar design was not accepted.  It was understandable when blade companies and boot companies were entirely separate entities, and the co-planar design would require co-operative redesign of boots and blades.  But since Jackson/Ultima and Riedell/Eclipse have been supplying both boots and blades for a number of years now, I was hoping they would see the light.  But apparently not.

[supersharp]

Refer to this thread https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8701.0 , Reply #12 and #13.

  So, unless you polish the inside (hollow) surface as well, I don't think you gain much advantage (if at all) in using an ultrafine 5000 grit (vs a 320 grit or at most a 600 grit) whetstone to polish the outside surface only [as discussed in a previous post, PBHE (http://precisionblade.com/index.php/product-catalogue/) supplies a manual unit for polishing the hollow; and I've seen listings for polishing wheels for commercial powered sharpeners, though I've never come across a tech who uses one]. 

Great discussion thread!  These are my thoughts based on my experience with the Incredible Edger machine that I have used since 2006.  I've been fortunate to be able to experiment on my own blades to test different ideas. I am mostly an ice dancer but do some spins and single jumps plus moves in the field.


CHROME RELIEF BAND SMOOTHING
I have experimented with polishing the chrome relief band on skates because years ago I noticed that when I had to clean rust off the chrome relief band, the band became smoother. As Kaitsu says, both sides of the knife will affect the feel of the final product.  I tried it on my own blades at the time and I could feel the difference in the smoothness of the glide.  I then tried it on some of the skates belonging to other adult skaters and coaches and all of them said "I don't know what you did different this time, but they feel so smooth".

Since then, I've added that step for new blades that have a rough chrome relief band, and it has also reduced the amount of rust I need to deal with.  The smoother band traps less water and is easier to wipe dry, so in the end I think I do less work by smoothing the ground chrome relief at the beginning of blade life.  I check the smoothness of the chrome relief when I am given skates to sharpen, and usually will end up smoothing it again about once a heat to reduce nicks and surface damage.

The procedure is: I lay the blade on its side on my workbench on top of a smooth sheet of plastic and smooth it with a flat gummi stone, lubricated with Tri-flow or WD-40, laid flat on the chrome relief band, and spend a minute or so on each side. This is not an attempt to create perfection, particularly because I have not yet created a tool or holder that makes the process perfectly precise. However, it is a big improvement over what the blade manufacturers are providing.

Most skaters want to get every advantage that their equipment can bring them. There is no advantage in leaving the chrome relief band rough, so as long as you have enough attention to detail to be able to smooth it while holding your stone flat to the side.  Marc—it sounds like you probably already have enough experience sharpening garden tools to be able to try this. The small piece of stone in Kaitsu's photo is a good choice, as well as the Swix gummi stone that I borrowed from my ski tuning kit.

I now skate on stainless blades with no chrome relief.  The sides of the blade are flat and parallel and the steel is highly polished. With level edges after every sharpening, I am consistently skating on blades with the same edge angle and with smooth sides and a pretty smooth hollow.  I think it really helps to have the edge angle consistent within a small range (it will change slightly as the blades wear down from newly sharpened to their duller conformation). 

HAND-POLISHING THE HOLLOW
I have also experimented with hand-polishing tools for smoothing the hollow.  A tech who used to sharpen a lot of school figure ("patch") blades showed me how to use a small chunk of wooden dowel wrapped in garnet paper to smooth the hollow after machine grinding. The adult skaters and coaches gave me very positive feedback on adding this step.  Eventually, I found the PBHE website and I ordered the tools that they make for hand polishing (a cylinder wrapped in 15-micron grit sandpaper that is exactly the size of the hollow). Unfortunately, I found the holder for the cylinders to be very frustrating to use.  The brass adjustment screws scratch the sides of the blade and are finicky to get centered on the blade.  The holder gets very sloppy on parabolic or tapered blades.  Since I had years of experience hand-guiding the dowel through the hollow, I switched to hand-guiding the cylinders and don't use the holder at all.  This produced a better finish than the dowel and garnet paper.  The blade must be clamped securely with the hollow facing up to do this, because you need to both see and feel the travel of the dowel or cylinder. I also very strongly recommend cut-proof gloves because I sliced my thumb open (requiring 3 stitches) when my hand slipped. The disadvantage of this method is that if your hand slips and you run the cylinder up over the edge, you dull one single section so you have to regrind with the machine and start over with the hand polishing.  Not the ideal system, but I did this for about a year and a half while slowly troubleshooting through my machine to reduce the chatter it was producing.  It allowed me to provide a better finish than my machine could produce at the time. (I have now realized that the spindle bearings were aging and that was the biggest source of vibration.)

After tearing the machine apart and rebuilding it multiple times to reduce vibration, plus replacing parts, switching to Blademaster ruby wheels and learning how to balance them (thank you, Kaitsu!), I now get a considerably improved finish with only a tiny bit of micro-chatter.  I've compared it at 15x magnification and it is clearly smoother than what I was achieving previously with the hand tools.  After skating on it, I can tell it is smoother.  It feels superb right away.  Previously, it would take about 3 hours of skating on freshly sharpened blades before my school figures felt smooth and normal—there was always some increased drag on the freshly sharpened blades.  Now they feel smooth from the first moment on the ice.  I think I could improve it further with the hand tools, but it may be to the point where the difference would be undetectable. 

I had previously been convinced that the hand tool was a critical final step in the process, but now I can see it is  just one of the ways to improve the machine finish, and may not be necessary.  Also, you will need cylinders to match every ROH, which gets expensive.  Eventually, I want to develop a better holder for the cylinders to see if I can get a more perfect finish, but that's on my list for future projects. 

Marc—before you invest in the hand honing tools, I recommend seeing what kind of finish your new machine produces.


DE-BURRING AGTER GRINDING
In all cases, I deburr the edges after I finish grinding. I can see and feel the difference in smoothness and also feel the difference on the ice. Edges that are not deburred are very grabby and tend to make skaters hate having their blades sharpened.  I use a ceramic stone for this, a 5mm-ish cylinder that I was given for this purpose by the tech who showed me the dowel-and-garnet-paper technique.

LINING UP THE WHEEL WIH THE BLADE
I follow the same procedure as Kaitsu.  I was trained to grind a tiny spot to determine alignment, but once I was working on my own I became concerned about creating inconsistencies along the blade.  Turning the wheel by hand scrapes the marker lines without removing extra metal.  I have tried to check lineup by viewing the blade and wheel from the side, but unfortunately it only gives you a rough idea of lineup. Once you have successfully sharpened one blade in a pair, you will probably find that the second blade is lined up close to that same position, but never assume that a blade is the same as it's partner.  I measure every blade at at least 3 locations (front, first stanchion, second stanchion) with a precision square many times through the process.  I've heard a lot of people say the "eyeball it" and that they "have a pretty good eye". It's really difficult to see tiny differences in edges as close together as on a skate blade, so using a tool is the sensible approach. Using the square is reliable and sure.  A good precision square is a really important investment.

YAY FOR THE FORUM
It's frustrating when no one else around you has any interest or experience with sharpening. It took me years to find this forum and to have the opportunity to discuss sharpening details with other techs and it has been extremely valuable to connect with this group.  I have to add that it is a tremendous relief to find that there are others out there that are having the same questions and figuring out answers. Since I know I have a tendency to overthink things (probably a pre-requisite for being an engineer), it's wonderful to discover that I'm not alone.  For those of us who don't want to be "plug-and-play" techs, this is a great place to share.  I'm actually kind of envious of people like Marc who can get started while having access to people with expertise. So much less agonizing over the startup process!  Have fun with it and ask all the questions... you will be glad you did.

[Query]

So, unless you polish the inside (hollow) surface as well, I don't think you gain much advantage (if at all) in using an ultrafine 5000 grit (vs a 320 grit or at most a 600 grit) whetstone to polish the outside surface only...
Since we have recent members who are interested in sharpening, I'll discuss (in a separate thread) my latest refinements in honing both surfaces of an edge with a "steel".

I like the very fine stone partly because I often like to reshape, redirect, and polish the sharpening burr into a very sharp but fairly fragile foil edge.

In addition, I often use the stone instead of a steel, to straighten rather than sharpen an edge.

I think both of these applications work best with gentle tools, that won't damage the foil much.

I have wondered whether foil edges contribute to my difficulty centering spins. Could it be that spinners should want their blades too shar?

I would love to know about your recent experiments using a steel.

[Kaitsu]

With a very fine grindstone and too high a grinding pressure, the burr may not be removed. The corner of the blade will be just mangled. A very sharp corner is formed on the groove side, which is higher than the hollow grinding itself. A similar but even worse result is achieved with stick sharpeners like a sweet stick. The blade should be checked on the groove side with a fingernail. If the finger nail grabbs when it slider to the hollow side to the edge, it's not a good thing. Like Supersharp described, skates probably feels grappy also on ice, skater struggles with spins and they have problems with Twizzles. Or that is at least feedback what I have received.

It is also true that with coarse honing stone you may mistakenly round just sharpened edges. That has happened to me too many times and I have been forced to make new power grinding. Deburring of figure skates is not so easy as could be imagined. That is mainly due the unpleasant chrome removal grindings 

PS. I did update slightly my instruction.

[supersharp]

Yeah, it's a real pity the co-planar design was not accepted.  It was understandable when blade companies and boot companies were entirely separate entities, and the co-planar design would require co-operative redesign of boots and blades.  But since Jackson/Ultima and Riedell/Eclipse have been supplying both boots and blades for a number of years now, I was hoping they would see the light.  But apparently not.

The ski industry made this change eons ago, much to the advantage of everyone involved.  I had hoped that maybe when HD Sports acquired both MK and Wilson, there might be the opportunity for them to make some useful changes since they would have a bigger market share.  Skaters all over the world would really benefit from a shift to co-planar or, at a minimum, a single angle to be used between sole plates and a flat surface on both the heel and toe plates. Mounting blades can be quite complicated, but it doesn't need to be.  All we need is boots with flat soles and blades with flat sole plates. 

Imagine how much more precise blade mounting could be if we weren't fighting to get the surfaces of the sole plates and boots to meet on flat planes!  Probably 90% of the skates that I see that have been pre-mounted either have the blade positioned incorrectly (lined up with seam regardless of whether seam is at center of front or back) or the blade is mounted with either a twist (due to sole plates being on different angles laterally) or mounted so it is curved (the center of the blade is not on a straight line between the front and back of the blade).  If every pair of skates that has been mounted wrong was instead mounted correctly, there would be a lot more happy skaters out there on the ice. 

I have skated on blades that were twisted and that are mounted on a curve (on purpose, checking to see if I even notice a difference) and even a very small twist or curve makes skating more difficult.  Your edges just aren't where you expect them to be.  For example, on a twisted blade, when you rock back from front to back, you may be on an inside edge at the front and an outside edge at the back.  Your foot will have to learn to make up for the twist by rocking back and doing whatever is required to stay on the inside (or outside) edge.  And when you replace your blades, you will have a whole different set of things to adjust to.  What a nightmare. 

[supersharp]

I like the very fine stone partly because I often like to reshape, redirect, and polish the sharpening burr into a very sharp but fairly fragile foil edge.

I have wondered whether foil edges contribute to my difficulty centering spins. Could it be that spinners should want their blades too shar?

My guess is the foil edges make it harder for you to center a spin.  Typically, once you are really really good at spinning, you can make it happen in spite of things like extreme sharp edges or dull edges, but while you are building that skill, you need a little maneuverability in the blade to find your center.  Having the foil edges probably prevents some of the fine adjustments that the rest of us are performing by having blades that can shift just a tiny bit on the ice to help with our axis.

I'm curious as to what you like about the foil edges--I would think they would be very grabby and make it difficult to create minute adjustments without having to force the blade from one position to another.  Do you feel like you are getting less friction because the edge that is into the ice is so thin? 

[tstop4me]

That is mainly due the unpleasant chrome removal grindings 

Another plus plus plus for stainless steel blades.

[Kaitsu]

Another plus plus plus for stainless steel blades.

Mirror polished stainless blades does not have chrome removal grinding, but their edges often are rolled in the polishing process. Eclipse Luna and Capri are good examples from that. Those blades are just wasting stainless steel and energy which has been used to produce them.

https://www.ice.riedellskates.eu/c/blades

[tstop4me]

Mirror polished stainless blades does not have chrome removal grinding, but their edges often are rolled in the polishing process. Eclipse Luna and Capri are good examples from that. Those blades are just wasting stainless steel and energy which has been used to produce them.

https://www.ice.riedellskates.eu/c/blades

*  Check that website carefully.  The Luna and Capri blades are not marketed under the Eclipse line. In the US, those blades are not even offerred separately (https://www.ice.riedellskates.com/Catalog/Eclipse-Blades?categoryId=&filters=&sortby=1&page=1&pageSize=8&crite).  The Luna and Capri are low-end junk made in China; they are not good examples to call out.  In the US, they are sold pre-mounted on Riedell skate kits (boot plus blade combos).  Big advantage for careless beginners is they don't rust.

*  Blades marketed under the Eclipse line are made in Canada by Step.  They bear the Maple Leaf/"Made in Canada" insignia.  If you want to do a true comparison, you should compare the Wilson Coronation Ace to the Eclipse Aurora.  As I mentioned in another post, I think that the Aurora is superior to the Coronation Ace in almost all respects, with the exception of the flatter spin rocker.  The prices vary somewhat with exchange rates (Coronation Ace made in the UK; Aurora made in Canada).  When I bought the Aurora several years ago, I think it was about $20 less than the Coronation Ace; at present, it's about $15 less; at times, it's been $10 - $20 more [in the US market].  I believe that if Eclipse copied the spin rocker of the Coronation Ace and kept the price within $20 or so (higher or lower) of the Coronation Ace, it would be a runaway seller.  Eclipse blades are not sharpened at the factory.

*  Stainless steel runners on Paramount and Ultima Matrix chassis+runner blades are not mirror polished (not sure about the Eclipse separate runners).

ETA:  You seem to have a love-hate relationship with chrome relief.  On the one hand, you think it is responsible for Wilson/MK blades being the best in the world.  On the other hand, it is a source of grief to you.  Have you compared the Wilson/MK chrome relief to the chrome relief of other manufacturers (in particular, Eclipse ... they claim CNC chrome relief process)?

[supersharp]

Luna and Capri blades are definitely junk.  I suppose that Riedell thinks that a skater in their lower series (Opal, Pearl, Emerald, Diamond) can't tell the difference, and I see the advantage in their being stainless. The quality of the steel and the rolled edges...terrible.

It is very frustrating to be given these blades to work on because you are compelled to do as good of a job as you can, but there is no way you will be able to turn these even into an okay blade.

[marc]

agree with you 2 (supersharp and kaitsu)
3 small traces by turning the grinding wheel by hand (if the grinding wheel turns with the motor we can understand that it makes a bread knife !!)

supersharp
one cannot imagine initially sharpening with the machine (centering well) and, suddenly, in a second step to finish with a cylinder (copper pipe, hard wood, other ...) with very fine abrasive paper ?
And in a third step to deburr the exterior?

(I apologize again for: the machine translation, and I cannot insert quote)

d'accord avec vous 2 (supersharp et kaitsu)
3 petites traces en faisant tourner la meule à la main ( si la meule tourne avec le moteur on peut comprendre que ça fasse un couteau à pain!!)

supersharp
ne peut on pas imaginer dans un premier temps d'affuter à la machine ( bien centrer) et , du coup, dans un deuxème temps de finir avec un cylindre ( tuyau cuivre, bois dur, autre...) avec papier abrasif tré fin?
Et dans un troisème temps ebavurer l'exterieur?

(je m'excuse encore pour: la traduction automatique, et j'arrive pas à insert quote)

[Kaitsu]

Marc,

I suggest to read another thread => http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8695.0

If the power grinder is making chatter marks or other ways not so good surface finish, you can try to improve it by hand polishing. The main issue in these tools is that they cannot correct unevenness so well and some of them travels easily non-parallel in which leads to dull edges.

[Kaitsu]

I first thought you were joking.  But now it's clear you're not.  For the reasons discussed above, I don't think the chrome relief is the secret to MK and Wilson's success.

You are right, I was joking. Chrome removal or actually rolled edge is not secret to the Wilson or MK success. I was trying to challenge people to disagree with me the rolled edge benefits. As we can conclude, I didn't success so well to get different opinions. This explains quite well why they success even the quality is getting worst and worst. As long as users does just not understand blades technical features, manufacturers can do what ever they want. People are sharing glory to "world best blades", no matter how bad the manufacturing quality would be. People should use some time to inspect their blades with measuring tools. After that should watch manufacturer advertising videos. If you have any technical background, it is quite easy to make conclusions why touch point lengths in new blades can vary 5mm between left and right foot and 10mm between identical blade pairs, why 7ft rocker radius can be almost anything and how Parabolic blade can be parallel even it has "parabolic grinding", etc, etc. These things users will never see because they do not measure their new blades and neither most of the skate techs. Some of the quality issues are fixed by skate techs before skaters uses them first time.

Wilson and MK success is based on myth that they have world best blades (best means also best quality to me .  Even-though some other manufacturer would make 100% copy from the Wilson profiles, but with better quality, people are still too scared to buy any other brand. For this reason most of the blade manufacturers needs to refer to Wilson blades. Skaters are grown from generation to generation to believe that they should choose same blades as his/her coach and what coach coach have been using in the time when there was not any other blade manufacturers than these two.

ETA:  You seem to have a love-hate relationship with chrome relief.  On the one hand, you think it is responsible for Wilson/MK blades being the best in the world.  On the other hand, it is a source of grief to you.  Have you compared the Wilson/MK chrome relief to the chrome relief of other manufacturers (in particular, Eclipse ... they claim CNC chrome relief process)?

I hate rolled edge blades from the bottom of my heart. This is the reason why I try to wake-up people to use their own brains to think technical differences example between the rolled edge blades and dovetail blades. They are like mirrored designs from each others. It could be expected that rolled edges would exists only at lower grade beginner blades, but unfortunately they exist also on very high-end blades. In general level I hate poor quality.

I would love to check also other brands than just Wilson, MK and Ultima, but people are not buying any other brands. Exception is of course the the very beginners skates where price is priority 1. I have been using Paramount skates blades in my daughter but I changed them to Ultima blades, as Paramount's are  so hard to get on our country. I would like to see Matrix blades also without dovetail design, just like in Paramount skates blades. Ultima´s dovetail design is very sensitive to have very deep nicks on edges and they are getting thinner and thinner in every sharpening.

[Query]

I'm curious as to what you like about the foil edges--I would think they would be very grabby and make it difficult to create minute adjustments without having to force the blade from one position to another.  Do you feel like you are getting less friction because the edge that is into the ice is so thin?

Maybe it is just what I got used to.

I have also often skated on imperfectly maintained ice, including outdoor ice. It sometimes had incredibly poor or variable condition and temperature ice. Very sharp edges cut through the rough ice on top, so you don't need to adapt your skating style as much to ice conditions. I've skied a little too, mostly cross country. XC Skiing also occurs under highly variable conditions e.g., dry powder, very wet snow, sheer ice) , and at least for a while, I used telemark skis with sharp metal edges. And I took white water kayak lessons, from people who emphasized strong edging, and boats that had strong edges.

When I took skating lessons, I worked hardest on (low level) ice dance. My coaches emphasized deep edges, high speed over the ice, precise trajectory paths, and fast turns, all of which I think are easier - at my low level - with very sharp edges, because they help prevent sideways skidding, let you push harder (ice dance has a lot of stylized pushing strokes), and arguably creates a lower friction, faster glide (because only a very thin foil sliver penetrates much into the surface).

But maybe it makes sense that spins - and perhaps some other things, might need you to skid a little. There are certainly some common ski moves that involve skidding. And if I hadn't learned to sharpen myself, foil edges require you to visit the pro shop more often.

I've tried less sharp edges. Sometimes I use them as an exercise, to create proper weight alignment - since you need to balance more carefully to avoid skidding when your edges aren't sharp. But overall, I like the controlled feel they give me.

I'm not sure I can learn to spin well. But maybe it would be worth trying duller edges.

[marc]

Bonjour,
avec un peu d'entrainement, ce week end,  j'arrive à pas mal centrer les cares et obtenir des cares qui taillent.
Mais avec ma roue de 8' j'ai fait un creux derriere le pick.
Faut que je trouve une solution afin d'éviter cela avec une meule de 8'.
Même si je pense que techniquement cela va être compliqué, avec expérience dans mon domaine (jardinier) je pense pouvoir trouver une solution, faut jamais dire jamais!
Mais faut que la trouve.
Je vais voir si la pièce jointe parait dans ce message et si ça fonctionne je vous montrerais d'autre photos.

[marc]

oups excuse me,
With a little practice, this weekend, I manage to center the cares a lot and get cares that cut.
But with my 8' wheel I made a hollow behind the pick.
I have to find a solution to avoid this with an 8' grinding wheel.
Even if I think technically it will be complicated, with experience in my field (gardener) I think I can find a solution, never say never!
But you have to find it.
I'll see if the attachment appears in this message and if it works I'll show you other photos.
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[supersharp]

Marc—your photo is attached to the message and is a good illustration of the disadvantage of the large diameter wheel. I have no experience with a large wheel, so I can't help with that part of the problem. 

Even with a smaller wheel, it is possible to create a distorted shape at the front of the blade. It takes very careful control to gently ease the blade onto the wheel while keeping it moving. Keep practicing and you will find a technique that works for you. I find that I get the best control when I use both hands and keep some compressive pressure between the two hands, even though they are both moving the same direction.  Basically, one hand is moving the skate and the other hand is restraining the movement to add control.

I'm not sure that makes sense, particularly with some translation needed, and my limited French from secondary school is stored at the back of my brain under a mountain of more recent information...
but I think in your post, autocorrect might be changing "les carres" (edges) to "les cares" which gets translated as "cares" which is more like "soin", to care for something.  It makes sense if it is les carres and gets translated as "I manage to center the edges and get edges that cut".

Even with the little translation glitches, it's pretty amazing that we can communicate across the globe about these topics.  Bill might be able to help you, since his Wissota sharpener has a larger wheel than my IE.

[Kaitsu]

Picture what Marc shared is what I sketched him on today morning in the Whatsup. I tried to warn him about this issue earlier. As the communication with Google translator is a bit challenging,  I am not sure if he did understand what I did tried to explain him. My English is not either 100% perfect, but it seems that people anyhow understands what I try to explain.

This sharpening mistake happens so easily with large wheel machines, especially if you are beginner. I can see such a blades from every now and then.  Due the toe picks you cannot tilt the skate carriage like in hockeys (see attached picture). This lead to situation where sharpening is started like I sketched to another picture. First you try to get as close to toe picks as possible. When you start to see sparks, you start to make your pass-trough. When skate carriage is moving against the table, you have some friction which makes situation even worst. Third issue is that large wheel machines has higher cutting speed, which means that it removes material faster than example Incredible edger.

With large wheel machines sharpening should be started so that you are already making your pass-tough stroke before wheel is even in contact to the blade. Other ways you create hump behind the toe pick sooner than you even realize it. This is the reason why I changed large wheel machine to small wheel machine and I will never go back to large wheel even it has own benefits. Starting the grinding behind the toe picks with small wheel diameter is 100 times easier than with large wheel. You will learn this after you have used large wheel machine and jump to small wheel machine. Used wheel on Wissota is not enough small to get help on to this issue remarkably. I have paid personally from this lessons and this is the reason why I try to warn people about the risks of large wheel machines. People are anyhow making their own choices what machine they buy. If you like more table top machines, Blademaster does have also machine with 3" wheel. Unfortunately these two are the only serial production sharpeners what I know to have 3" wheel.

When you have ones created hump (concave area), you can perhaps imagine which wheel has then wider contact area when it lays against the concave area and what that means when the wheel is rotating. Situation is getting worst and worst in every pass-trough. Feel free to believe me or not.

ps. I have updated my leveling instruction again by adding pictures from the skates where I changed ROH from 5/16" to 7/16.

[Bill_S]

I agree that if you advance your blade into the wheel before starting the cutting motion, you will develop a divot with any rotating wheel.

I created these two animated GIF files that might show the wrong way vs. the correct way to advance the blade into the wheel to begin the cut. A light touch will mitigate the cutting rate, so never press hard into the wheel. Once the sharpening pass is started, never stop moving until it is finished. Maintain a constant speed throughout the cutting pass.

Here's the wrong way to advance a blade into the grinding wheel, and it is another way of demonstrating the "1, 2" arrows in the photo provided by Kiatsu. Don't do this, or you WILL grind a divot into the blade!




Here is the correct way to advance a blade into contact with the grinding wheel.



Note that the correct way begins the motion carried throughout the rest of the pass. The contact is made at a tangent to the curve of the blade. It will help provide a gentle start to the cut.

[marc]

kaitsu,
non, j'ai tout lu et tout compris, malgés nos différents langages et les quelques erreurs de traductions (mais en relisant on arrive à bien comprendre).
Cette lame est une lame d'essais, et je savais que j'arriverai à ce mauvais résultat! Mais j'essais de comprendre en me trompant, et je comprend très bien techniquement qu'il faut une machine 3'.
Mais une 3' est très compliqué à trouver en France (et les pièces détachées n'en parlons pas!) et pas trop chère.
Il n'y aurait que la Blademaster 3' peut être, mais je ne pouvais pas prendre le risque d'acheter neuf sans savoir si  "I manage to center the edges and get edges that cut".
Il faut encore que je m'entraine à faire cela, et que j'essaye de trouver une solution pour enlever cette bosse derrière le pick. (avec une wheel perpendiculaire à la lame).
Et je crois vraiment en toute vos paroles, croyais moi, et j'ai de la chance de vous avoir (et quelques autres sur ce forum) pour m'encourager '( car dans mon petit club on me prend un peu pour un fou ), mais tout le monde attends après moi (et je vous reprécise que mon métier est jardinier).
Jai appris dans mon entreprise de jardinier depuis  20 ans à faire des petites modifications des outils tel que tailles haies, tronçonneuse, broyeurs afin de  les rendre plus performantes, et j'ai déjà en tête quelques idées de conceptions d'une machine 3' mais cela prendrais beaucoup , beaucoup de temps, mais faut trouver le temps, alors pour le moment je m'entraine avec ce que j'ai trouvé.
Comme déjà j'ai modifié le porte patin sh2000 blademaster et j'ai un peu copié le wissota car le réglage d'origine était vraiment nul pour centrer, et ce soir c'était déjà mieux.

[marc]

kaitsu,
no, I have read everything and understood everything, despite our different languages ​​and the few translation errors (but by re-reading we manage to understand).
This blade is a trial blade, and I knew I would come up with this bad result! But I try to understand by making a mistake, and I understand very well technically that you need a 3' machine.
But a 3' is very difficult to find in France (and the spare parts don't talk about it!) and not too expensive.
There might only be the Blademaster 3', but I couldn't take the risk of buying new without knowing if "I manage to center the edges and get edges that cut".
I still have to train myself to do this, and try to find a solution to remove this bump behind the pick. (with a wheel perpendicular to the blade).
And I really believe in all your words, believed me, and I'm lucky to have you (and a few others on this forum) to encourage me '(because in my little club they think I'm a bit crazy) , but everyone is waiting for me (and I repeat that my job is a gardener).
I learned in my gardening business for 20 years to make small modifications to tools such as hedge trimmers, chainsaws, wood chipper in order to make them more efficient, and I already have in mind some design ideas for a 3' machine but it would take a lot, a lot of time, but you have to find the time, so for now I'm training with what I found.
As I have already modified the sh2000 blademaster shoe holder and I copied the wissota a little because the original setting was really bad for centering, and this evening it was already better.