Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota

[tstop4me]

If you can inexpensively produce a set of chassis, each with a separate gap value, that would avoid the complexity of a design with an adjustable gap.

Even if the material of the chassis is soft enough that the chassis itself does not scratch polished chrome (or stainless) surfaces, scratches will be inevitable (in the absence of tape or other protective coating on the polished surfaces).  As you perform the hand grinding, particles of abrasive or steel will come loose and fall in between the chassis and polished surfaces and cause scratches.

[Bill_S]

Just call the scratches an "extended chrome relief" feature. 

BTW, it IS possible to get uneven edges when using a ProFiler, but it's obvious that there's an upper limit on how much error there can be. The tool is mostly guided on the blade within a narrow range. Frankly, I could never detect the slightly uneven edges produced by a hasty ProFiler sharpening although it could be measured with the very sensitive tools I own.

[Kaitsu]

BTW, I'm not sure the Pro-Filer patents are still in force. How would one figure that out? 

By Googling...https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5431597.html

What I know, patent protection is granted for a limited period, generally 20 years from the filing date of the application.

[Kaitsu]

Today I was struggling a bit with my 3D printer, but I managed still to make my own honing cylinder. Basically I can choose any grit. Same idea could basically used also in original Profiler if someone wants to have new honing cylinder and they cannot be found from the markets anymore....or if you want some special coarseness.

[Bill_S]

Excellent!

That's a very clever sandpaper holder for the abrasive "stone". Great job!

[Query]

Just a though: if Blademaster's variant on the Pro-Filer (which they don't seem to call Pro-Filer) has no extensions, just a gap, does that make it harder to align, because the gap isn't as high as the gap+extension? But does it also mean that the tool could sharpen some current generation Matrix and Paramount blades that Pro-Filer might have trouble with?

Even if the material of the chassis is soft enough that the chassis itself does not scratch polished chrome (or stainless) surfaces, scratches will be inevitable (in the absence of tape or other protective coating on the polished surfaces).  As you perform the hand grinding, particles of abrasive or steel will come loose and fall in between the chassis and polished surfaces and cause scratches.

Not if the tool is UNDER the blade. E.g., if you hold the tool with a vice, as I think Bill_S once suggested, or maybe in your hand, though holding it underneath with my hand makes it a little harder to center it.

As I've said before, I have no trained tool skills, but have to learn from my mistakes. So I have indeed made some scratches. I had to learn to lubricate the sides of the blade, by wetting them - which helps.

The problem is, I like to see what I am doing (so I only bump into the toe pick), so I do tend to hold the tool ABOVE the blade. So I have have some minor scratches.

Just call the scratches an "extended chrome relief" feature. 

Great idea! Claim the scratches help orient and redirect the blade, or something else vaguely plausible.

The sanding drum that Kaitsu made looks a bit challenging to make - you might need a pretty high accuracy 3D printer. There are commercially available sanding drums, and sanding sleeves that fit them. I wonder if any of them could do the job.

[Query]

The holder is harder. I still wonder if one could cut a square board, drill a hole in the center, then cut a gap at right angles, using woodworking tools. I don't have the right tools or skills to do this with high accuracy, but maybe someone with good woodshop tools could do it, to the .01" accuracy of Bill's drawings.

Of course, the wood would eventually wear out. AFAICT, the reason wood is easy to work is precisely because it sheers off easily. One might need to make replacements, if you use it a lot.

Is .01 accuracy good enough to create reasonably even edges?

There is also the Blade Barber:

https://www.bladebarber.ca/

II tried a few cheap skate sharpening tools that were made so poorly, they did an awful job. Did you try this one? Wow would one enforce the ROH - or will it gradually flatten the hollow?

Kaitsu, you've already got real professional grade sharpening tools. So is making your own hand tool just a fun challenge for you?

[tstop4me]

Just a though: if Blademaster's variant on the Pro-Filer (which they don't seem to call Pro-Filer) has no extensions, just a gap, does that make it harder to align, because the gap isn't as high as the gap+extension? But does it also mean that the tool could sharpen some current generation Matrix and Paramount blades that Pro-Filer might have trouble with?

* The Blademaster website calls their product a "DIAMOND PROFILER".  But if you click on the photo of the complete kit, the packaging reads "PRO-FILER", and even still bears the "Edge SPECIALTIES" mark.  Don't know whether this is just a transitionary phase or what.

* What we don't know (and it's difficult to judge from the Blademaster photo) is how deep/high the slot/gap on the current version is compared with how deep/high the total slot/gap (taking into account the main body of the chassis plus the extension rails) of the original version is.

* I have Paramount blades (their Gold Seal version in 440C stainless steel).  When new, the runners are ~6 mm wide.  For the old Pro-Filer to work, I had to file the extension rails off completely. Needs more careful control.  Some versions of the latest intermediate-grade Paramount blades I saw on display have runners ~8 mm wide. Likely easier to handle.  The Matrix blades I saw on display had narrower runners, only ~4 mm wide.  Not sure that provides sufficient guide surfaces if you modified the chassis to accommodate the narrower runners. 

Approximately how wide are your old Matrix I runners?

[tstop4me]

Not if the tool is UNDER the blade. E.g., if you hold the tool with a vice, as I think Bill_S once suggested, or maybe in your hand, though holding it underneath with my hand makes it a little harder to center it.

As I've said before, I have no trained tool skills, but have to learn from my mistakes. So I have indeed made some scratches. I had to learn to lubricate the sides of the blade, by wetting them - which helps.

Holding the blade with the edges down, and pushing up with the sharpener would likely reduce the number of particles that get in between the chassis and polished surfaces, but I don't think it would eliminate them.  Some will still migrate upwards (particularly in the presence of a lubricant film) during operation.  And when you remove the tool from the blade to flip the orientation of the tool, rotate the cylinder, clean the cylinder, switch blades, or end the operation, it'll be difficult to prevent particles from becoming embedded in the walls of the slot eventually:  e.g., particles will tend to accumulate along the edges of the blade; as you remove the tool, the edges of the blade will likely contact the walls of the slot, and particles will be transferred from the edges of the blade to the walls of the slot.

And as you realize, the edges-down configuration is not ideal for viewing and for applying controlled pressure.  Overall awkward configuration for operation.  As I discussed before, I prefer to mount the blades sideways.

At any rate, I value functionality over cosmetics; however, I realize that many figure skaters place a premium on cosmetics.

[Query]

Holding the blade with the edges down, and pushing up with the sharpener would likely reduce the number of particles that get in between the chassis and polished surfaces, but I don't think it would eliminate them...

And maybe it would leave more particles next to the hollow surface - which might matter more.

I guess almost any abrasive process could have problems with scratching. Do you think it is better or worse with powered sharpening tools?

I've seen powered sharpening tools on which the tech failed to clean the filings off the surface on which the side of the blade glides - but that is a correctable error.

Another issue, now that I think of it - I'm not sure the entire 2" length of the abrasive cylinder ("stone") is in contact with the blade - it seems like the rocker curvature would confine it to one short length of contact at a time. Does that mean a shorter tool would do as well?

[tstop4me]

Another issue, now that I think of it - I'm not sure the entire 2" length of the abrasive cylinder ("stone") is in contact with the blade - it seems like the rocker curvature would confine it to one short length of contact at a time. Does that mean a shorter tool would do as well?

You could get by with a shorter cylinder, but why would you?  Suppose you used a cylinder 1/2" long instead of 2" long.  You would still want a longer chassis to provide better longitudinal guiding and to make it easier to grasp (otherwise add a handle to make it easier to grasp).  The shorter cylinder would initially be cheaper than a longer one, but it would wear out faster (if you operate the existing Pro-Filer properly, you can spread out the wear over nearly the full length of the cylinder).

[Query]

I'm largely unconcerned with cosmetic issues too. A few people on this forum have claimed they can tell they are slower with scratched blade sides, so maybe it isn't just cosmetic. Intuitively, it makes sense, if you consider boats in water, and studded tires on ice - but those are a lot different. Without objective measurements under conditions similar to figure skating, it's hard to tell.

In my case, I'm personally certain that getting stronger would make much more difference than minor scratches.

At the moment, I'm pleased with and used to what Pro-Filers do for me. Refinements are mostly a curiosity issue for me. But it would be very cool if Kaitsu were to offer his 3D printed tools, assuming they work well.

I've also thought about simply pulling an abrasive cylinder against the bottom of the blade, using a stretched cloth, pulled tight with my hands and fingers across the sides of the blade - but suspect that would be slower, and possibly harder to control.

I will later take measurements of the thickness of my old Matrix I blades. Near the bottom of the blades, they were ground a little thinner than the rest of the runner - and in a way that pre-scratched them there - which I don't understand since they were Stainless 440 (440C??) alloy blades. It's hard to tell if any additional scratches I create could possibly matter. But measurements of the old Matrix I blades won't do anyone much good - people bought out Jackson Ultima's remaining stock rather quickly (I think a few weeks or less) after they stopped making them, and it's very hard to find them or the chassis for sale over the Internet.

[Kaitsu]

A few people on this forum have claimed they can tell they are slower with scratched blade sides, so maybe it isn't just cosmetic.

According to my understanding in this thread we have talked about chromed areas scratching, but I might have understood wrongly. If scratches in the chrome affects to the skating, problems is in the mental side. What I mean is that if your focus in in the wrong things, you may have problems.

Typically, blades are thinner from the areas where chrome has ground off. If so, at least in theory Pro-filer should not scratch the edges you us for skating. In some other thread(s) I have probably claimed that coarse chrome removal grinding affects to the skating. If I may correct my possible statement, I cannot tell how much that affect to the skating, but it is for sure that the edge is not perfect if one side of the edge is mirror finished and another side has grinding with deep scratches. If you sharpen your knife, you don't use 3000 grit whetstones for one side and 40 grit stone for other side. Attached picture shows what is the problem, but I do not expect all to understand the point.

Printed tool works better than any other hand sharpening tools I have tested so far. Is it as good as original, that I cannot know as I have never tried Profiler. At least I am able to choose corseness and try polish power grinded hollow.

[AlbaNY]

Query, your mention of cloth has made me think about stretching some jersey knit rag cloth inside the Profiler to minimise scratches.  Or another idea would be to cut pieces of index card or something to insert.  This could be switched out each time and not build up grit? 

[tstop4me]

I'm largely unconcerned with cosmetic issues too. A few people on this forum have claimed they can tell they are slower with scratched blade sides, so maybe it isn't just cosmetic. Intuitively, it makes sense, if you consider boats in water, and studded tires on ice - but those are a lot different. Without objective measurements under conditions similar to figure skating, it's hard to tell.

In my case, I'm personally certain that getting stronger would make much more difference than minor scratches.

To emphasize Kaitsu's response in Reply #37, why would scratches on surfaces that do not contact the ice at all cause slower glides?   Intuitively, it doesn't make sense at all (to me).   Are you concerned about some higher-order aerodynamic effects?

[tstop4me]

I will later take measurements of the thickness of my old Matrix I blades. Near the bottom of the blades, they were ground a little thinner than the rest of the runner - and in a way that pre-scratched them there - which I don't understand since they were Stainless 440 (440C??) alloy blades. It's hard to tell if any additional scratches I create could possibly matter. But measurements of the old Matrix I blades won't do anyone much good - people bought out Jackson Ultima's remaining stock rather quickly (I think a few weeks or less) after they stopped making them, and it's very hard to find them or the chassis for sale over the Internet.

I realize that the Matrix I blades have been discontinued many years now.  My question concerns the width, not the thickness, of the runner. To avoid ambiguity, what I mean by the width is shown in the attached pix (Paramount blade in this instance).  If you are able to use the Pro-Filer as is, the width of the Matrix I runner must be much greater than the width of the current Matrix runners; so I'm curious as to what it is.  The width will likely vary along the length of the blade.  A typical value near the middle will do.  Thanks.

[Query]

Oh. You mean what I think of as the height of the exposed portion of the runner...

In other words, the height (vertical dimension when blade is placed on the ice) of the portion of the runner that has to fit in the gap.

I've got to dig my calipers out of storage.

[tstop4me]

No need for calipers.  A ruler will do.  Thanks.

[Query]

No need for calipers.  A ruler will do.  Thanks.

With my current blades ("Supremes" - freestyle blades) installed, there is about 1/8" height of thinly ground blade at the bottom (in the orientation we skate in; also maybe it was lightly larger when I started using the blades)), followed by about 1/8" indented  portion (Why? I assume it is decorative, or to save a few grams, but if the Pro-Filer like tool didn't have a deep enough gap, it would matter.), followed by a variable width of parallel sided runner, for a total (including the two 1/8" heights) of about 1/2" near the stanchions, to .75" at the center.


Hey, I just figured something out about the new replaceable runner Matrix RXS blades.

I already knew they made each chassis have one particular non-replaceable toe pick - which means you need a different chassis for each type of blade - whereas the older designs had the same chassis for all runners. The toe picks were included in the runners, as with most blades.

But that non-replaceable toe pick also means you wouldn't want to trim the toe pick when the blade starts to wear down. So you maybe  have to replace runners more often...

Interestingly, the RXS ad says you don't need a special blade holder - because the runners fit all machines. But to take advantage of that, I guess you'd have to remove the runner every time you sharpened it. And it looks like they still attach with those stupid bolts that use the tiny hex inset, that will probably wear out if you do that a lot.

[tstop4me]

Query, thanks for the info on the Matrix I.

[Query]

My old Matrix I Dance blades don't have the same measurements as my Matrix 1 Supreme runners. They are substantially less tall, and they lack the indented portion - the sides of the Dance runners are parallel. Hard to take accurate measurements without mounting them - which I don't want to do, because it wears out the hex key holes in those soft bolts. Anyway, all my runners are at least somewhat used, so the measurements don't reflect what they were like new.

I also notice the Supreme runners (of which I only have one pair) have had enough metal removed that they will soon be hard to sharpen with my Pro-Filer, because of that indented portion, which will probably make them flop around - unless I add tape to create a tighter fit at the bottom, so the top doesn't matter. Which, as we've discussed before is a bit of a hassle and a challenge to do right, so that the edges are even.

[Query]

According to my understanding in this thread we have talked about chromed areas scratching, but I might have understood wrongly.

No, not the chrome plated area, unless you wear down your blades a lot more than most people do before replacing them. Only the part of the blade that touches the ice matters.

By the time the chrome plate touches, you have had to trim off so much of the toe pick, that it's forward/back location has changed significantly. Of course at that point you could remount the blades a bit forwards or back, but that effectively changes the length of the blade, significantly too. And you are less high off the ice, so it changes that characteristic of the blades too. I like to extend blade life as much as I reasonably can, but long before that time I think it makes sense to just replace the blades.

I also believe that if you did keep sharpening worn blades to the point the part of the sides of the blade that touches the ice are chrome plated, you wouldn't get very good edges, because the Chrome isn't hard, and would flake off - but tstop4me suggested that might be wrong.

Have you played more with your 3D printed sharpening tool? how does it compare in edge quality to your powered sharpening machines?

I guess you had to design it for one grit and brand sandpaper, since different grits and brands have different thicknesses.

[Query]

Revised wooden version:

1. Take a 2x2 board (exact size not important), cut it to the desired tool length.
2. Use a bench circular saw, jig saw, or band saw, that has a fence accurately parallel to the blade. Set blade to be perpendicular to table. (A handheld jig saw with a fence or strip cutting attachment might work, would be less accurate.) Recut the sides and ends of the board to be perpendicular to each other.
3. Mark the center of the board on one of the ends. (The center is at the intersection of the two diagonals.)
4. Use a compass to draw a circle about that center with the desired ROH radius on that end.
5. Find the middle of one of the sides of the end, and draw a line with a pencil from it to the center, and to the other side.
6. Cut a gap centered on that line, as accurately as you can, from one side to the circle or a bit further. Use the fence (or strip cutting attachment) to keep cut straight. The blade should be slightly wider than the skating blade - which might eliminate the possibility of using a jig saw or band saw, if it isn't wide enough.

[Query]

7. Recut the gap side so the gap is a little less high than the exposed height of the blade runner.
8. Use a hole saw with the ROH radius to cut out that circle, using a drill press with a vice to hold the block in place. The cut hole will be your sanding drum. It will fit the hole somewhat loosely, to make our tool.
8.5 Recut the other sides so the tool isn't too large.
9. On the side opposite that gap, near the center length use a self tapping screw to create a thread (or: can a tap and die kit cut wood?) deep enough to go just past the circle. Replace the screw with a bolt with the same thread. Use it to press the sanding drum against the side of the hole next to the gap, locking the sandpaper in place while you use the tool.
10. Cut sandpaper, loosen the bolt, and insert sandpaper. It should be long enough to extend most of the way to either side of the bolt. If it doesn't extend past the hole, the sanding drum won't center accurately on the hole. Tighten the bolt.
11. Cut tape that is a bit wider than the gap is high, to a length longer than the tool is long. I use Scotch tape on my Pro-filer. Pull tape taut, insert into the gap, touching the sanding drum so it aligns parallel, and pulled against the side of the gap to make it stick. Stick the extra tape to the ends and sides of the tool. Repeat on the other side of the gap. Briefly insert the blade and push against the tape hard on each side, to make it stick better. Add more layers until the blade slides through snugly.
12. Re-insert sanding drum and sandpaper, tighten the bolt, and sharpen a cheap discarded blade, like on the old skates that ice rinks throw away. The inside edge will be longer than the outside edge, or vice versa, because the gap probably isn't exactly centered on the hole.
13. So: Discard the tape and retape, using more layers to one side, iterating step 10 & 11 until it is properly centered.

Thoughts, ideas for improvement?

[Kaitsu]

Thoughts, ideas for improvement?

Yes, I have a lot of thoughts. Please implement this ingenious plan of yours and come back afterwards to tell us how your wooden tool works and if you got within the 0.01 tolerance you mentioned earlier.

In the meantime, I'm going to the eye doctor. I did grind the blades with the tool I printed. Enthusiastic about the given tips, I printed a jig that holds the printed sharpener in place, with the groove facing downwards. I lie on the floor with a skate in my hand and move skate against the pro-filer above me. It was a bit difficult. The problem was that my eyes are now full of steel dust and I can't see if the blades were scratched and if the scratches were on the mounting screws or which skates I even sharpened.

When my eyes are recovered, I have planned to print Profiler type of sharpener which has same profile as the blade what I am sharpening. Means it has same lenght as the blade I am sharpening. I can tune the profiler so that I can do 3 or 4 sweet spots and many other cool things. Unfortunately I cannot describe how it works, but its going to be revolutionary.