Sharpening Stainless Steel blades / sharpening woes

[Query]

You can buy a set of el-cheapo radius gauges in the $20 - $25 range (typically 1/2" max; you'll need extras for larger sizes).  These are not hardened and precision ground like the high-grade sets used by machinists in a good shop, but adequate for infrequent use as a blade checker.  In my area, that's the cost of one sharpening.

You can go a little cheaper - here is $11.77.

I found one once for $4 or $5 - but cheap SAE unit radius gauges have become less common.

Is there really a significant ROH difference on the wheel going between just two blades? Even the most expert skate techs I've watched did not redress the wheel between the members of a pair of skates. Many skate techs sharpen a batch of dozen or more pairs with one dressing. It's one of the ways shops economize on time and wheel lifetime.

The original poster can probably get what is desired (slightly less sticky blades) simply by slightly dulling the edges with a flat stone, like this one. They are available very cheap. All this stuff about measuring ROH, and fancy edge shaping, is likely much more than she needs. I should have stopped there, and not gotten into the issue of sharpening or measuring her own blades. I apologize for bringing the issue up, when what she wants is probably so simple. 

She could maybe even make do with the type that you sometimes find in dollar stores, though they tend to be a bit coarse. It is conceivable she could dull the blade a bit with very fine sandpaper, though I've not tried it.

[LunarSkater]

Is there really a significant ROH difference on the wheel going between just two blades? Even the most expert skate techs I've watched did not redress the wheel between the members of a pair of skates. Many skate techs sharpen a batch of dozen or more pairs with one dressing. It's one of the ways shops economize on time and wheel lifetime.

It's not an ROH difference, it's a level difference. Given how exact sharpening is, taking a skate on and off the holder can affect how 'square' the blade is in relation to the wheel. My tech always checks the level of the blade to the wheel before starting the sharpening so as not to waste metal and time spent correcting preventable errors.

[Bill_S]

^^^ This ^^^

If you want perfectly level edges, you have to treat each blade separately. Without it, you'll probably be OK with slight levelness variations, but perfection demands individual adjustment.

I swear that if I un-clamp a blade, then clamp the same blade again immediately for another pass, I will get a slight difference.

How much variation from level edges a skater can tolerate is the big question. I've seen a skater do wonderful things on these horrible edges. You don't even need a straight edge to see the problem here.

[click to enlarge]

[tstop4me]

You can go a little cheaper - here is $11.77.

I found one once for $4 or $5 - but cheap SAE unit radius gauges have become less common.

If you can get a set of radius gauges for the same cost, or substantially less than the cost, of a single sharpening, why would anyone bother trying to make their own gauges?

The original poster can probably get what is desired (slightly less sticky blades) simply by slightly dulling the edges with a flat stone, like this one. They are available very cheap. All this stuff about measuring ROH, and fancy edge shaping, is likely much more than she needs. I should have stopped there, and not gotten into the issue of sharpening or measuring her own blades. I apologize for bringing the issue up, when what she wants is probably so simple. 

She could maybe even make do with the type that you sometimes find in dollar stores, though they tend to be a bit coarse. It is conceivable she could dull the blade a bit with very fine sandpaper, though I've not tried it.

I'd be careful here.  Too coarse a stone can readily damage edges enough that a trip back to the sharpener would be warranted.  The super-el-cheapo stone you referenced is some generic stone shipped directly from China.  It's listed as "coarse".  It's also not listed as a whetstone, but as a flattening stone for dressing whetstones.  Some of what's written in the listing doesn't make sense (and not a language issue either).  I personally would stay away from it.

Stone manufacturers used to specify grit sizes, but that seems to be rare these days.  Terms like, "coarse", "medium", and "fine" are not standardized and vary a lot among different suppliers.  If you have no experience with a specific stone, it's best to go to a hardware or sporting goods store to feel them.  If that's not viable these days, and you need to order online on good faith alone, here's a good stone for deburring skate blades:  (https://www.nortonabrasives.com/en-us/product/india-ao-single-grit-benchstone), Norton India Aluminum Oxide (AO) Benchstone, Fine Grit, 4" X 1" X 1/4", Subshape FB14, Norton Product Code 61463685570.  Prices have gone up some recently due to supply chain disruptions (and, I think, tariff increases; they're now made in Mexico, not the US).  Amazon 3rd-party vendors now sell it for ~$12.  [ETA:  I just checked the last time I bought one.  In 2015, I bought a pack of 5 for $33 (cheaper by the pack); single unit price was ~$8 or $9, I think.  Some coaches (including mine) were interested in deburring stones, but didn't have a clue what to get.  I bought a pack of 5, gave 3 away as freebies, and kept 2 for myself.]

[tstop4me]

I mean, it's true that a deeper grind (7/16 is deeper than 1/2) will give your blades more bite (which might or might not also be described as sticking) because there's more edge to be pushed into the ice. But that's an issue you'd notice skating on the different grinds, you shouldn't see a difference if it's always sharpened to 7/16.

It's true that the depth of hollow (DOH) increases as the radius of hollow (ROH) decreases:  the DOH for 7/16" ROH is greater than the DOH for 1/2" ROH.  But the extra bite is due principally to the smaller included angle of the edge when you reduce the ROH.  Unless the ice is extremely mushy, you never dig the blade deep enough for the bottom of the hollow to contact the ice surface.  That's why, when skating on a single edge, you see a single thin tracing (|); and when skating on a flat (two edges), you see a double thin tracing (||).  You typically won't see one thick tracing (|), indicating you've bottomed out.

[Query]

You are right. I failed to check how fine that stone was.

It may be less common to list grit, but I see about 8000 entries on eBay where the grit of a sharpening stone is listed.

I generally use a 5000 grit flat stone to adjust the burr, maybe more fine than is needed. I think I paid about $10 for it, but it was probably overkill - I think a 2000 or 3000 grit stone would have been good enough. Yet during the period when I wanted a less sharp blade, so I could walk off ice on rubber mats without bending the edge, the 5000 grit stone did that job well too. Maybe it took an extra stroke or two to do the job, but that wasn't a big deal, and I liked the control.

Of course, it is possible that going to 1/2" ROH would make her happy too. And it might be marginally faster.

Can someone explain to me how a figure skating blade can be "too sticky"? AFAICT, no normal edge with a 7/16" ROH digs deep enough to slow down the glide much, and I don't ever want it to skid sideways, except on stops, where I tilt the edge to create the skid. And the advantages of a very sharp blade when the surface is rough are overwhelming.

Yet a lot of figure skaters make similar complaints about newly sharpened blades, from some skate techs. Is there a reason they want to skid sideways?

[Christy]

So after the last skating session, and before my original post, the sharpener had another attempt at sharpening my blades. That's 4 sharpenings to date, and consistency is most definitely an issue! For each sharpening I requested 7/16ths, and provided my old blades so they could be copied.

Sharpening 1
I was able to stroke reasonably but when I tried any moves such as 3 turns I was skidding really badly. It was quite scary. I perservered for 2 hours but the problems remained.

Sharpening 2
Sharpener suggests trying 1/2, which I said I hadn't like previously, so he said between 7/16ths and 1/2. Tried that and, whilst not as smooth as original sharpener, I was able to skate without skidding.

Sharpening 3
Again asked for 7/16ths and this time I was sticking to the ice. Could barely move forward when trying to stroke, or do anything. Gave up after an hour, put my old skates on and was absolutely fine.

Sharpening 4
Sharpener again says try 1/2 (must be his preferred sharpening?) so after discussion we decide to try between 7/16ths and 1/2 again. This was the sharpening I finally got to try today. Again nowhere near as good as my original sharpener but definitely felt better. Initially stroking felt a tiny bit sticky but nothing like the previous sharpening so perservered and after about 5 circuits I was finally able to skate "normally".

I've checked the blades since today's session and can't find any burrs, however I do think they could be the problem as others who use that sharpener have said they usually need a session or two to get used to their blades after each sharpening. So, definitely not consistent and nowhere near as good as my original sharpener, but at least for now I have something usable.

What's interesting is that the "same" sharpening (7/16ths) caused skidding first time round and sticking to the ice the second. Ice condition was a bit softer for the first sharpening, when I was skidding, but both times I was fine when I swapped back to my old blades.

[Query]

Even when I had very bad skate techs sharpen my blades, doing things like making one edge so much longer that the skate, with no foot in it, would stand at angle on a table, I never had any blade "stick", in the sense of failing to glide forward, except to some extent on partially melted outdoor ice, which was basically slush, so the blade sunk into the slush. It's hard for me to imagine that happening on even reasonably hard ice.

If Christy means that her gliding foot can't glide forwards, has anyone else here ever had that situation happen, and knows what caused it?

What exactly do you mean by "sticky"?

Do you mean that something tends to prevent you from lifting the skate, or just that it can't glide forwards?

When you say forward stroking, are you using the basic skating technique where one foot pushes, and stands still relative to the ice (in that sense the pushing foot DOES stick), and the other, at approximately a right angle, or at least somewhat turned out from the other foot, glides, or are you talking about the fancy method of pushing alternately against the outside edge hard while gliding on one foot, or something else?

If the former, which foot "sticks" - the the pushing foot or the gliding foot?

It is hard for me to imagine any kind of edge that would cause the gliding foot to have trouble moving forwards - unless he made a really, really long foil edge, that dug really, rally deep into the ice - like maybe 1/4" - 1/2". But not even thosee speed skaters who work hard to create a really long foil edge (not that long, but some of them sharpen until they feel a long lip or burr to the side, then polish it and bend it to the bottom) find that - in fact, such blades are extremely fast, because the foil lets the pushing foot push harder. (Complicated by the fact that the first strokes, for a speed skater, are often running strides or leaps, and they then gradually bring in the glide ones they attain some speed.)

It might stick if he changed the blade shape so much that your toe pick is digging in, or the blade contains a new sharp corner that is digging in. That would represent such a degree of incompetence that even beginner hockey players would flee him, and there is no way anyone else would be happy with his edges.

(It is possible, by the way, that he is inconsistent because he is trying to respond to your complaints. That's what a good skate tech does.)

[Christy]

Even when I had very bad skate techs sharpen my blades, doing things like making one edge so much longer that the skate, with no foot in it, would stand at angle on a table, I never had any blade "stick", in the sense of failing to glide forward, except to some extent on partially melted outdoor ice, which was basically slush, so the blade sunk into the slush. It's hard for me to imagine that happening on even reasonably hard ice.

If Christy means that her gliding foot can't glide forwards, has anyone else here ever had that situation happen, and knows what caused it?

What exactly do you mean by "sticky"?

Do you mean that something tends to prevent you from lifting the skate, or just that it can't glide forwards?

When you say forward stroking, are you using the basic skating technique where one foot pushes, and stands still relative to the ice (in that sense the pushing foot DOES stick), and the other, at approximately a right angle, or at least somewhat turned out from the other foot, glides, or are you talking about the fancy method of pushing alternately against the outside edge hard while gliding on one foot, or something else?

If the former, which foot "sticks" - the the pushing foot or the gliding foot?

It might stick if he changed the blade shape so much that your toe pick is digging in, or the blade contains a new sharp corner that is digging in. That would represent such a degree of incompetence that even beginner hockey players would flee him, and there is no way anyone else would be happy with his edges.

By sticky I mean that I couldn't glide forward. No issue with lifting the pushing foot off the ice. I tried stroking and also inside and outside edges on both feet and the blades just seemed to be stuck to the ice. It refused to glide. I'm sure there is a better description, but basically it felt like I was trying to skate through treacle and feeling a lot of resistance.

(It is possible, by the way, that he is inconsistent because he is trying to respond to your complaints. That's what a good skate tech does.)

When I said he was inconsistent I was referring to the fact that the first time I asked him to do a 7/16ths ROH I was skidding and the second time I was sticking, so very different results, and both times he confirmed he'd done a 7/16ths ROH. Have to say it's very confusing. I really don't like 1/2 but at the moment I'm thinking I'll just go with that next time and try to adapt. I'm hoping it's not forever!!

[Query]

When I said he was inconsistent I was referring to the fact that the first time I asked him to do a 7/16ths ROH I was skidding and the second time I was sticking, so very different results, and both times he confirmed he'd done a 7/16ths ROH. Have to say it's very confusing.

That is not confusing at all - as we have said, ROH is not the only thing affecting sharpness. And presumably you complained after the first time, so he altered the way he sharpened it. As he should have.

The main question is: What is stopping the glide?

1. Is your toepick touching the ice?

2. Is there a corner (a sudden change of direction along the blade), that you can feel, behind the toe pick, that digs into the ice?

3. Is some part of the blade sinking deep into the ice?

4. Is the bottom or side surface of the blade extremely rough, like sandpaper, or have any obvious projections sticking out?

5. Is the ice super-soft, i.e., slush, so that the entire blade sinks into the slush, or touches dirt or other non-slippery surface or substance?

I can't think of anything else that would stop the glide - perhaps someone else can? That simply makes no sense.

You said the blade isn't like that anymore - but can you remember? Or ask someone else with the same skate tech who has had the same problem to check.

[tstop4me]

Christy, when your blade "sticks", is it always when you are skating on the inside edge, the outside edge, or on a flat (both inside and outside edges)?  On some combo of the above?  Any difference between left and right blades?   How about any differences between front, center, and rear of the blades (left and right)?  Or is behavior inconsistent?

[Christy]

That is not confusing at all - as we have said, ROH is not the only thing affecting sharpness. And presumably you complained after the first time, so he altered the way he sharpened it. As he should have.

First time he sharpened the blades I was skidding, second time was OK, third time I was sticking, fourth time is OK. Each time I asked for the same ROH and he used the same machine, hence why I'm confused

The main question is: What is stopping the glide?

1. Is your toepick touching the ice?

2. Is there a corner (a sudden change of direction along the blade), that you can feel, behind the toe pick, that digs into the ice?

3. Is some part of the blade sinking deep into the ice?

4. Is the bottom or side surface of the blade extremely rough, like sandpaper, or have any obvious projections sticking out?

5. Is the ice super-soft, i.e., slush, so that the entire blade sinks into the slush, or touches dirt or other non-slippery surface or substance?

I can't think of anything else that would stop the glide - perhaps someone else can? That simply makes no sense.

You said the blade isn't like that anymore - but can you remember? Or ask someone else with the same skate tech who has had the same problem to check.

Toe pick definitely not touching the ice and it's not happening in a specific area of the rink.
The ice is not slushy, and when I put my old boots / blades (sharpened by original sharpener) I was able to skate normally so I can't blame the ice.
Looking at the blades I couldn't see anything obvious, but I didn't get a chance to check if the blade felt rough.

[Christy]

Christy, when your blade "sticks", is it always when you are skating on the inside edge, the outside edge, or on a flat (both inside and outside edges)?  On some combo of the above?  Any difference between left and right blades?   How about any differences between front, center, and rear of the blades (left and right)?  Or is behavior inconsistent?

It happened on inside edges, outside edges and flat, both blades, and I'd say it felt like it was the center of the blade that was sticking.

[MCsAngel2]

That just sounds like you've got burrs or gouges. You need to look at your blades very closely (esp when picking them up from sharpening).

[tstop4me]

It happened on inside edges, outside edges and flat, both blades, and I'd say it felt like it was the center of the blade that was sticking.

That just sounds like you've got burrs or gouges. You need to look at your blades very closely (esp when picking them up from sharpening).

This is peculiar, Christy.  I agree with MCsAngel2.  This sounds like the problems you would get from burrs; yet, you said you checked and didn't find any.  If the edges were sufficiently off-level, you would feel a difference between inside and outside edges:  perhaps sticking on one, but OK or skidding on the other.  But that's not the case.  Very perplexing.

[Christy]

This is peculiar, Christy.  I agree with MCsAngel2.  This sounds like the problems you would get from burrs; yet, you said you checked and didn't find any.  If the edges were sufficiently off-level, you would feel a difference between inside and outside edges:  perhaps sticking on one, but OK or skidding on the other.  But that's not the case.  Very perplexing.

To be clear, I can't find any burrs after the fourth sharpening, which seems to be OK, but I didn't get a chance to check for burrs after the third sharpening, which was the one that resulted in me sticking to the ice. I do think it's quite possible there were burrs after that third sharpening given the problems I was having. When I gave him the skates for the fourth attempt at sharpening I did ask if he "finished" the skates after sharpening because that's what my original sharpener always did, so maybe that prompted him to check more for burrs, etc. after the latest sharpening.

I did ask someone else who gets a different type of blade sharpened by that sharpener if they had problems, and they said they found several swipes of the blade on the plastic helped 

[Query]

It's really hard for me to imagine an even slightly competent skate tech leaving a burr so large that it caused your blade to stick! "Even" a hockey player would notice that. Imagine a hockey player sprinting onto the ice. He puts down his blade, tries to rush the rest of his body forward, and immediately falls flat on his face. Not a good image for a hockey player! The hockey player would likely never go back to that skate tech again. Honestly, I don't think you should either.

>>That is not confusing at all - as we have said, ROH is not the only thing affecting sharpness. And presumably you
>>complained after the first time, so he altered the way he sharpened it. As he should have.

>First time he sharpened the blades I was skidding, second time was OK, third time I was sticking, fourth time is OK.
>Each time I asked for the same ROH and he used the same machine, hence why I'm confused

Look at it this way: ROH just determines the included angle between the hollow and the side of the blade. The included angle, for kitchen knives, pocket knives and razors is just the angle between the sides (which is a far smaller angle than the included angle for skates), which is not changed when you sharpen them. Yet they all can be very sharp (e.g., have a very abrupt change in direction at the edge), or very dull (rounded off). So, likewise, you can have the same ROH, sharpened on the same machine, but completely different sharpness.

The ROH and the machine do NOT (mostly) determine that type of sharpness - his sharpening technique determines that. Since (I assume) you complained, he may have altered his sharpening technique, to try to make you happy. But clearly didn't succeed in making you happy.

Perhaps he is just completely incompetent. That's not at all unusual. Most skate techs aren't trained by experts; what training they have is very fast; and there is a huge emphasis placed on sharpening as many blades/hour as possible, to make more money for the shop.

If he can't make you happy, find another skate tech who can.

Or become your own skate tech. Sure, you may make mistakes at first, and it might take you 5 minutes per blade the first time or two, maybe slightly more. But you won't take off as much metal, using hand tools, as he is doing. So your mistakes won't cost you as much as he is. Tools like the Pro-Filer, which includes a flat stone, costs $80 + shipping, less than the cost of even one pair of decent figure skating blades, plus you also save the money you are paying to the skate tech for his incompetent work. Depending on how often you skate, you will save a total of several hundred to several thousand dollars/year, plus the lost ice and lesson time while you deal with unusable blades - could be even more. For you, it sounds like that is an $80 well spent.

(Note: the "7/16 inch" ROH Pro-Filer kit is actually just a relabeled 3/8" kit, unless that has changed. In effect, you must choose 3/8" or 1/2".) You don't need a radius gauge to use the Pro-Filer - the ROH is determined by the radius of the (cylindrical) sharpening stones, which is fixed for a given kit. The Profiler consists of a cylindrical stone in a handle that has a gap in it that hugs the blades as you slide it up and down the blade. Each kit contains two such stones and handles, one with a coarse stone, and one with a fine stone, and a "side stone" which is the flat stone we have talked about.

Besides, if you keep skating on an incompetent's edges, you are likely to hurt yourself. My imaginary hockey player who falls when his blade sticks, has padding and a helmet to protect himself from that fall. You probably don't. If you fall flat on your face, you may require surgery.

[tstop4me]

Or become your own skate tech. Sure, you may make mistakes at first, and it might take you 5 minutes per blade the first time or two, maybe slightly more. But you won't take off as much metal, using hand tools, as he is doing. So your mistakes won't cost you as much as he is. Tools like the Pro-Filer, which includes a flat stone, costs $80 + shipping, less than the cost of even one pair of decent figure skating blades, plus you also save the money you are paying to the skate tech for his incompetent work. Depending on how often you skate, you will save a total of several hundred to several thousand dollars/year, plus the lost ice and lesson time while you deal with unusable blades - could be even more. For you, it sounds like that is an $80 well spent.

(Note: the "7/16 inch" ROH Pro-Filer kit is actually just a relabeled 3/8" kit, unless that has changed. In effect, you must choose 3/8" or 1/2".) You don't need a radius gauge to use the Pro-Filer - the ROH is determined by the radius of the (cylindrical) sharpening stones, which is fixed for a given kit. The Profiler consists of a cylindrical stone in a handle that has a gap in it that hugs the blades as you slide it up and down the blade. Each kit contains two such stones and handles, one with a coarse stone, and one with a fine stone, and a "side stone" which is the flat stone we have talked about.

I believe you have the original Matrix, with the interchangeable runners, and use the Pro-Filer OK with them.  Is that correct, Query?  The OP presumably has a more recent Matrix, with the non-interchangeable runners.  Is that correct, Christy?

Query, do you know whether the Pro-Filer works with the current Matrix?  To work with the Paramounts, I had to modify the chassis (block holding the stone) of the Pro-Filer; because the width of the runner is too small for the Pro-Filer to seat properly:  the chassis of the Pro-Filer hits against the aluminum body (holding the runner) of the Paramount before the stone contacts the edges.  I have no first-hand experience with the Matrix, but I have seen it at a pro shop. Just upon visual inspection, I think the width of the runner of the Matrix is even less than the width of the runner of the Paramount.  The Matrix also has an aluminum body thicker than the runner (though not as thick as that of the Paramount); so I suspect a similar problem could arise with the Matrix as with the Paramount. 

The Pro-Filer can work well under the right scenarios.  But it also is not a cure-all (in particular, it won't work on some blades).  And it too has its own share of problems.  Discussed in other threads; I don't want to go too far off-topic here.  At some point, I even launched a thread dedicated to work-arounds.  Just a word of caution to those who might be contemplating this option:  get a good picture of the pluses/minuses you're getting into (it's not all pluses).

ETA (9/24/2020):  See attached figure (click to enlarge) for clarification of what I mean by width and thickness.  The width of the runner is the distance measured along the side of the runner from the interface (between the body and the runner) to the edge.  The thickness of the body is the distance measured across the sides of the body.  The thickness of the runner (not shown) is the distance measured across the sides of the runner (edge-to-edge).  In the current Matrix, the thickness of the body is greater than the thickness of the runner, and the runner is set into the body; hence, there is a step in thickness at the interface. If the width of the runner is too small, the chassis of the Pro-Filer will hit into the body before the stone is properly seated against the hollow of the runner. That would take another figure to show; and would be best spun off into a separate thread if anyone is interested.  Here I'm just urging caution, in case anyone is contemplating this option.  This is the case with Paramount blades (using also a body+ runner construction, but different in execution details).  I had to modify the chassis of the Pro-Filer.

[Query]

BTW, CHristy, what type of blades do you have? Do you know how much they cost?

On mine too, the runners were too thin for the unmodified Pro-Filer. In addition, Pro-Filer's maker (Edge Specialties) has been somewhat inconsistent in the size and centering of the gap. (Nonetheless, last I knew, you could tell Edge Specialties what gap size you wanted - so if you have precision equipment - a good calipers or micrometer - you can measure the width, increase it slightly (a few thousandths of an inch), and make it snug.

The extra thin runners is why I lined each side of the gap of the holder with tape, to get a snugger fit. (You can instead put tape on each side of the blade where it would touch.) The Pro-Filer set comes with masking tape, but if I remember right, but it was too thick for my blades and tools, so I used Scotch plastic tape.

I also take a few swipes in one direction, take the blades out of the gap, and turn either the skates or the pro-filer around 180 degrees, and take some more, and repeat. It evens out anything, if there is a slight asymmetry (imperfect gap centering), or if something about my technique is asymmetric.

It took me some practice to get the technique right. But think about what she is doing now. When she changed to a shallower ROH, the skate tech doubtless took a fair amount of steel away. A few more experiments like that, and she may as well buy new blades.

AFAIK, none of the Matrix blades have the type of thickness modulation that makes sharpening with Pro-Filers more difficult.

BTW, don't order the hockey kit - order the figure skating kit. Hockey blades are much thinner than figure blades.

One thing the Pro-FIler is not useful for - changing ROH. You would mostly wear down the coarse stone (I did that once - I told you I made initial mistakes!), and spend a lot of time doing it. So she would need to pick an ROH, and get the commercial tech to grind it.

I think it would be worth it for her to try. Because she is letting the dubious skate tech destroy her blades, which likely cost more than a Pro-FIler set, and is losing ice and lesson time, so she is probably spending much more money using him. I find it hard to imagine a tech so bad that her blades would stick. Sure - she could grind off the burrs, if that is the only problem - but anyone that bad is almost certainly messing up other things too. Rather than her trying to teach the tech how to sharpen blades right, on a machine that takes off a lot of metal if you do it wrong, she should just do it herself, on a tool that takes off less. It would be hard to do worse than he has done.

BTW, Christy, if you want a cheap and dirty way to try sharpening yourself, and the skate tech has gone all the way to 1/2" ROH, you could use the Berghman skate sharpeners:

  https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=berghman+skate+sharpener&_sacat=0&_sop=15

They are cheaper - on the order of $5 to $10, maybe $15 if you want a slightly more recent one. The stones that come with them aren't great - they are old and crumbly, and too coarse grained to get extremely sharp blades, though you might find them sharp enough. In every other respect, these old tools were actually better than Pro-FIlers. They had adjustable gap size, so would fit your blades (though I would still use tape so as not to scratch the blades); they let you move the stone right up to the edge of the tool, which gives you better control, especially near the toe pick (but tape the toe pick so you don't accidentally trim it); and it only takes a few seconds to replace the stones. They used to be considered serious professional grade sharpening tools - but then people started making powered sharpening machines that let skate techs sharpen more blades/hour, so Berghman went out of business. If you are reasonably happy with the results, but want them even sharper, replace the stones (abrasive cylinders) with ones of finer grain, made with modern materials - you could even use the replacement stones that Edge Specialties sells for use with Pro-FIlers, though there are cheaper sources.

[tstop4me]

BTW, CHristy, what type of blades do you have? Do you know how much they cost?

On mine too, the runners were too thin for the unmodified Pro-Filer. In addition, Pro-Filer's maker (Edge Specialties) has been somewhat inconsistent in the size and centering of the gap. (Nonetheless, last I knew, you could tell Edge Specialties what gap size you wanted - so if you have precision equipment - a good calipers or micrometer - you can measure the width, increase it slightly (a few thousandths of an inch), and make it snug.

....
AFAIK, none of the Matrix blades have the type of thickness modulation that makes sharpening with Pro-Filers more difficult.
....

<<Emphasis added.>> But just to clarify:  You do not have first-hand experience using the Pro-Filer on the current generation of Matrix.  Is that correct? 

ETA:  I've added a figure to my previous post to clarify what I mean by width and thickness.

[Christy]

Some interesting information that I really need to study and understand. At first glance it looks like I need to investigate the Berghman sharpener as it is more flexible to different blade sizes and widths. I would be very nervous, but I suppose I could try to buy some secondhand blades that I could learn with.

My blades are Matrix Elite, around $500. I'd expect them to last at least 12-15 sharpenings with around 50 hours between sharpenings., but so far we're on 4 sharpenings and 40 hours in total so not great 

[Query]

tstop4me, you are right. I have not used the current generation Matrix. From what I can tell they look pretty similar, except for using screws and glue instead of bolts, but I didn't take measurements. And I've only tried the Berghman sharpener on other types of blade, because I don't use 1/2" ROH. Specifically, a lot of ice rinks throw away their old rental skates, and I picked up some of those to practice on. Though thrift stores sometimes have them too.

Christy, if your skate tech was good, you should expect a lifetime of closer to 30 sharpening - more if you do it yourself with hand tools - but maybe not with all the trial sharpenings he has been doing, including changing the ROH, and if my suspicians are right. Such blades are expensive enough that every sharpening is costing you a lot off that lifetime.

I've wondered why more coaches don't take up sharpening, as an extra source of income. They start out knowing more about figure skating blades than most of the hockey players who are usually taken on as skate tech trainees. Most of the ones I've seen that do came from Russia or Eastern Europe.

[Christy]

tstop4me, you are right. I have not used the current generation Matrix. From what I can tell they look pretty similar, except for using screws and glue instead of bolts, but I didn't take measurements. And I've only tried the Berghman sharpener on other types of blade, because I don't use 1/2" ROH. Specifically, a lot of ice rinks throw away their old rental skates, and I picked up some of those to practice on. Though thrift stores sometimes have them too.

Christy, if your skate tech was good, you should expect a lifetime of closer to 30 sharpening - more if you do it yourself with hand tools - but maybe not with all the trial sharpenings he has been doing, including changing the ROH, and if my suspicians are right. Such blades are expensive enough that every sharpening is costing you a lot off that lifetime.

I've wondered why more coaches don't take up sharpening, as an extra source of income. They start out knowing more about figure skating blades than most of the hockey players who are usually taken on as skate tech trainees. Most of the ones I've seen that do came from Russia or Eastern Europe.

The rocker on the previous pair of Matrix blades started to flatten out after about 15 sharpenings, so I was basing it on that. The blades still had a fair few sharpenings but it then took a few sessions to get used to a new pair with a new rocker.

[Christy]

Well a quick update.

After about 6 hours of skating on the fourth sharpening by the temporary sharpener I started to slip / slide / skid every attempt at a 3 turn  and my blades felt really dull. With my proper sharpener my blades lasted at least 60 hours)  so I decided that I had no choice but to try something different. There is another local sharpener that isn't as highly rated, but I figured that they really couldn't be any worse so gave them a try. Not sure how long the sharpening will last, and it's not as good as my proper sharpener but the good news is no sticking, no slipping, and no skidding!

I am fairly sure that the fundamental problem was that the bad sharpener wasn't finishing the blades properly, and they did admit that they didn't finish, but instead of understanding that they kept changing the sharpness and ROH. So frustrating but hopefully I have a temporary solution.

[Bill_S]

Well, that's progress at least.

Let's hope that you can find a permanent solution soon.