JW vs. Martix

[Sarah]

Hey guys!

A while back I decided that I would be getting the JW gold seals for my next pair of blades, whereas I looked at the Matrix Supreme and I am debating whether to get those or stick with the JW. I was wondering if anyone had tried either (or both!!) if they had any input into helping me make this decision

Thank you guys so much!
Stay safe <3
- Sarah x

[Bill_S]

I had skated on Coronation Aces for many years, and tried Wilson Gold seals this past autumn. I felt right at home going from one Wilson-brand blade to another. Spins felt really good on the Gold Seals. They are longer blades than most others out there. The GS are about 1/4" longer than Pattern 99s, for example.

Gold Seals are tapered blades (thicker at the front, thinner at the tail), so they may require special sharpening equipment. Same for the aluminum chassis on the Matrix.

If you are a John Wilson fan but want an aluminum chassis, you might also look into Paramount blades. They have rocker profiles that are exact copies of select Wilson blades.

[Query]

Why bother? If you already use JW blades, it would probably be an easier transition to stay with them. (If you are ready for Gold Seals, you are a much better skater than me, but I found moving from JW and MK blades to Ultima blades a big transition.)

If you've a good skate tech, ask him or her whether tapered blades will be a problem. If he/she doesn't know what a tapered blade is (check), assume he/she can't handle them.

Paramount blades have the same sharpening issues as Matrix, because the place where some blade holders clamp has a non-flat surface. Again, a good skate tech could tell you whether he/she has the right blade holder, and would know what the problem is.

Some people have questioned whether the Paramount blades actually clone the JW and MK rocker profiles correctly, for several reasons. Bill, did you actually check whether the rocker profiles match on the Gold Seals vs a particular modern Paramount model? (Of course, if Sarah hasn't yet used Gold Seals, maybe that won't matter.)

[Bill_S]

I haven't checked their claim myself. The manufacturer makes this specific claim though...

The rocker profiles of the freestyle blades are the same as the Pattern 99, Gold Seal, and Phantom Blades. The profile and width of our Dance Blade is the same as the MK Gold Dance Blade.

They also claim that their CNC process makes profiles with less unit-to-unit variability than JW or MK...

Paramount Sk8s has the only blades on the market with CNC Computer Machined profiled rockers, giving them the highest accuracy, and making every blade precise and identical.

If I ever get my hands on a pair for a few days, I can test those claims.

[Query]

Part of the reason for my own doubts over Paramount's claims is that the profiles of competing brands that they put on their website didn't match the measurements a skate tech I knew had taken on the same blades, or the profile template (no longer available) he got from MK - though that might be because MK and JW blades varied so much from the factory that it was hard for a tech, or for that matter Paramount, to make accurate "ideal form" measurements.

When I and that skate tech took a few profile measurements years ago, Jackson Ultima blades were laser cut (as I think are Paramount blades), and had a lot less variability than MK and JW, but I've never measured Paramount blades.

But I saw something on MK's or JW's website that said they had moved to laser cut blades, so MAYBE there is less variability than before. Anyway, if the Sarah uses a really good skate tech who can reshape the blades to more like what Sarah is used to it seems like there is less risk of a difficult adaption.

I was discouraged from looking at Paramount years ago when I noticed a few broken Paramount blades brought to that skate tech. He said they were only several grams lighter than roughly equivalent but sturdier Matrix blades, and were heavier than the Matrix UltraLite Jackson used to make. But she liked Paramounts well enough to replace the broken ones, so she must have thought them wonderful!

[tstop4me]

To:  Sarah

You would probably get more responses if you ask the forum admin to move this thread to The Pro Shop.  That's the forum in which questions concerning equipment is typically posted.

I went through a similar exercise to yours several years ago.  I had previously skated on Wilson Coronation Ace and Eclipse Aurora. My coach recommended that I upgrade to a Wilson Gold Seal.  I'm not an advanced skater, but I'm fascinated by spins; and the Gold Seal is my coach's go-to blade for spins.  She was not familiar with other blades that are nominally comparable to the Gold Seal, but I explored other options because, after my experience with the Aurora, I wanted a stainless steel blade.

Here are some salient points.

(1) The Gold Seal has several distinctive features, but the most important one is the pronounced spin rocker (small radius) with attendant high heel lift.  The current model Gold Seal also is concave side-honed, and the thickness of the blade tapers toe to heel (thicker near the toepick, thinner near the heel).  There is also a parabolic model, no longer listed on the Wilson website, but still available.

(2) If you want all the features of the Gold Seal, then go with the Gold Seal.  None of the models by other manufacturers that are "comparable to the Gold Seal" have all the features of the Gold Seal.

(3) The Gold Seal is fabricated from plain carbon steel.  If you want a stainless steel blade that's comparable  to the Gold Seal, you have the option of the Ultima Matrix, the Eclipse Titanium, and the Paramount. 

(4) The Ultima Matrix and the Eclipse Titanium models both have flatter spin rockers (larger radius) and lower heel lifts than the Gold Seal.  Since I was mainly interested in the Gold Seal for the spin rocker, I crossed those two off my list.

(5) That left the Paramount model, which has approximately the same spin rocker and heel lift as the Gold Seal.  The Paramount has a standard parallel blade geometry (no concave side honing, no tapered or parabolic thickness variation).  I spoke to two advanced freestylists (also coaches) who had skated on both the Gold Seal and the Paramount.  One thought there was improved performance with the Gold Seal, the other didn't notice any difference. 

(6) The Paramount is available in plain carbon steel, 420HC stainless steel, and 440C stainless steel.   I chose the Paramount in 440C stainless because it holds an edge substantially longer than plain carbon steel.  I personally have not heard from techs and other users of Paramount any stories concerning breakage.  But then again, the only skaters I personally know who have broken blades are hockey jocks, not figure skaters.  So no statistically significant field data on that point.

(7) Both the Gold Seal and the Paramount require the proper sharpening gear and an experienced tech.  Whichever one you buy, be sure to ask the tech that he has the proper gear and experience.

[Isk8NYC]

Admin note: Topic moved to the Pro Shop.

[Query]

Sarah - I'm curious what moves you hope most to improve. It is possible that jumps and spins are optimized best on different blade shapes. And, quite possible, edge jumps and toe-assisted jumps are optimized on different blade shapes too. (Unfortunately, none of the people who have replied to her, AFAIK, are high level jumpers.) Also, there may be anatomical issues - e.g., a person with good flexibility can point their toes more, and probably take advantage better of certain toe pick shapes. If the coach is knowledgeable about such things, perhaps he/she might give the best advice for you.

Do you even live in a place where there is available skating ice now?

I had previously skated on Wilson Coronation Ace and Eclipse Aurora...

I'm not an advanced skater, but I'm fascinated by spins...

I chose the Paramount.

Did changing from Cornation Ace or Eclipse Aurora (which were you using when you switched?) to Paramount blades significantly affect your spins? If so, how? How else did the transition affect your skating?

Which model Paramount blades did you get?

[tstop4me]

Did changing from Cornation Ace or Eclipse Aurora (which were you using when you switched?) to Paramount blades significantly affect your spins? If so, how? How else did the transition affect your skating?

Which model Paramount blades did you get?

(a) I got the Paramount Freestyle 12"; that's the model that's nominally "comparable to the Gold Seal". 

(b) After an accommodation period of about 10 sessions (I'm slow when it comes to adapting to new gear), my spins were more tightly centered, substantially less travelling.  The transition zone from main rocker to spin rocker is more narrow, less forgiving. 

(c) The Paramount has an 8-ft radius main rocker compared to a 7-ft main rocker on my previous blades.  What I noticed immediately was the improved glide.  I was really surprised at the difference.  Previously, I had struggled with completing a lobe of a figure-8 with a single push; often I'd stop short of returning to the start point, or barely crawl back.  With the Paramount, no problem, plenty of speed remaining. 

Also noticeable on backward glides.  During weekday morning sessions, my home rink typically is (or rather, was  ) not too crowded.  One of my regular warmup routines is skating backwards the entire length of the ice.  With the Paramounts the first couple of times, I picked up so much speed that I reached the far end of the rink much quicker than I was used to.  I hit the boards  (fortunately not too hard); not something that happened in a long, long time.

(d) The Paramount has a longer tail.  That also helps with more powerful back pushes.  During drills with back edges and cross-overs, my coach shouts out, "You've got a long blade!  Use all of it! Lean back!"  Back edges and cross-overs improved a lot, according to my coach.

(e) Edge control is one major criterion my coach uses for deciding whether a skater is ready to upgrade.  The more pronounced spin rocker and the narrower, less-forgiving transition zone requires more careful blade placement and edge control for 3-turns, e.g. 

(f) With other blades I've used, if you rock forward, the drag pick will hit the ice and stop you from rocking forward too much.  The Paramount has a high heel lift.  If you rock forward, the blade can scoot backwards before the drag pick hits the ice.  So, again, more careful control needed.

[Query]

So it sounds like it was mostly a great move for you.

I wish there was an inexpensive way to try out different blades.

To me, "less forgiving" would also mean that you can also feel exactly where you are on the blade, somewhat like when I choose to sharpen in such a way as to emphasize the transition, making it more abrupt.

That is a relatively easy change to make (though not one that all skate techs understand), that doesn't waste a lot of metal. If it was the only thing you liked about the new blades, you could have done it to the old ones relatively easily. But it sounds like you also like many other features of the Paramount blades.

I still think the original poster, Sarah, hasn't given us enough data here about her skating to make a good guess about what she would like.

[tstop4me]

So it sounds like it was mostly a great move for you.

I wish there was an inexpensive way to try out different blades.

To me, "less forgiving" would also mean that you can also feel exactly where you are on the blade, somewhat like when I choose to sharpen in such a way as to emphasize the transition, making it more abrupt.

That is a relatively easy change to make (though not one that all skate techs understand), that doesn't waste a lot of metal. If it was the only thing you liked about the new blades, you could have done it to the old ones relatively easily. But it sounds like you also like many other features of the Paramount blades.

I still think the original poster, Sarah, hasn't given us enough data here about her skating to make a good guess about what she would like.

(a) Reshaping the spin rocker is not trivial; and in some instances, depending on the placement of the drag pick, the initial spin rocker, and the target spin rocker, not viable.  Overall, I much prefer the standard construction of the Eclipse Aurora over the two-part (chassis plus runner) construction of other blades with stainless-steel runners.  The only other blades I've found that have standard construction and are fabricated from stainless steel are (1) low-end blades (unspecified grade of stainless steel) used on some Riedell kits; these are not sold separately under the Eclipse line and (2) Skate Science (which have their own profiles and pick designs; I don't know anyone, tech or skater, who has any experience with them).

I first asked my tech whether he would reshape the spin rocker on the Eclipse Aurora.  He said no.  Since Riedell makes custom boots, I asked them whether they would make an Eclipse Aurora with a custom spin rocker.  They said no.  But given the other advantages I got with the Paramount, all worked out well; though I still don't care for the two-part construction.

(b) I simply responded to Sarah's question as posed:  she already decided on a Wilson Gold Seal and was asking about differences between the Wilson Gold Seal and the Ultima Matrix version; that discussion extended to other versions "comparable to the Gold Seal".  She didn't ask whether she should upgrade from her current blade, and, if so, what blade she should upgrade to.  Neither the Gold Seal, nor the Paramount version, is the right blade for everyone. 

[Query]

(a) Reshaping the spin rocker is not trivial; and in some instances, depending on the placement of the drag pick, the initial spin rocker, and the target spin rocker, not viable.

I wasn't discussing altering the entire spin rocker curvature(s). I was discussing reshaping just the transition point (which I call the sweet spot) between the main rocker and the spin rocker curvatures. Some coaches say that the transition point is where you should turn and/or spin, though not all coaches agree. If that transition is abrupt (and/or you create a slight direction change there), you can feel when you are on it. If it is gradual, you cannot. Or at least I cannot.

(Note: Paramount has sometimes claimed that JW blades have two transition points, between 3 distinct rocker lengths. So do some of Paramount's own blades. Doesn't change what I am talking about.)

Anyway, we could indeed probably assume that the original poster wants blades that meet her own needs well with little or no modification. But - we don't know what changes  she wants from her current blades. Does she want to spin better, or jump better, and what changes does she individually need to do that? Is her fine motor control and proprioreptiveness  good enough to use and take advantage of the subtler transition and shorter angular roll to the toe pick (or in terms of what you measure, lessor vertical heel lift) in Ultima profiles? Does she care enough about edge and blade lifetime to prefer stainless? All we know is that she currently uses an unspecified JW model, which suggests that she is currently more used to JW profiles.

One might hope that her coach would be the best one to give the best advice to her, because she/he should know the skater's strengths and weaknesses, is (probably) a more skilled skater, and has more experience dealing with more other skaters, than either of us. We also don't know what skills the skater's skate tech is. All we can do is point out the differences between blades we know of.

The original poster never mentioned Paramount blades. That was your addition. I was merely curious whether they worked well for you. That was relevant partly because you seemed to be pushing them, so she should know whether they actually achieved your goals, and what those goals were. Also I was curious.

[Bill_S]

I was the one who suggested that she look at Paramount early in the thread. That was my addition, not tstop's "attempt to push them". He's a Paramount user, so his experience with them would be valuable information. I'll take that over conjecture any day.

The larger question is if she has been back since she posted that question. I wouldn't take this thread any further along without hearing from her, or this thread will descend into yet another series of "what ifs" and conjecture.

[Sarah]

Sarah - I'm curious what moves you hope most to improve. It is possible that jumps and spins are optimized best on different blade shapes. And, quite possible, edge jumps and toe-assisted jumps are optimized on different blade shapes too. (Unfortunately, none of the people who have replied to her, AFAIK, are high level jumpers.) Also, there may be anatomical issues - e.g., a person with good flexibility can point their toes more, and probably take advantage better of certain toe pick shapes. If the coach is knowledgeable about such things, perhaps he/she might give the best advice for you.

Do you even live in a place where there is available skating ice now?

Did changing from Cornation Ace or Eclipse Aurora (which were you using when you switched?) to Paramount blades significantly affect your spins? If so, how? How else did the transition affect your skating?

Which model Paramount blades did you get?

I am just getting back into my double axel after landing triple sal )

[Sarah]

So it sounds like it was mostly a great move for you.

I wish there was an inexpensive way to try out different blades.

To me, "less forgiving" would also mean that you can also feel exactly where you are on the blade, somewhat like when I choose to sharpen in such a way as to emphasize the transition, making it more abrupt.

That is a relatively easy change to make (though not one that all skate techs understand), that doesn't waste a lot of metal. If it was the only thing you liked about the new blades, you could have done it to the old ones relatively easily. But it sounds like you also like many other features of the Paramount blades.

I still think the original poster, Sarah, hasn't given us enough data here about her skating to make a good guess about what she would like.

One of the main things driving me to lean a little more towards Matrix over GS is that they use stainless steel in Matrix which makes the sharpening last way longer but not only that, carbon steel (that they use in gold seals) isn't resistant to water?! So I am a little confused as to why they would use carbon steel, I was speaking to my dealer of which I am ordering new skates from in the next week and she is checking the factory for Matrix, they have GS available already and so I am now seriously confused as to what to do with regards to my blades.

Like I had jackson blades before and I haven't replaced my skates in ages and so I haven't had to do this kind of research in a really long time haha

[Sarah]

Part of the reason for my own doubts over Paramount's claims is that the profiles of competing brands that they put on their website didn't match the measurements a skate tech I knew had taken on the same blades, or the profile template (no longer available) he got from MK - though that might be because MK and JW blades varied so much from the factory that it was hard for a tech, or for that matter Paramount, to make accurate "ideal form" measurements.

When I and that skate tech took a few profile measurements years ago, Jackson Ultima blades were laser cut (as I think are Paramount blades), and had a lot less variability than MK and JW, but I've never measured Paramount blades.

But I saw something on MK's or JW's website that said they had moved to laser cut blades, so MAYBE there is less variability than before. Anyway, if the Sarah uses a really good skate tech who can reshape the blades to more like what Sarah is used to it seems like there is less risk of a difficult adaption.

I was discouraged from looking at Paramount years ago when I noticed a few broken Paramount blades brought to that skate tech. He said they were only several grams lighter than roughly equivalent but sturdier Matrix blades, and were heavier than the Matrix UltraLite Jackson used to make. But she liked Paramounts well enough to replace the broken ones, so she must have thought them wonderful!

The skate techs in my region happen to not be the best because figure skating isn't the most popular sport here (I live in the middle of the desert) and so... I am even having the company that is going to ship over my skates fully mount them because I just don't have the option to speak to someone with the knowledge of intricate blade work here

[Sarah]

To:  Sarah

You would probably get more responses if you ask the forum admin to move this thread to The Pro Shop.  That's the forum in which questions concerning equipment is typically posted.

I went through a similar exercise to yours several years ago.  I had previously skated on Wilson Coronation Ace and Eclipse Aurora. My coach recommended that I upgrade to a Wilson Gold Seal.  I'm not an advanced skater, but I'm fascinated by spins; and the Gold Seal is my coach's go-to blade for spins.  She was not familiar with other blades that are nominally comparable to the Gold Seal, but I explored other options because, after my experience with the Aurora, I wanted a stainless steel blade.

Here are some salient points.

(1) The Gold Seal has several distinctive features, but the most important one is the pronounced spin rocker (small radius) with attendant high heel lift.  The current model Gold Seal also is concave side-honed, and the thickness of the blade tapers toe to heel (thicker near the toepick, thinner near the heel).  There is also a parabolic model, no longer listed on the Wilson website, but still available.

(2) If you want all the features of the Gold Seal, then go with the Gold Seal.  None of the models by other manufacturers that are "comparable to the Gold Seal" have all the features of the Gold Seal.

(3) The Gold Seal is fabricated from plain carbon steel.  If you want a stainless steel blade that's comparable  to the Gold Seal, you have the option of the Ultima Matrix, the Eclipse Titanium, and the Paramount. 

(4) The Ultima Matrix and the Eclipse Titanium models both have flatter spin rockers (larger radius) and lower heel lifts than the Gold Seal.  Since I was mainly interested in the Gold Seal for the spin rocker, I crossed those two off my list.

(5) That left the Paramount model, which has approximately the same spin rocker and heel lift as the Gold Seal.  The Paramount has a standard parallel blade geometry (no concave side honing, no tapered or parabolic thickness variation).  I spoke to two advanced freestylists (also coaches) who had skated on both the Gold Seal and the Paramount.  One thought there was improved performance with the Gold Seal, the other didn't notice any difference. 

(6) The Paramount is available in plain carbon steel, 420HC stainless steel, and 440C stainless steel.   I chose the Paramount in 440C stainless because it holds an edge substantially longer than plain carbon steel.  I personally have not heard from techs and other users of Paramount any stories concerning breakage.  But then again, the only skaters I personally know who have broken blades are hockey jocks, not figure skaters.  So no statistically significant field data on that point.

(7) Both the Gold Seal and the Paramount require the proper sharpening gear and an experienced tech.  Whichever one you buy, be sure to ask the tech that he has the proper gear and experience.

One of the bigger things for me is that Gold Seal is made of carbon steel and that freaks me out a little hahah but with proper care I think it should be fine, but the sharpening on the matrix apparently last 3-4 times the amount of time it lasts on the GS... I am definitely more of a spinner when it comes to skating, I struggle far more with jumps... I never really considered Paramount blades...

And yes when it comes to sharpening my blades I am pretty sure I am going to have to travel for that kind of care, my current blades are pretty standard parallel blades so it was super easy for my tech to just sharpen them with no problems, but I am not too sure they have the facility to cater to tapered blades

[tstop4me]

One of the main things driving me to lean a little more towards Matrix over GS is that they use stainless steel in Matrix which makes the sharpening last way longer but not only that, carbon steel (that they use in gold seals) isn't resistant to water?! So I am a little confused as to why they would use carbon steel, ....

Wilson has been making skate blades for a long, long time; they proudly trace their heritage back to the 17th century.  Changing over from plain carbon steel to stainless steel would entail changing over many of their fabrication processes and, probably, some of their tooling.  This would require time and money.  So far, they haven't felt the need to do so.  Probably because figure skate blades are a niche market, and there is little competition.

It's a different story with kitchen cutlery, e.g.  At one time Sheffield knives were well regarded.  Many moons ago, I was in London, and dropped in to a specialty cutlery shop.  I'm interested in kitchen knives that I can't get in the States.  I naturally inquired about Sheffield knives.  The salesman gave me a strange look and replied, "Sir, we carry only first quality knives in our shop."  They carried French and German knives.  Since then, Japanese manufacturers have dominated the high-end kitchen knife market.   Most high-end kitchen knives these days are fabricated from stainless steel; though there are some in plain carbon steel.

ETA:  Note that stainless steel is more difficult to sharpen than plain carbon steel.  If you go with Matrix or Paramount, make sure your tech has the proper sharpening jig and has experience with sharpening stainless-steel blades.

[Sarah]

Wilson has been making skate blades for a long, long time; they proudly trace their heritage back to the 17th century.  Changing over from plain carbon steel to stainless steel would entail changing over many of their fabrication processes and, probably, some of their tooling.  This would require time and money.  So far, they haven't felt the need to do so.  Probably because figure skate blades are a niche market, and there is little competition.

It's a different story with kitchen cutlery, e.g.  At one time Sheffield knives were well regarded.  Many moons ago, I was in London, and dropped in to a specialty cutlery shop.  I'm interested in kitchen knives that I can't get in the States.  I naturally inquired about Sheffield knives.  The salesman gave me a strange look and replied, "Sir, we carry only first quality knives in our shop."  They carried French and German knives.  Since then, Japanese manufacturers have dominated the high-end kitchen knife market.   Most high-end kitchen knives these days are fabricated from stainless steel; though there are some in plain carbon steel.

ETA:  Note that stainless steel is more difficult to sharpen than plain carbon steel.  If you go with Matrix or Paramount, make sure your tech has the proper sharpening jig and has experience with sharpening stainless-steel blades.

Oh my days?! For real?! Because I have been told a number of times (bare in mind my region isn't the most knowledgeable with skating as it's not the most common sport) that it is the same difficulty sharpening both carbon and stainless... what makes the matrix supreme AND the gold seal 'equally as hard to sharpen' is the taper

[Query]

Sarah:

Actually, corrosion, including rust, IS the reason, AFAIK, that stainless steel edges typically last longer than high carbon steel edges.

Also, what we are referring to as "stainless steel", namely the alloys (such as 440 stainless) that occur in the highest end figure skating blades, are actually "high carbon stainless" steel alloys. They can be made almost as hard as the highest carbon non-stainless steel blades - and, in order to avoid being made too brittle, they are both softened ("tempered") a little bit after full hardening, down to about the SAME hardness (roughly "Rockwell C" hardness 60, I think), at the edge. The rest of the blade is deliberately tempered even softer.

(That said, I once lost a pair of stainless steel figure skating blades, because a minor flood caused them to stay wet long enough to rust. Stainless does rust, just not as quickly. Marine grade stainless steels, that rust more slowly, are not high-carbon, but can't get hard enough to make good figure skating blades.)

The end result SHOULD be, if I understand this right (I'm not an engineer), that if you did an extremely careful job of drying off your blades, and then covering them with oil or grease, after every use, non-stainless steel edges in theory SHOULD last just as long. There are people who claim that non-stainless steel blade edges last longer - perhaps they ARE that careful.

But most of us aren't that careful. With Stainless steel blades, I mostly just wipe them dry with a towel, and then let them air dry. (I DON'T store them in blade covers, because any moisture that was on them would create rust.) I only oil them if I'm not going to use them for a few days or more. With non-stainless blades, even with the high end blades, I found I needed to be more careful, if I didn't want them to rust.

What I am saying isn't completely consistent with what Paramount claims about the microscopic details of corrosion at https://www.paramountskates.com/blade-info. As I said, I'm not an engineer or metalurgist, and can't fully evaluate what Paramount claims it isn't consistent with what I have read elsewhere.

Regardless, if you get stainless blades, with ordinary level care, they will probably corrode and rust less. I don't understand why MK and JW don't like stainless. Maybe tstop4me is right. Some people get titanium blades, which are lighter and presumably corrode even less than stainless, but I don't know if any of them have a Gold Seal - like shape.

The skate techs in my region happen to not be the best because figure skating isn't the most popular sport here (I live in the middle of the desert) and so... I am even having the company that is going to ship over my skates fully mount them because I just don't have the option to speak to someone with the knowledge of intricate blade work here

I hope your pre-mounted blades balance your feet right! A good skate tech can compensate for various issues by a custom mounting position.

Off topic, but you don't have to travel with your skates to have them sharpened by an elite level skate tech. Many high end skaters - and you are pretty high end compared to many of us - have two pairs of skates. They ship one pair to the skate tech while they skate with the other. Some only have two pairs of blades - which they repeatedly mount and demount, and just ship the blades - but it is very easy to strip the mounting holes if you do that, requiring repair. (Some competitive and show skaters have two pairs of skates for a different reason: in case one pair gets lost or delayed when they travel by air.)

More off topic, A few skaters, like me, and a few coaches, sharpen and and straighten the edges of their blades, using purpose-built hand tools. Bill also bought his own powered skate sharpener. There is a substantial learning curve to doing it yourself - I initially made mistakes which interfered with skating - not a good idea on your new high end blades. But if you learn to do it right, your blades will probably last you several times longer, because you will probably remove less steel / sharpening or straightening with hand tools than even the best skate techs do with power tools, and you can do your own emergency edge repairs. In the middle of that desert, perhaps you could offer your services as a sharpener to other skaters.

[tstop4me]

** My first inclination was not to respond to the previous post.  But I would be remiss if skaters made a decision based on the incorrect statements given there.  I do not plan to pursue this discussion any further, since it is of little interest to most readers here. **

Actually, corrosion, including rust, IS the reason, AFAIK, that stainless steel edges typically last longer than high carbon steel edges.

Also, what we are referring to as "stainless steel", namely the alloys (such as 440 stainless) that occur in the highest end figure skating blades, are actually "high carbon stainless" steel alloys. They can be made almost as hard as the highest carbon non-stainless steel blades - and, in order to avoid being made too brittle, they are both softened ("tempered") a little bit after full hardening, down to about the SAME hardness (roughly "Rockwell C" hardness 60, I think), at the edge. The rest of the blade is deliberately tempered even softer.

(That said, I once lost a pair of stainless steel figure skating blades, because a minor flood caused them to stay wet long enough to rust. Stainless does rust, just not as quickly. Marine grade stainless steels, that rust more slowly, are not high-carbon, but can't get hard enough to make good figure skating blades.)

The end result SHOULD be, if I understand this right (I'm not an engineer), that if you did an extremely careful job of drying off your blades, and then covering them with oil or grease, after every use, non-stainless steel edges in theory SHOULD last just as long. There are people who claim that non-stainless steel blade edges last longer - perhaps they ARE that careful.

But most of us aren't that careful. With Stainless steel blades, I mostly just wipe them dry with a towel, and then let them air dry. (I DON'T store them in blade covers, because any moisture that was on them would create rust.) I only oil them if I'm not going to use them for a few days or more. With non-stainless blades, even with the high end blades, I found I needed to be more careful, if I didn't want them to rust.

(a) There are many grades of plain carbon steel and many grades of stainless steel.  For a specific grade of plain carbon steel or a particular grade of stainless steel, the properties depend on specific thermal and mechanical processing.  So this discussion is limited to high-end steels and processing used by figure skate blade manufacturers; i.e., no generalizations concerning the broad category of plain carbon steels and the broad category of stainless steels.

(b) Edge life (or edge retention) depends on a number of material properties that in turn depend on the material and on the thermal and mechanical processing of the material.  Edge life further depends on edge geometry and on the service application (e.g., for a knife blade, there is a big difference between filleting fish and hacking oxtail).  Depending on the service application, edges can be degraded by one or more mechanisms, such as abrasive wear (a sharp edge gets worn down when rubbing against other materials), deformation (a sharp edge gets smushed when striking a surface), and fracture (a sharp edge chips off when striking a surface).

(c) For figure skate blades, the edges can be degraded by abrasive wear, deformation, and fracture. 

There is abrasive grit on rubber matting surrounding the ice surface.  This will get onto your blades even if you're careful to minimize the amount of time you step on the matting with your blade guards off; grit can also be trapped in the channels of the blades guards.   There is also grit in and on the ice itself (from impurities in the supply water, from grit tracked on by other skaters, from grit tracked on by the Zamboni, ....). 

Abrasive wear can occur during all phases of skating (stroking, gliding, spinning, jumping).  Deformation and fracture are more likely to occur during hard impacts, such as landing jumps; but they can occur in other phases as well.

(d) If a plain carbon steel blade is improperly dried and stored between sessions, and if the edges rust, will the edge life be shortened?  Yes.  Is rust the only factor that potentially affects the difference in edge life between plain carbon steel and stainless steel?  No.

(e) Assuming that a plain carbon steel blade is properly dried and stored between sessions, and assuming no rust develops on the plain carbon steel blade, are there other distinguishing characteristics between plain carbon steel and stainless steel that can lead to differences in edge life?  Yes. Can a stainless steel blade have a substantially longer edge life than a properly dried, properly stored, rust-free plain carbon steel blade?  Yes.

(f) Stainless steel and plain carbon steel have different microstructures.  The differences in microstructure lead to different mechanical properties, which in turn lead to different edge life.  Here is one article that presents a reasonably balanced discussion of plain carbon steel vs. stainless steel for knife blades:  https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/10/carbon-vs-stainless-steel-in-knives/.  The actual scenario is more complex than presented in the reference; and there is back-and-forth debate among various camps, but this is good enough for this discussion.

(g) There are various measured properties (such as hardness, toughness, impact strength ...) that affect edge life.  Note in particular that hardness per se is not dispositive.  Ultimately, edge life needs to be characterized under actual use conditions, or under test conditions that simulate actual use conditions.  I personally have not come across any comparative studies of edge life of figure skate blades.   For knife blades, there are commercial testers that test edge life by repetitively slicing through test samples (such as paper, paper impregnated with silica particles, corrugated cardboard, and rope); one such tester is described here:   https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/.  Other tests subject knife blades to impact tests (such as repetitively chopping different test samples).

(h) As for my personal experience, I carefully dry and store my boots and blades, regardless of the material, between sessions.   With respect to edge life, I've found the Eclipse Aurora 440C to be better than the Wilson Coronation Ace plain carbon, and the Paramount 440C to be better than the Eclipse Aurora 440C.  These are of course isolated results, and I make no claims that they are representative; of particular note, I don't do jumps.

(i) An interesting question that I thought of as I wrote this (but have not looked into) is, Is there corrosion of plain carbon steel edges during skating, and does that lead to a shorter edge life?  But that's an entirely different issue from rust during storage between sessions.

What I am saying isn't completely consistent with what Paramount claims about the microscopic details of corrosion at https://www.paramountskates.com/blade-info. As I said, I'm not an engineer or metalurgist, and can't fully evaluate what Paramount claims it isn't consistent with what I have read elsewhere.

But Paramount makes no claims about the microscopic details of corrosion.  The website you cited doesn't discuss corrosion at all; it discusses wear:

"440C Stainless Steel

....  440C is a high wear material that holds an edge up to four times longer than carbon steel blades. A competitive skater will skate for hundreds of miles a month. Ice impurities cause abrasion, and tiny molecules rub off, causing blade edges to become dull. 440C Stainless Steel lasts longer because the molecules are more tightly bonded and do not wear away as easily as on lesser quality metals. The blade's life and durability is increased dramatically...."

This appears to me to have been written by a marketing guy, rather than by a technical guy.  Some of the nitty-gritty details are off, but the core message concerning wear is nominally correct.  (But note that it doesn't address other factors that can affect edge life.)  And by wear, Paramount means abrasive wear.  That is not apparent from this passage, but more details are given in their video on Manufacturing:  Figure Skate Metals and Manufacturing (https://www.paramountskates.com/videos).  There is a discussion of various blade metals and key properties from ~3:18 to ~6:05 (min:sec) on the video.  The emphasis is on wear; in particular, that hardness by itself is inadequate to characterize wear.  Their abrasive wear tester is described from ~4:44 to ~5:00 (min:sec) on the video.  Note again that, in the video as well, Paramount offers no discussion of corrosion at all.

[Query]

There is another factor that we haven't considered, that matters a lot to some people. The material in high end MK and Wilson blades is beautifully reflective, as is the excellent engraving on them. None of the stainless blades I have seen matched their reflective surface or artistic engraving. Also the brazed joints of high end MK and Wilson blades (though not the higher end Revolution blades...) are simple and clean, whereas Ultima and Paramount blades have a more complex looking joint and shape that I suppose detracts from their appearance, for some people. Blade beauty isn't important to ME, but figure skating is a visual art form.

OTOH, Ultima and Paramount have both produced color tinted blades, which some people love, for reasons having nothing to do with strength or wear.

And of course, if non-stainless blades are allowed to rust, that appearance advantage completely goes away.


I wonder if the amount of friction with the ice could be different for different steels, or titanium. There ARE some published results which claim that lubricated titanium has a significantly lower coefficient of sliding friction with itself than lubricated steel does sliding against steel, so titanium blades MIGHT glide significantly better on ice. But one would actually have to measure the friction created by various sharpened steel and titanium figure skating blades to guess with better certainty, and perhaps the comparison would vary by ice conditions and sharpening technique.

This is wandering way off topic.

Paramount's site has changed since I cited it, or maybe the way cited it arrived at a different page. E.g., the page I found mentioned that steel wore on ice by coming off as "molecules".

It is possible there are electrochemical factors to figure skating blade lifetime on ice. E.g., car manufacturers and others use "sacrificial anodes" to slow down rust and corrosion, because there are major electrochemical factors to each. I have no idea whether any of these blades have something similar. Incidentally, someone who visited the MK/JW factory told me that they tempered and hardened their blades at least partly by electrochemical means, over a period of days, not just by the thermal and mechanical means. I don't know the details, or if it matters.

>As for my personal experience, I carefully dry and store my boots and blades, regardless of the material, between sessions.

But if you don't also oil or grease the blades each time, ambient moisture might still affect the edges. I was taught long, long ago that many steel tools should be kept oiled.

If you don't, that might have biased your results.

My own tests weren't completely definitive either, because I usually only oiled the blades when I wasn't going to skate again for a few days. And I've never done high level jumps, or high level skating, either. I stopped testing when initial, non-exhaustive results showed that stainless steel Ultima Matrix I Dance edges stayed very sharp MUCH longer than non-stainless steel MK Dance edges - FOR ME, under the conditions I used and hand sharpened them. That's a potentially biased sample.

So I'm not absolutely certain a very conscientious skater couldn't treat high carbon blades well enough to do about as well.

The tests I did personally convinced me it isn't true. Your tests tend to confirm my results, but are also a potentially biased sample.

Either MK or JW once said online that their blades were made of a high grade spring steel, which suggests that impacts were a major component of their decision to use what they use, and it's possible that it is important, even though figure skating blade breakages are not so very common. Though that decision was made long ago.

One thing I was told, though this may be out of date, is that metallurgists sometimes spend years getting production details completely right on specific products. For example, when MK and JW first combined and moved to a new facility, I was told by a skate tech that some their metallurgists quit, and that there was a period of about a year when their blade edges were not nearly as hard as they had been, and that his customers complained that those blades needed more frequent sharpening. So maybe for MK and JW to switch to a stainless steel allow, such as 440C, they might have another period of time when their blades weren't as good.

In addition, because some of their current customers believe non-stainless steels are better, they might lose some of them. Faith is just as important as reality in sales.


Do you know anything about hardened titanium alloys?

There are several titanium figure skating blades being made right now.

Possibly because in other applications it corrodes less, possibly because it weighs less for a given strength (which might well be quite important), or possibly because people "think" titanium must be better because it is more expensive. And for all I know, it might be much better - I've never had or tested them.

I did look into the cost of titanium, high carbon steel, and high carbon stainless steel, and they are all less than $1 / blade pair, so I don't think material cost is a the prime determinant - though I don't know how the other costs and times that go into making figure skating blades of each material compare.

BTW, there are published claims that titanium wears much more, and is softer, than steel, though I don't know if that is true of the alloys used in figure skating blades.

Part of the problem for me is that I can find published articles online on such things, but the most informative articles I have found are published by or funded by the companies that sell the materials or products made of them. I don't know how much that biases the claims. And none of the particularly informative ones I found relate clearly to figure skating blades used on ice.

Let alone other skating materials, like "synthetic ices". Because those synthetic ices wear done blades so much faster, material differences might matter a lot to people who skate on them, like some show skaters.

[Bill_S]

Who makes titanium blades?

More specifically, blades with titanium runners?

[Query]

Riedell makes some

  https://ice.riedellskates.com/learn/why-titanium


Jackson Ultima has one series of titanium coated (or plated?) blades

  https://jacksoniceskates.com/about-ultima-blades


There was at least one other company that makes or made titanium figure skating blades, but I would have to do a long web search to find them. I mentioned them on skating forums at least once before.


At one point, MK or JW mentioned that Revolution blades would include titanium on a web page, but that seems to have disappeared, so it probably didn't happen.


That's all I know.

[tstop4me]

Riedell makes some

  https://ice.riedellskates.com/learn/why-titanium

I've corrected your error on this previously.  The Riedell Titanium series uses titanium alloy for the chassis, but stainless steel for the runners.

From the website you cited:

"The lightweight Eclipse Titanium™ figure skating blades have a 100% titanium alloy body with a stainless steel runner."

<<Emphasis added.>>